Tier List Speculation

[GabPR]

Sonic can't punish Bowser's jab on reaction. This is .. problematic for him.

Bowser has to worry about reacting more so than sonic

 

[Frost | Odds]

Pretty sure that goes for most of the cast's jabs, on reaction.

Sure, but most matchups don't have jabs completely walling someone out on the ground. If sonic wants to get in, he has to go up, and that's bad positioning.

Whatever, it's really not worth arguing about. I'm still convinced that this is one of Bowser's few really good matchups.

 

[GabPR]

While I disagree, none of us will be convinced by the other so indeed we should just let this one slide.

 

[Frost | Odds]

MM me at the next major for some silly amount of money if you want, heh. Anyone know if there will be a PM side event at EVO?

 

[Foo]

Sonic has so many mixups he could do against jab. He could run up shield grab, run up roll behind, run up wavedash back, run up fair (not to beat jab, ofc) and much much more,

 

[Ripple]

wario's command grab get's on my nerves more and more. the move is so stupid.

DDD's risk reward ratio for inhale is so bad since he can't move while doing it, does only 10%, and is at frame disadvantage on spit out, and has terrible cool down.

Kirby's seems acceptable since he can't move, can't get punished, and gets a hidden power.

Yoshi's is ok since he gets great stage positioning, ~15%, but they are invincible on break out


But ****ING Wario get's a 50/50 chance to kill characters (except for spacies and maybe 1 other) from anywhere on the stage if they are above 70%, that turns into 100% on non super heavies if they somehow don't have a fart since up-air is as strong as fox's, and then an even higher % to get a guaranteed side-b if they are near the end of the stage because whether he throws me off and I jump to get away from it doesn't matter with some characters AND he has all his aerial mobility during it AND low cool down.

 

[Psyant]

No bias here. Nope, none at all.

http://pastebin.com/98c8a7ej

Bowser/Pikachu 70/30 to Bowser? Pika has a lot of difficult MUs in this game, but I can't say I've ever felt Bowser was one of them.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Everything here about wolf isnt that accurate, other than cc and asdi down on shine being a thing. His entire kit leads into side b kills, that's both his reliable kill setup and his comeback tool, just like other combo heavy characters have.
while his approaching game isn't as strong as the other spacies (due to the blaster changes), the same blaster changes made his neutral very strong and non commital. He puts out hitboxes that he can convert off of easy, taking free stage control/presence while not commiting to anything but the jump and Waveland. It's flexible movement while putting out a combo starting projectile, and while it's clankable, it being clankable forces a response to the opponent and also clank other peojectiles, most often leaving wolf at advantage because he can just wl forward and use the space he just took from them for almost free.
he doesn't have a good approaching aerial like the other spacies have, because nair is multi hit it has no priority and doesn't trade well. Other than that his neutral game is fantastic.
His pressure is just as good if not better than the other spacies. If they shield the nair, it's guarenteed to be a shine unless thry have a frame 1 up b hitbox (it'll trade) or invincibility on frame 1 of an up b, because nair is -1 on shield due to its landing hitbox. Dair is -3 on shield when done perfectly, so that's not bad at all (fox's dair is -8 iirc). He has the same double shine/shine grab game as the other spacies, but he converts stronger off of grabs than falco does, more reliably than fox does, but like Falco he can still convert off shine grab if the shine hits and grab whiffs. The only thing his pressure lacks is a move other than blaster to really force them to shield you.

Combo wise he is still very very undeveloped, but even there's no reason even at this point in his meta for top players to not take stocks in 1-2 conversions. It's a very very silly combo game that works on the whole cast.

His recovery is also leagues above falcos, no charge time (only 5 frames), good hitbox, side b has 3 angles to choose from for even more mixups. Fox has him beat in sheer distance but in difficulty to edge guard wolf's is on par with fox if not the best out of the spacies.

The difference between wolf and lucario/snake is that he is both mobile and has a projectile that nearly plays neutral for him. It's not a fair comparison, because a combo game like snakes is all tech chased based and resets and proper setup, while wolf's is incredibly explosive at any time.

Wolf is crazy, the only thing that could potentially make him not the best spacie is the fact most characters still don't have a response to proper dd and nair shine from fox.

