Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

You can't be a decent character if you thrive off of being a 1 game CP to yoshis

no but you absolutely can be a good character if you walk away from all of your sets 2-1 instead of 2-0. bowser might lose to DL4 just like marth does but he definitely has more redeeming aspects than people give him credit for.

 

[Fight for Piece]

Oh my god what happened to ivysaur. And why is kirby so low? Chudat so troll with him.

 

[Deleted member]

I can't accept bowser as a decent character with his mediocre neutral game and ability to lose to the purple button that says "Z"

 

[Foo]

Oh my god what happened to ivysaur. And why is kirby so low? Chudat so troll with him.

Tether nerfs happened to ivysaur. Rip in peace

(Also, a lot of other small nerfs and some not small ones)

 

[Deleted member]

Ivysaur was infuriating to fight in 3.02 because all she did was ledge camp, get an u throw, auto combo or up b and kill at 80%, repeat

I'm ok she's bad now. Less stress I have to deal with.

 

[Sethlon]

Did you ever get the "Roy's dtilt is absurd" yet?...

Thats something that has come up recently. Roy dtilt is actually better in PM than Melee dtilt, because the tip has more base knockback, and thus leads to more conversions and is generally better against CC. (Its something that was sort of always there but not really something that was talked about, since there were much bigger fish to fry all around.)

As far as dtilt in general, I don't really think its problematic. Its a great move, but its basically unusable against many of the cast (due to strong aerial movement/hitboxes), and its followups are greatly reduced by actually DIing away on hit, something that almost no one is doing atm.

 

[Deleted member]

I dare you to DI my d tilt away

my dacus is waiting for you mere mortals

 

[JOE!]

A lot of people sleep on Zard I think. We just have like.... 7 mains total so theres not much exposure lol

 

[The Baron]

Can we talk about marth for a second as I've been having a similar sentiment shared by some others in the thread but wanted to get more info and see if other's are noticing the same thing. On paper, it feels like marth has the tools to win just about every matchup but I think he's too reliant on playing absolutely perfectly. Like, matchups that he should win on paper he doesn't win in practice due to the fact that if he drops the combo, misses a tech, or just does one tiny thing wrong, he just loses his chance to take a stock and more often than not, dies for it. And the fact that other characters in PM like roy, wolf, and even bowser don't have this constraint of having to play absolutely perfectly just to take off one stock feels as though he's objectively worse. Don't get me wrong, he's really ****in good if he doesn't make mistakes, but I think that's exactly what makes him kind of bad in a way. I dunno, I'm just kind of rambling at this point but I wanted to get a second opinion.


Also is lucas actually bad now or are people freaking out over absolutely nothing. I feel the latter personally.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Can we talk about marth for a second as I've been having a similar sentiment shared by some others in the thread but wanted to get more info and see if other's are noticing the same thing. On paper, it feels like marth has the tools to win just about every matchup but I think he's too reliant on playing absolutely perfectly. Like, matchups that he should win on paper he doesn't win in practice due to the fact that if he drops the combo, misses a tech, or just does one tiny thing wrong, he just loses his chance to take a stock and more often than not, dies for it. And the fact that other characters in PM like roy, wolf, and even bowser don't have this constraint of having to play absolutely perfectly just to take off one stock feels as though he's objectively worse. Don't get me wrong, he's really ****in good if he doesn't make mistakes, but I think that's exactly what makes him kind of bad in a way. I dunno, I'm just kind of rambling at this point but I wanted to get a second opinion.


Also is lucas actually bad now or are people freaking out over absolutely nothing. I feel the latter personally.

Basically, what you're saying is that Marth relies too much on his execution and reads. That seems legit.
Marth does rely on playing the matchup a lot more often than not.

Lucas is fine. Offense Up did need that nerf, Lucas players could get really braindead with the old charge time, now partial charges are more important and the players need to use the rest of his tools to actually set up his OU finishers.
Didn't play him much in 3.5 though, but it doesn't look that he was nerfed that bad.

 

[shairn]

Well, you can either play really crisp or be really persistent.
If only Marth's sword was made of tips.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

If only Marth's sword was made of tips.

He'd be really rich or really broken.

To be honest, while I think Lucas is ok, I'd like to know how well he's doing matchup wise. Is he around the same tier or did he get worse?

 

[mimgrim]

Here's another bad tier list made by yours truly out of boredom.

No ordering within the lines and the bigger the gap between the different lines the bigger the difference between those groups of characters.










