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Tier List Speculation

Beorn

Smash Journeyman
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I don't think Wario is high tier but he's certainly upper mid. Unfortunately you'll notice that every character in Top/High tier either have a good MU vs Fox or literally 1 or 2 MUs other than Fox that they struggle with. Wario is in neither of these categories.

I won't deny your reasoning. Wario does lose to some of the most played best characters. I can see this. I could also say the same goes for a good few of the other characters in upper mid, but this is why I always say marth should not be anything other than high. His matchups against the best characters are good, as they were in melee.

"X character is sooo good! They dont have any bad matchups!" "well, marth"

I don't know how many times I've seen this conversation.
 
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Foo

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At lunchables tier list, I really think marth should be high too. He just sin far too many matchups to be anything but high. I don't think you really need to bump anyone down to make room for him either. atm, you have 12 characters in uppermid and 7 in high.

On a side note, it really says a lot for the balance of this patch that there are so many characters people are generally calling upper mid. but then's there's spacies...
 

Foo

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@ Foo Foo In case you didn't notice, there are non spacies that are considered top tier.
Let's be real here, top tier is generally just the top 5 characters. We all know roy and sheik, and lucario aren't on fox level. Only wolf is on fox level.
 

TheGravyTrain

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The more I try to make a tier list, the more I realize how difficult it is. Like in lunchable's tier list, all the low characters you can make a case for moving up like Pikachu, but there isn't room (or other characters like Luigi or G&W who are underated get shoved to the bottom).
 

Apollo Ali

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Top tier:fox:::wolf::falco::roypm::sheik::lucario:
High tier: :samus2::diddy::falcon::toonlink::rob::yoshi2::ike:
Upper mid tier::mario2::zerosuitsamus::mewtwopm::gw::luigi2::warioc::zelda::sonic::snake::peach::lucas::marth:
Lower mid tier::dedede::charizard::ness2::kirby2::ivysaur::ganondorf::metaknight::squirtle:
Low tier::jigglypuff::pikachu2::link2::bowser2::dk2::pit:
I don't consider these characters until they're fixed: :olimar::popo:

Swapped marth and ike
Swapped squirtle and pit
moved lucas to upper mid

Alright, HOPEFULLY final tier list for now? This actually seems complete.
This is a pretty good list generally.

IMO my two cents which no one asked for:
Overrated (one tier only): Wario, Zelda, Lucas. I agree w/ SB's assessment of Wario. Zelda and Lucas are still to be seen, but I'm not super impressed.
Underrated (also one tier only): Dedede, Snake, Marth. Everyone has always underrated these characters imo.

I'll just explain the two characters I know best (and I am biased because I mained both of them).

Dedede has an pretty good dash dance combined with the absolute best grab in the game (on multiple levels), insane vertical camping + spacing/walling game combined with a command grab mixup, a super underrated zoning projectile, an above average recovery (though punish game against his recovery is HARDLY optimized) AND top 5 edgeguards in the game. His big ol' hurtbox sucks, but we often rate on neutral and DDD actually has this super versatile and weird neutral that opens up a lot of characters in unexpected ways. Very few people understand him I think. He does have a few bad matchups but he goes even with TON of characters. I actually see him going even to positive with all of high tier except maybe Diddy Kong or TL. Everyone else in low mid is smartly placed - they lack in approach in some key way - but Dedede has way more tools than everybody else there.

Link is SUPER underrated. Even if he has some really **** matchups against spacies (and a questionable one against Falcon), his projectiles still gives a large section of the cast trouble in 3.5. He's also never really had elite class representation, even in 3.0. NickRiddle and Wolf were great and all, but idk, I still think he has a ways to go in terms of people fully using his kit.

I'd also switch DK and Ness, but that's just from seeing the struggle bus of Ness in 3.5, where he used to do better.
 
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Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
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After playing against @ Sethlon Sethlon and @ Strong Badam Strong Badam a lot this weekend I really feel IC's are a lot better than people give them credit for. I think they are viable in almost all match-ups sans peach/TL. Keep in mind I was playing with a bug fixed IC's cause the glitch pretty much makes them unplayable, but I don't think their future is a bleak as people make it out to be. I actually thought they were worse before playing SB/Sethlon because I hadn't had the chance to test them out against top level PM talent and could only really theorycraft.
 