Both wolf's up-b and side-b have way more than 5 frames "charge-time"/start-up. For a better comparison ROB's up/side-b have 5 frames start-up. Both of wolf's are probably in the ~15-20ish frame area

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Ya know @ Ripple , I feel like you're a little too salty about wario, but to be fair, I actually agree with you, bite and fart are pretty phackin stupid. They used to be absolutely ridiculous though, so they've gotten more reasonable. A command grab that's a 50/50 that you can't mash out of, on a character like wario, will always be ridiculous. Also I feel like as long as fart is something that you gain while not being directly in control of getting it's use, will also be amazing.

These 2 moves aren't broken, and it won't be the end of the world if they're left in, but I'm not oblivious, they're stupid moves and you're completely justified for being salty over them.

 

[Ripple]

the whole point of the last patch was "trimming the fat" aka, getting rid of stupid **** on moves that made them absurd.

the fact that there is still a move in the game that can allow a character to do ALL I listed above shows they didn't trim that move enough.

and I'm only salty about the move because my character gets the worst of it from it since it doesn't matter if I DI away or not from 0-40%, wario can either do whatever if I DI in or dash attack/DACUS if I DI away without me being able to jump or shield which Strong bad has done to me multiple times. and then 2-3 hits and boom, if I guess wrong on a bite, I lose a stock

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I agree man, I know first hand how stupid it can be because I main him , and I also know how it is playing against it, because there are 2 other wario mains in TN. I can't do anything about it unfortunately, I got slack from saying that grab box on his ass back in 3.02 was stupid, so no one would listen to me if I said it was still kinda stupid.

 

[skellitorman]

DDD's risk reward ratio for inhale is so bad since he can't move while doing it, does only 10%, and is at frame disadvantage on spit out, and has terrible cool down.

Kirby's seems acceptable since he can't move, can't get punished, and gets a hidden power.

Just wanted to add that Fox is the only character I know of that actually CAN punish Kirby's Copy. Copy abilities are generally speaking not very useful, and but most importantly not worth having over the ability to Kirbycide and/or inhale/release. This is why it is uncommon to see copy abilities ever being used unlike Kirbycide which is common.

Also, most of the cast actually can punish both Kirby's and DDD's starshot with a fair amount of practice, good execution, and timing. DDD's is easier to punish though.

 

[JOE!]

Of course Fox can, he's like the ****ing Mary sue of smash

 

[Deleted member]

Thats something that has come up recently. Roy dtilt is actually better in PM than Melee dtilt, because the tip has more base knockback, and thus leads to more conversions and is generally better against CC. (Its something that was sort of always there but not really something that was talked about, since there were much bigger fish to fry all around.)

As far as dtilt in general, I don't really think its problematic. Its a great move, but its basically unusable against many of the cast (due to strong aerial movement/hitboxes), and its followups are greatly reduced by actually DIing away on hit, something that almost no one is doing atm.

theres a couple minor issues to that though. aerial movement is almost unilaterally solved by proper dashdancing, which is a fundamental aspect to the character anyway and generally involves very little change in strategy on the part of the roy player aside from dtilt being slightly worse and DD being slightly better. having the move be situationally very very good, as opposed to merely still very good but not as good as dashdancing is not an accurate way to portray it. we assume that the players will use their tools to their best purposes, and when dtilt is good it's REALLY REALLY GOOD. the other issue is that since dtilt is generally a non-grab conversion out of DD, the only time you should reliably get the DI away on it is dashdancing away in the DD-based mirror, but its likely in doing so that you are forfeiting a good portion of the stage to do so and DIing off stage is favorable positioning for roy anyway and you're almost better off forcing roy to juggle you and looking for a possible reset to neutral on a platform than you are going off stage. it's rare that you're going to catch an opponent out of the DD, have them DI the hit away, and still be on stage since roy generally wants to ban stages that large anyway. tbh it's already somewhat suspect that dtilt is a reliable conversion tool that's ASDI friendly that both combos well at 0 or combos into the odd bair kills over 100 even without the IASA but i definitely think it should be at least a little longer than it currently is.

 

[jtm94]

Can we all talk about how stupid Luigi is? I am getting tired of people saying his recovery is bad, when he's the only one who can repeatedly make it to the stage like 3 times because SideB is always the same and DownB barely decays. Don't get me started on setting Taunts to special so you can roll your face on it to recover higher than some characters entire jump, double jump, UpB chains go.