I think that's everyone. Also, I avoid using arbitrary labels for a reason as they misrepresent what I mean. I don't feel like writing a whole thing why I put who where so if you want to know something about it just ask and I'll answer as best as I can. But take everything I say with a couple spoons of salt.

 

[Deleted member]

I know this is all opinions but...

God, thats such a bad tier list. I'm super mega butthurt right now

 

[Zoa]

I'm waiting for the day when Lucario play has been explored thoroughly some years after the final patch. The salt will be real.

 

[The Baron]

He'd be really rich or really broken.

To be honest, while I think Lucas is ok, I'd like to know how well he's doing matchup wise. Is he around the same tier or did he get worse?

I can't give tiers but based on the precious few matches I've seen of 3.5 lucas, he seems around the same to me as far as matchups go, he just combo's a little slower and has to be more divers in his recovery, but I could be completely wrong and he is actually olimar tier. Don't really know for sure yet.

I'm waiting for the day when Lucario play has been explored thoroughly some years after the final patch. The salt will be real.

Dude, that'd be so hype

 

[mimgrim]

I know this is all opinions but...

God, thats such a bad tier list. I'm super mega butthurt right now

Das the point.

 

[Jacob29]

You should tell half the UK that Bowser sucks a fair few of us think he is like top mid tier.

 

[N0PE]

You should tell half the UK that Bowser sucks a fair few of us think he is like top mid tier.

Bowser is fantastic. Sure he's combo food in some MU's but a few well spaced attacks and Bowser works well. He has plenty of tools compared to his Melee iteration as well (my favorite being jump-canceled grounded Down+B).

 

[Jacob29]

Err gee thanks for telling me, a Bowser main, about the tools Bowser has?

I am well aware of Bowser's tools, but I think Odds was right when he said all of us suck. So I think Bowser is probably a little better than bottom of the barrel tier.

 

[N0PE]

Err gee thanks for telling me, a Bowser main, about the tools Bowser has?

I am well aware of Bowser's tools, but I think Odds was right when he said all of us suck. So I think Bowser is probably a little better than bottom of the barrel tier.

Lol I was just pinning your quote and informing the general public of Bowser's awesomeness. Nice to meet a fellow Bowser main though
I agree he's certainly not bottom, but certainly not high tier.

 

[Frost | Odds]

What's the deal with DK? Why is he typically rated so low? What are his matchups like? I know, like, his moveset and nothing else about his meta or anything. Similar spread to Zard? To Bowser? The character makes no sense to me.

And yeah, bowser is better than anyone understands/realizes in some ways, and way worse than most people understand in others. Trying to impress upon the locals that he really does get hard countered by the Z button is impossible, because they're all so rooted in their terrible habits.

 

[N0PE]

I'd argue that DK outperforms Bowser in a few regards. While he is also potential combo-food due to his bulk, DK has a few more recovery options than Bowser (ability to stall his fall with side+b in the air, for instance) and has more combo options (is chaining UAirs a combo lol).

Correct me if I'm wrong though, I prefer Bowser over DK but I still think DK would be in a higher tier.

 

[Strong Badam]

dk's okay, his archetype is just kind of outperformed by others. he shares strengths and weaknesses with other characters who don't have as limited a recovery and better approaching aerials, like ike and roy.
i dont really use him much anymore because he's never dominant or strong in a relevant MU, he either goes even with or loses to most chars. which is okay and there are bound to be characters that can be described like that in a balanced game, just makes me less likely to use him personally.

 

[mimgrim]

You should tell half the UK that Bowser sucks a fair few of us think he is like top mid tier.

But then the person fighting against Bowser figures out the grab button exists. GG no re.

 

[N0PE]

But then the person fighting against Bowser figures out the grab button exists. GG no re.

THEN they figure out there's 3 grab buttons. RIP in pesos

 

[TreK]

What's the deal with DK? Why is he typically rated so low? What are his matchups like? I know, like, his moveset and nothing else about his meta or anything. Similar spread to Zard? To Bowser? The character makes no sense to me.

Well his whole design is about having a sub-par neutral game in order to have a well above average punish game. He's your typical grappler.
But because of the way the game works, he won't profit of his punish game all that much against floaties, and everybody already deals a lot of pain to fast fallers so it doesn't make much of a difference.
His neutral game is... well simply kinda dull, the only outstanding thing about it is how easy it is for him to perfect shield projectiles. No really dangerous pokes or approaches that you have to respect, and no projectiles. The moves that are the most likely to be used as pokes are bair, ftilt and dtilt, and they don't really combo into anything in particular. That's why it's kinda sub-par, although it's in no way terrible.