Juushichi

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Count me in as a believer of the Climbers. They'll be good when the bugfix drops.

Fumbles got top 32 at BH4 with the 3.02 Climbers and they should only get cleaner from here on.
 

Rizner

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This is a pretty good list generally.

IMO my two cents which no one asked for:
Overrated (one tier only): Wario, Zelda, Lucas. I agree w/ SB's assessment of Wario. Zelda and Lucas are still to be seen, but I'm not super impressed.
Underrated (also one tier only): Dedede, Snake, Marth. Everyone has always underrated these characters imo.

I'll just explain the two characters I know best (and I am biased because I mained both of them).

Dedede has an pretty good dash dance combined with the absolute best grab in the game (on multiple levels), insane vertical camping + spacing/walling game combined with a command grab mixup, a super underrated zoning projectile, an above average recovery (though punish game against his recovery is HARDLY optimized) AND top 5 edgeguards in the game. His big ol' hurtbox sucks, but we often rate on neutral and DDD actually has this super versatile and weird neutral that opens up a lot of characters in unexpected ways. Very few people understand him I think. He does have a few bad matchups but he goes even with TON of characters. I actually see him going even to positive with all of high tier except maybe Diddy Kong or TL. Everyone else in low mid is smartly placed - they lack in approach in some key way - but Dedede has way more tools than everybody else there.

Link is SUPER underrated. Even if he has some really **** matchups against spacies (and a questionable one against Falcon), his projectiles still gives a large section of the cast trouble in 3.5. He's also never really had elite class representation, even in 3.0. NickRiddle and Wolf were great and all, but idk, I still think he has a ways to go in terms of people fully using his kit.

I'd also switch DK and Ness, but that's just from seeing the struggle bus of Ness in 3.5, where he used to do better.
From what I can tell with Zelda, at least 4 matchups went from good to bad in this last patch, and none went from bad to good. I honestly don't think any matchups got better, but I haven't played them all so idk. I would agree that she's higher in that last than she should be. I'd almost consider switching her with link, but that might be a bit too much.
 

The Baron

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So what's the rationale behind Link and Pit being bottom tier?
I dunno about pit but link just feels meh to me. It's easy to get in on him and once you're in he can't do anything because his best tools, projectiles, become horrendously unsafe and he can't outfight anyone in that close of proximity. He can't exactly run away either so that's a negative too. Also he's easy as balls to edgeguard once you stop being intimidated by all the slashing and battle-cries he makes when he goes for the ledge and tether changes don't help in this regard either.
 

Rizner

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Zelda didn't gain any bad MUs. Some even got better. I can use dins against Sonic now.
You could before, too. I feel like ivysaur, and Luigi at least are now bad matchups (which used to be in her favor). Mk feels harder as well (probably from about even to in his favor), and sheik plus other already high tiers (relevant matchups that you'll likely meet in bracket everywhere) got worse.
 

GP&B

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I'm not seeing it. Maybe Ike just hasn't been optimized enough yet (because ideally he should be a tech chase monster with QD), but idunno. esplain yourself lunch.
 

Soft Serve

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Top tier:fox:::wolf::falco::roypm::sheik::lucario:
High tier: :samus2::diddy::falcon::toonlink::rob::yoshi2::ike:
Upper mid tier::mario2::zerosuitsamus::mewtwopm::gw::luigi2::warioc::zelda::sonic::snake::peach::lucas::marth:
Lower mid tier::dedede::charizard::ness2::kirby2::ivysaur::ganondorf::metaknight::squirtle:
Low tier::jigglypuff::pikachu2::link2::bowser2::dk2::pit:
I don't consider these characters until they're fixed: :olimar::popo:

Swapped marth and ike
Swapped squirtle and pit
moved lucas to upper mid

Alright, HOPEFULLY final tier list for now? This actually seems complete.
Lucas being so low was my only gripe with your list, I'd get behind it as a roughly standard list till things settle more

Edit: yeah I don't like the ike/marth switch, put them back.
 