 

[Boiko]

Can we all talk about how stupid Luigi is? I am getting tired of people saying his recovery is bad, when he's the only one who can repeatedly make it to the stage like 3 times because SideB is always the same and DownB barely decays. Don't get me started on setting Taunts to special so you can roll your face on it to recover higher than some characters entire jump, double jump, UpB chains go.

Agree and disagree. His recovery goes a great distance, yes, but it's also pretty linear.

 

[Sethlon]

theres a couple minor issues to that though. aerial movement is almost unilaterally solved by proper dashdancing, which is a fundamental aspect to the character anyway and generally involves very little change in strategy on the part of the roy player aside from dtilt being slightly worse and DD being slightly better.

It doesn't matter how good the Roy player's dash dancing is, that won't change the fact that dtilt is nigh useless against characters like ROB/Jiggs/D3/Charizard. Roy has to dramatically change his standard strategy to fight these (and other) characters.
You also ignored the part about "aerial hitboxes" there in my post. Dtilt is simultaneously great and not-so-great against Captain Falcon, because the rewards are amazing if you manage to pin him down and hit him with dtilt, but if you're just throwing it out in neutral he can easily jump over it and cash in massive conversions off of knee/dair or even just poke at you for free with nair.

...we assume that the players will use their tools to their best purposes, and when dtilt is good it's REALLY REALLY GOOD. the other issue is that since dtilt is generally a non-grab conversion out of DD, the only time you should reliably get the DI away on it is dashdancing away in the DD-based mirror...

We also should be assuming optimal level of play from the Roy's opponent, as well, otherwise pretty much anything on any level falls apart. Many aspects of characters are stupidly good if you don't take into consideration the counterplay available to their opponent. Even setting aside the point that the opponent let Roy invade their space with a run in crouch dtilt, they still have the damage control potential to DI away and take very minimal damage.
Additionally, I think its a GRAVE overstatement that dtilt is generally a conversion off of dash dancing. A large number of my dtilt conversions are off of things wavedash in -> dtilt, things like reading a spotdodge, or off of a tech chase (where dtilt is most often the strongest punish). Saying that DIing dtilt away is unreasonable because its usually off of DDing mirrors is handwaving away like 75% of the situations where I actually land dtilts.

...but its likely in doing so that you are forfeiting a good portion of the stage to do so and DIing off stage is favorable positioning for roy anyway and you're almost better off forcing roy to juggle you and looking for a possible reset to neutral on a platform than you are going off stage.

You're forced to forfeit stage positioning against many character's combo set ups. If Marth fthrows you, the best option is to go to the ledge. If Sheik ftilts you, DI away and go to the ledge. Etcetc, pretty much all permutations of combo DI push you offstage and in the situation where you need to fight for getting your ground back. I don't see how Roy dtilt is any different.

 

[MLGF]

Logo, like a good amount of the cast, gets wrecked by swordies. This, along with his poor recovery that can be gimped like no tomorrow, makes him have a pretty damn rough time after a punish.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

wario's command grab get's on my nerves more and more. the move is so stupid.

DDD's risk reward ratio for inhale is so bad since he can't move while doing it, does only 10%, and is at frame disadvantage on spit out, and has terrible cool down.

Kirby's seems acceptable since he can't move, can't get punished, and gets a hidden power.

Yoshi's is ok since he gets great stage positioning, ~15%, but they are invincible on break out


But ****ING Wario get's a 50/50 chance to kill characters (except for spacies and maybe 1 other) from anywhere on the stage if they are above 70%, that turns into 100% on non super heavies if they somehow don't have a fart since up-air is as strong as fox's, and then an even higher % to get a guaranteed side-b if they are near the end of the stage because whether he throws me off and I jump to get away from it doesn't matter with some characters AND he has all his aerial mobility during it AND low cool down.