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Strong Badam

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I'm not seeing it. Maybe Ike just hasn't been optimized enough yet (because ideally he should be a tech chase monster with QD), but idunno. esplain yourself lunch.
Ike is really good for sure, just not sure if he's that high. But that's probably splitting hares; I'd have him within 5 spots of where Lunchables has him most likely, which is par for the course in deviation of PM tier lists to be honest.
 

GabPR

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Although its not all perfect, but good thing about pm balance is that the worst characters are at least mediocre and not bad. Sure with the strengths of other characters it makes them seem worse, but compared to other smash games pm has few if any truly dominant matchups. When people start having more trouble doing a definitive tier list, it means the balance is getting where it needs to be.
 

jtm94

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You could before, too. I feel like ivysaur, and Luigi at least are now bad matchups (which used to be in her favor). Mk feels harder as well (probably from about even to in his favor), and sheik plus other already high tiers (relevant matchups that you'll likely meet in bracket everywhere) got worse.
The horse is dead.

Ike is pretty good. The best things he has are his throws, but I honestly think he gets tossed by high tiers due to the speed of his aerials.

Luigi is the man. Keep an eye on him.
 

The_NZA

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This is a pretty good list generally.

IMO my two cents which no one asked for:
Overrated (one tier only): Wario, Zelda, Lucas. I agree w/ SB's assessment of Wario. Zelda and Lucas are still to be seen, but I'm not super impressed.
Underrated (also one tier only): Dedede, Snake, Marth. Everyone has always underrated these characters imo.

I'll just explain the two characters I know best (and I am biased because I mained both of them).

Dedede has an pretty good dash dance combined with the absolute best grab in the game (on multiple levels), insane vertical camping + spacing/walling game combined with a command grab mixup, a super underrated zoning projectile, an above average recovery (though punish game against his recovery is HARDLY optimized) AND top 5 edgeguards in the game. His big ol' hurtbox sucks, but we often rate on neutral and DDD actually has this super versatile and weird neutral that opens up a lot of characters in unexpected ways. Very few people understand him I think. He does have a few bad matchups but he goes even with TON of characters. I actually see him going even to positive with all of high tier except maybe Diddy Kong or TL. Everyone else in low mid is smartly placed - they lack in approach in some key way - but Dedede has way more tools than everybody else there.

Link is SUPER underrated. Even if he has some really **** matchups against spacies (and a questionable one against Falcon), his projectiles still gives a large section of the cast trouble in 3.5. He's also never really had elite class representation, even in 3.0. NickRiddle and Wolf were great and all, but idk, I still think he has a ways to go in terms of people fully using his kit.

I'd also switch DK and Ness, but that's just from seeing the struggle bus of Ness in 3.5, where he used to do better.
I'll go ahead and agree with my cousin on all accounts. And point out at Flex Zone, Aklo took out DJ Nintendo, The Moon, Envy, and Shiny Zubat with Link. He was double eliminated by Poob.

Also, Poob ran train on so many people, with several 0 to Kills on Professor Pro and StereoKIDD. DK has kill confirms out of grab on every cast member regardless of weight, and the ability to combo nearly everyone either through cargo uthrow dairs, or chained uairs and keeping them above him. His neutral game isn't great, but it isn't terribad either. He has good grab range and great pokes and range on his aerials, not to mention his jab-jab, is one of the best. For kills, he can reliably count on grabs to dk punch at really wide percent margins, uthrow uair on platformed stages like BF/FoD/YS, and he has up b OOS which is so strong. His main downside is his recovery sucks, but if we truly believe that at higher skills, punishgame/edgeguard game becomes optimized, then I'm not sure having a poor recovery is the worst thing if you have a punish game that reliably kills on all stages against all weight classes.

Also, cargo walk off is a pretty insane comeback mechanic when he needs it.

Meanwhile, for Ness, you can point out that StereoKIDD got 5th and went really far, going as far as to take out Seagull Joe. But I'd argue (and will keep arguing) that Ness truly is bottom tier. His neutral game is absolute garbage, and when people get the matchup experience they need, they won't get caught by fair into grab, or tomahawk grabs. Stereokidd got most of his kills and leads off of miss teched dairs into jab resets, which are insanely good at the current skill level people are playing at.