Wario is strong bad approved

 

[Foo]

Agree and disagree. His recovery goes a great distance, yes, but it's also pretty linear.

it's not even that linear, he has lots of options he can take, and he can also do some ridiculous sweetspots with side-b, he can go high (bad, but very doable), he can go low, or he can go low low low low low low low low. When I play luigi, I like to charge side-b and get really low, then down-b from off screen and sweespot ledge with luigi's absurd magnet hands. I remember people saying that luigi should never get back to stage, but I can barely see how to edgeguard him. He can get tons of distance, an amazing magnet hands sweetspot, can throw out hitboxes constantly, and can recover from basically anywhere without using double jump or up-b so he always has mixups available and you can't edgeguard him by just holding ledge.

I feel like luigi's recovery is actually really good, but you just have to use down-b to the fullest and make use of his options.

I mean, I friggin hate luigi. It's so annoying to play against him, because you have to adjust to the mindset that you can't punish most of his moves because they have no log, especially aerials, you can't combo him without getting punished for it, and his down b makes me want to punch a wall.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Yall making it sound way harder than it actually is.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Bowser/Pikachu 70/30 to Bowser? Pika has a lot of difficult MUs in this game, but I can't say I've ever felt Bowser was one of them.

I'm not sure if it's that bad, but Bowser is really completely not threatened by Pikachu in much the same way that he's not threatened by Sonic. Pikachu's DD isn't quite good enough to get him out of the danger zone, ANYTHING he does out of short hop can and will get stuffed by Bowser's dash attack, and Bowser's probably the only character in the game that can actually edgeguard Pikachu pretty reliably.

I could, of course, be wrong about that one - maybe I'd change my tune if I had to spend an afternoon playing against Axe, but I doubt it - considering iirc he goes Marth against bowser.

 

[Deleted member]

@ Sethlon good explanation, i can agree with all of that.

 

[PKMudkip]

Here's is my Tier List
A:
B:

C:

D:

F:

 

[didds]

@ Sethlon good explanation, i can agree with all of that.

Seeing such a reasonable interaction that ends in such mature acceptance of valid thinking honestly brings tears to my eys.

 

[Plum]

Here's is my Tier List
A:
B:

C:

D:

F:

Wrong game and all... but how can you put Sheik anywhere but top tier in the current Smash 4 meta?

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I'm not sure if it's that bad, but Bowser is really completely not threatened by Pikachu in much the same way that he's not threatened by Sonic. Pikachu's DD isn't quite good enough to get him out of the danger zone, ANYTHING he does out of short hop can and will get stuffed by Bowser's dash attack, and Bowser's probably the only character in the game that can actually edgeguard Pikachu pretty reliably.

I could, of course, be wrong about that one - maybe I'd change my tune if I had to spend an afternoon playing against Axe, but I doubt it - considering iirc he goes Marth against bowser.

Not to discredit Bowsers edguarding, but anybody with big hitboxes can do that since QA generally moves towards the stage, has no priority, and actually has landing lag/no QaC. Honestly I think people don't realize that you just have to put a hitbox by the ledge if h gets knocked far enough. So sure, Pika can survive gimps and can go deep, but his recovery is by no means hard to edgeguard.

 

[mimgrim]

Here's is my Tier List
A:
B:

C:

D:

F:

I think you're in the wrong section.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Wrong game and all... but how can you put Sheik anywhere but top tier in the current Smash 4 meta?

Overwhelming amount of salt

 

[Boiko]

you can't edgeguard him by just holding ledge.

Yes you can.

Yall making it sound way harder than it actually is.

Literally this.

 

[Foo]

Yes you can.

Based on what? He can recover without using his double jump or up-b, so if you just hold ledge you can ledgehop his down-b, be forced to do something to avoid the down-b hitbox, then he can still double jump, if you are still ledge he can aerial you off the ledge (he could also double jump above ledge and waveland) and he STILL has up-b. You guys are acting like it's falcon recovery or something. Holding ledge is terrible against luigi if he uses his recovery correctly.

The only thing that makes luigi vunerable is being able to swat him away because he is slow in the air, and side-b is very intercept-able. However, it isn't always possible to do that, and going out that far is always a risk.

I want to hear some actually reasoning for luigi's recovery being bad because all I've heard is "because it's bad" thus far.

 

[didds]

Holding ledge against any recovery is amazing if you time it correctly. It's free invincibility dog!

 

[Scuba Steve]

Luigi's recovery isn't Falcon bad, but it's fairly linear.

do this
http://youtu.be/UvBWq2q7OKU?t=1m3s
http://youtu.be/cIKfp87q3Uk?t=4m45s

or this
http://youtu.be/cIKfp87q3Uk?t=9m23s

It's not like he's immune from getting edgehogged because he can stall for a while lol

 

[Foo]

Luigi's recovery isn't Falcon bad, but it's fairly linear.

do this
http://youtu.be/UvBWq2q7OKU?t=1m3s
http://youtu.be/cIKfp87q3Uk?t=4m45s

or this
http://youtu.be/cIKfp87q3Uk?t=9m23s

It's not like he's immune from getting edgehogged because he can stall for a while lol

OH! I see now! You guys have no idea what his down-b actually does! It's pretty ridiculous. The mashing seen in these examplse are really really really really REALLY ****ing bad. Try this it at home. With perfect mashing, you can be off the bottom of the screen on battlefield (let's just say as low as you can go without exploding) and then use down-b and make it all the way back up to ledge without using double jump or up-b. Just the down-b by itself will sweetspot ledge (not that you HAVE to go for the sweetspot). Now, you may be thinking, "well, perfect mashing isn't really possible!" but it is, and it's really easy, you just have to adjust your controls. Change every single d-pad input to special, place front knuckle of your thumb on the d-pad, hold down on the analog stick, then quickly move your thumb back and forth on a diagnol with the d-pad. You will get perfect mashing every single time.

(for instance, in the third link, with perfect mashing, he may have even made it up to the leaf.

I can't really find examples recorded, but try it yourself. Sadly, I don't have a setup to record. (@ Frost | Odds make this happen).

Anyway, your examples would be like saying "Zss recovery is really bad! Look at these examples!" And then the examples feature a zss player who doesn't up-b boost, wall jump, double jumps before down-b, doesn't use tether hop mixups and never air dodges onto stage.

 

[N0PE]

Sonic can't punish Bowser's jab on reaction. This is .. problematic for him.

Bowser vs Sonic can actually be a pretty fun matchup for Bowser if you play carefully. I main both and I would rather play Bowser vs Sonic than vice versa

 

[N0PE]

Bowser vs Sonic can actually be a pretty fun matchup for Bowser if you play carefully. I main both and I would rather play Bowser vs Sonic than vice versa

If said Sonic is someone like Wizzy though all bets are off there lol, would probably stick with Sonic for that (but still lose terribly)

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Yeah I agree with Foo, luigi's recovery is way better than people make it out to be, and that guy was absolutely terrible at mashing luigi down b, like "does he actually play this character?" bad.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm kinda coming full circle on Luigi, and the recovery is a big part of it. I also think CSA might be good for him, but it seems like I'm starting to think that about just about everyone.

His matchup against Marth is still industrial-grade BS though.

 

[Akhenderson]

OH! I see now! You guys have no idea what his down-b actually does! It's pretty ridiculous. The mashing seen in these examplse are really really really really REALLY ****ing bad. Try this it at home. With perfect mashing, you can be off the bottom of the screen on battlefield (let's just say as low as you can go without exploding) and then use down-b and make it all the way back up to ledge without using double jump or up-b. Just the down-b by itself will sweetspot ledge (not that you HAVE to go for the sweetspot). Now, you may be thinking, "well, perfect mashing isn't really possible!" but it is, and it's really easy, you just have to adjust your controls. Change every single d-pad input to special, place front knuckle of your thumb on the d-pad, hold down on the analog stick, then quickly move your thumb back and forth on a diagnol with the d-pad. You will get perfect mashing every single time.

(for instance, in the third link, with perfect mashing, he may have even made it up to the leaf.

I can't really find examples recorded, but try it yourself. Sadly, I don't have a setup to record. (@ Frost | Odds make this happen).

Anyway, your examples would be like saying "Zss recovery is really bad! Look at these examples!" And then the examples feature a zss player who doesn't up-b boost, wall jump, double jumps before down-b, doesn't use tether hop mixups and never air dodges onto stage.

The down+B is quite good...
until this happens: http://gfycat.com/WideAliveArcherfish

 

[Chevy]

DownB barely decays

I think I've seen you post something like this before, and I don't think it's true. Luigi's tornado only gives height once I'm 95% sure.