But if opponents know to expect the dair and meteor cancel, or techroll after getting hit by them, or buffer roll/getup attack after the jab reset, Ness's punish game falters SO quickly. His recovery is also mistakenly purported as being "top 5", and was done so even at Flexzone, alongside the commentator point that it has "like 20 frames of invincibility at the start", but this recovery is still mid tier at best. Its startup is extremely long, it has 6-8 frames of invincibility at the start (i forget which), which helps you punish a bad approach timing but doesn't do much beyond that, and it has 20 frames of lag hwen you land on the ground. 20 Frames is a LOT of lag...people always try to intercept pkt2, but you can just as easily just grab ledge, waveland on stage, and start charging a fsmash where you think Ness is going to land (or in fox's case, an usmash).

Ness is efficient for tacking on damage, and he has a good punish game when platforms are involved, but he is bonafide bad. Only player inexperience allows him to thrive and look like the monster he is. He also has major problems with a lot of cast members.

For example, Ness can punish fast fallers pretty well, but he sucks v. Floaties, failing to have any good kill leadins beyond a random DJC aerial in neutral (short range), or Usmash after 150%. Ness sucks v. high mobility characters that he cant run circles around. Ness sucks v. characters equipped with disjoints (all swords). Ness sucks v. Characters who can't be gimped easily. Ness sucks v. Characters who control space extremely well with projectiles. And he sucks v. characters with good OOS options (whether its a quick aerial or a grab).

If any opponent has a set of the above, it is usually a losing matchup for Ness. When you consider all of that, you begin to realize how he's definitely worse than some of your listed low tiers, including DK.
 
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Beorn

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I'll go ahead and agree with my cousin on all accounts. And point out at Flex Zone, Aklo took out DJ Nintendo, The Moon, Envy, and Shiny Zubat with Link. He was double eliminated by Poob.

Also, Poob ran train on so many people, with several 0 to Kills on Professor Pro and StereoKIDD. DK has kill confirms out of grab on every cast member regardless of weight, and the ability to combo nearly everyone either through cargo uthrow dairs, or chained uairs and keeping them above him. His neutral game isn't great, but it isn't terribad either. He has good grab range and great pokes and range on his aerials, not to mention his jab-jab, is one of the best. For kills, he can reliably count on grabs to dk punch at really wide percent margins, uthrow uair on platformed stages like BF/FoD/YS, and he has up b OOS which is so strong. His main downside is his recovery sucks, but if we truly believe that at higher skills, punishgame/edgeguard game becomes optimized, then I'm not sure having a poor recovery is the worst thing if you have a punish game that reliably kills on all stages against all weight classes.

Also, cargo walk off is a pretty insane comeback mechanic when he needs it.

Meanwhile, for Ness, you can point out that StereoKIDD got 5th and went really far, going as far as to take out Seagull Joe. But I'd argue (and will keep arguing) that Ness truly is bottom tier. His neutral game is absolute garbage, and when people get the matchup experience they need, they won't get caught by fair into grab, or tomahawk grabs. Stereokidd got most of his kills and leads off of miss teched dairs into jab resets, which are insanely good at the current skill level people are playing at.

But if opponents know to expect the dair and meteor cancel, or techroll after getting hit by them, or buffer roll/getup attack after the jab reset, Ness's punish game falters SO quickly. His recovery is also mistakenly purported as being "top 5", and was done so even at Flexzone, alongside the commentator point that it has "like 20 frames of invincibility at the start", but this recovery is still mid tier at best. Its startup is extremely long, it has 6-8 frames of invincibility at the start (i forget which), which helps you punish a bad approach timing but doesn't do much beyond that, and it has 20 frames of lag hwen you land on the ground. 20 Frames is a LOT of lag...people always try to intercept pkt2, but you can just as easily just grab ledge, waveland on stage, and start charging a fsmash where you think Ness is going to land (or in fox's case, an usmash).

Ness is efficient for tacking on damage, and he has a good punish game when platforms are involved, but he is bonafide bad. Only player inexperience allows him to thrive and look like the monster he is. He also has major problems with a lot of cast members.

For example, Ness can punish fast fallers pretty well, but he sucks v. Floaties, failing to have any good kill leadins beyond a random DJC aerial in neutral (short range), or Usmash after 150%. Ness sucks v. high mobility characters that he cant run circles around. Ness sucks v. characters equipped with disjoints (all swords). Ness sucks v. Characters who can't be gimped easily. Ness sucks v. Characters who control space extremely well with projectiles. And he sucks v. characters with good OOS options (whether its a quick aerial or a grab).

If any opponent has a set of the above, it is usually a losing matchup for Ness. When you consider all of that, you begin to realize how he's definitely worse than some of your listed low tiers, including DK.
Bruh, you can't be like "Alko took out all these people with link" and "poob rekt with 0 deaths and dk is this and that" Then say " Stero kid got top 5! But that's because people dont know how to fight ness and hes still bottom tier"

That's super bias, because I would say the exact same thing about link. People aren't fighting him correctly. IDK about DK. You can't deny he has an amazing grab with free followups. This is a big deal.
 

The_NZA

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Bruh, you can't be like "Alko took out all these people with link" and "poob rekt with 0 deaths and dk is this and that" Then say " Stero kid got top 5! But that's because people dont know how to fight ness and hes still bottom tier"

That's super bias, because I would say the exact same thing about link. People aren't fighting him correctly. IDK about DK. You can't deny he has an amazing grab with free followups. This is a big deal.
The difference is I watched all of the games StereoKidd had and Poob had, and I can tell you Poob's punish game [EDITED] could not be prevented by simple adjustments, and his low percent kills, like cargo uthrow - DK punch or uthrow to uair/fair and other quick 60%-deaths on Prof Pro were pretty guaranteed.

StereoKIDD's punish game was NOT guaranteed and were all poor reactions to high damage traps that do in fact telegraph themselves. So yeah, I think I can legitimately make that comparison, as someone who plays POOB regularly, and who is a Ness main.

As far as Aklo goes, I didn't see many of his games, but Link clearly has a insanely powerful grab game, high damage combos that can result in 50% damage off of 2-3 hits, Kill options, and a good neutral game. He struggles against certain character classes but performs really well against a large portion of the cast. He's a solid character. His recovery is his only large weakness.

Note that I said Ness can actually punish fast fallers and semi fast fallers extremely well, so they get screwed pretty hard when they mess up their counterresponse to his punish game. Hence why I can see why Seagull Joe lost, and also why Hax lost to StereoKIDD back at GUTS. Doesn't take anything away from StereoKIDD for optimizing so well, but it doesn't change my overall view of the character.
 
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The_NZA

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Apr 7, 2007
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I'm also not convinced Wolf is top tier... His aerials aren't nearly as safe on shield as fox/falco, and his neutral isn't nearly as disgusting either. His punish game may surpass theirs, but he struggles for kills much harder than they do, and he's not much harder to edge guard than falco. I don't see him being S class, or on the fox/falco tier. I think Marth is better than him.
 

N0PE

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Not saying I disagree with the current proposed list, but why are Ness and Ganondorf so low?
Just curious.
 

POOB

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and I can tell you Poob's punish game was guaranteed, as were his 0-deaths on Prof Pro.
Whoah whoah. DK doesn't have guaranteed 0-deaths. If you watch any of my 0-deaths they all involve a series of reads. Dk gets a guaranteed hit out of cargo up throw, not a guaranteed 0-death. If it was that easy, you'd see a lot more DK's out there. Dk's punish game is BARELY better than it was in melee. Every positive thing you mentioned about DK was something he had in melee, except for the jab combo. Coming from someone who has sent Irish Mafia's peach to losers last time i went to a melee tournament, I would like to think that my win against Aklo was due to me playing the best I've ever played as opposed to DK being underrated. Just wanted to (cargo) throw that out there lol.

Also, wobbling exists in melee, yet ice climbers still are pretty bad in top level play. This is cause its a lot harder than it looks to get as many grabs as I(and top level melee icies) get and to do it so consistently is another thing

Lastly, I'll let this one slide Nyle since you said POOB had guaranteed 0-deaths, which is a true statement. DK, however, does not ;)
 

Strong Badam

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I think his punish game is notably better than Melee's, but he certainly doesn't have guaranteed 0-deaths on any character. They require resets, reads, or edgeguard interaction, if they're even possible. He legitimately cannot 0-death most floaties on most stages even with reads.
 

The_NZA

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Whoah whoah. DK doesn't have guaranteed 0-deaths. If you watch any of my 0-deaths they all involve a series of reads. Dk gets a guaranteed hit out of cargo up throw, not a guaranteed 0-death. If it was that easy, you'd see a lot more DK's out there. Dk's punish game is BARELY better than it was in melee. Every positive thing you mentioned about DK was something he had in melee, except for the jab combo. Coming from someone who has sent Irish Mafia's peach to losers last time i went to a melee tournament, I would like to think that my win against Aklo was due to me playing the best I've ever played as opposed to DK being underrated. Just wanted to (cargo) throw that out there lol.

Also, wobbling exists in melee, yet ice climbers still are pretty bad in top level play. This is cause its a lot harder than it looks to get as many grabs as I(and top level melee icies) get and to do it so consistently is another thing

Lastly, I'll let this one slide Nyle since you said POOB had guaranteed 0-deaths, which is a true statement. DK, however, does not ;)

Sorry, I exaggerated. He can set up 0-deaths on characters very well, with cargo uthrow to dair into reads, but I meant moreso that he can end a stock on a lot of weight classes between 60%-90%, which I think is a very good thing in a game with this many characters. Many of your dair grabs on Prof Pro, and your punish game are very hard for a player to get out of unscathed (especially if there's a platform they are techrolling on top of). Meanwhile, a lot of Ness's punish game that Stereokidd was displaying can be countered easily with a few option selects that people aren't taking advantage of (such as always tech rolling Ness's DJC dairs, and option selecting getup attack and rolls out of the jab resets).

Your wins were not all the character or anything--you are playing the character extremely well. However, I don't think DK is in the bottom most tier. I think he has a lot going for him, especially in his punish game to low % kill game. There's no real character dk either struggles to combo or kill. Meanwhile, Ness does infact lose a lot of his potency depending on the matchup.

At the very least DK is low mid, but I could see an argument for him being a little higher due to his versatility against the weights presented in teh cast.
 
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N0PE

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The way you guys post makes the bottom tier sound horrible. I just find them mediocre.
I think when building a tier list you sort of have to look at a top-down approach, meaning determining the top tiers and then ranking the rest with respect to their MUs against top tiers. I could be totally wrong though.

With respect to top tiers, bottom tiers can be pretty bad or near unviable in some situations. A strong bowser player will 9 times out of 10 get bodied by a strong fox or falco player for instance.
 

Strong Badam

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Sorry, I exaggerated. He can set up 0-deaths on characters very well, with cargo uthrow to dair into reads, but I meant moreso that he can end a stock on a lot of weight classes between 60%-90%, which I think is a very good thing in a game with this many characters. Many of your dair grabs on Prof Pro, and your punish game are very hard for a player to get out of unscathed (especially if there's a platform they are techrolling on top of).
You're aware that DK's Dair is meteor-cancelable, right? Last time I fiddled around with it in frame advance, DK gets rested by Jiggs until later percents, as an example. Heavier characters can punish him for much longer. Only like 2 players have ever meteor canceled it vs me (one being @ Hylian Hylian ) but if the meta ever develops to that point DK's "scary" punish game gets much more flimsy. One of many reasons I dropped the character; the future I saw for the character was only a decrease in success, not an increase.
 
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D

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I think his punish game is notably better than Melee's, but he certainly doesn't have guaranteed 0-deaths on any character. They require resets, reads, or edgeguard interaction, if they're even possible. He legitimately cannot 0-death most floaties on most stages even with reads.
you 0-death'd me 4 times in the same match without any resets or reads or edge guards.

;_;
 

Strong Badam

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Nope, DK can't do that vs Sheik. You had to have teched or gotten Cargo F/Bthrow read.
 

POOB

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 23, 2013
Messages
221
Btw @ The_NZA The_NZA , im gonna go all Ness at SG this week just for fun. This way I will be able to empathize with you about how bad he actually is lol
 
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