On top of that he suffers from typical big guys problems : he's supposedly a tank except his recovery is extremely easy to snowball so if he takes a bair at 80% he probably won't touch the ground until the next stock, and the big hitboxes come at the cost of big hurtboxes that get him combo'd hard.

So yeah I'd sum it up by saying that he's got strengths that don't really matter.
You can probably still do good with him, but it's harder to look like a good character by PM's standards.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Well his whole design is about having a sub-par neutral game in order to have a well above average punish game. He's your typical grappler.
But because of the way the game works, he won't profit of his punish game all that much against floaties, and everybody already deals a lot of pain to fast fallers so it doesn't make much of a difference.
His neutral game is... well simply kinda dull, the only outstanding thing about it is how easy it is for him to perfect shield projectiles. No really dangerous pokes or approaches that you have to respect, and no projectiles. The moves that are the most likely to be used as pokes are bair, ftilt and dtilt, and they don't really combo into anything in particular. That's why it's kinda sub-par, although it's in no way terrible.

On top of that he suffers from typical big guys problems : he's supposedly a tank except his recovery is extremely easy to snowball so if he takes a bair at 80% he probably won't touch the ground until the next stock, and the big hitboxes come at the cost of big hurtboxes that get him combo'd hard.

So yeah I'd sum it up by saying that he's got strengths that don't really matter.
You can probably still do good with him, but it's harder to look like a good character by PM's standards.

That's pretty accurate. Too bad he's got no command grabs to work like a proper grappler and his mostly horizontal only recovery in a heavy-weight character is just bad. If he could only rise a bit more with his Up-B maybe he wouldn't be that bad, but right now, DK's nothing to write home about.

 

[Deleted member]

Top tier
High tier:
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low tier:
I don't consider these characters until they're fixed:

Swapped marth and ike
Swapped squirtle and pit
moved lucas to upper mid

Alright, HOPEFULLY final tier list for now? This actually seems complete.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

Top tier:
High tier:
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low tier:
Might as well still be in dev build:

Swapped marth and ike
Swapped squirtle and pit
moved lucas to upper mid

Alright, HOPEFULLY final tier list for now? This actually seems complete.

Highly plausible.

 

[_A1]

Someone explain why Wolf is top tier, cause I'm not quite seeing it yet.

 

[Strong Badam]

loonchables tier list:

underrated: mario, pit, kirby, link, meta knight, probably marth, don't think dk is that bad either
overrated (all slightly imo): ike, g&w, luigi, mewtwo

overall very solid list imo

 

[Deleted member]

I put marth in high tier earlier, but I don't know. I think maybe he could go back? I don't know if I agree on Mario/Pit/Kirby/Link. Metaknight might go up as well?

Also ike/gnw/luigi/mewtwo are great where they currently are.

 

[MLGF]

I gotta say, Ike players are doing well right now and they have some killer results.
Whether it's due to us having a mostly unchanged meta (and a lot less salt) then some other characters, or because Ike is really high tier, since all the stuff that ate him before is neutered, is unknown. Although, I'd say it's a mix, but when the dust settle's he'll still be in the top percentage of characters.

 

[trash?]

metaknight, when compared to the greater recovery options of PM, has about the same "people he can edgeguard like a god : people he can't edgeguard like a god" ratio as he did before. his recovery's still top five at worst, and while going back to brawl dair meant he doesn't have a get out of jail card at all times, it only emphasises how good he is at edgeguarding even harder, because current dair is fantastic for popping nerds off-stage

 

[Deleted member]

Ikes side b is stupid

sorry ike players, its the truth.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Top tier:
High tier:
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low tier:
I don't consider these characters until they're fixed:

Swapped marth and ike
Swapped squirtle and pit
moved lucas to upper mid

Alright, HOPEFULLY final tier list for now? This actually seems complete.

Agreeable. I might have to drop Samus though. Can't get used to play her knowing she's high tier. What happened? Metagame shifts or is she actually good?

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

I viewed the list like this:

Spoiler

S | Top
A | High
B | Upper Mid
B-/C | Lower Mid
D | Low Tier
F for the unfortunate

And the roster balance doesn't seem bad at all. Lower Mid and Low could use some tweaks here and there, but 3.5 ain't bad. I can't wait to see how this shapes up after the bug(Olimar)fixes.

 

[Beorn]

Top tier:
High tier:
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low tier:
I don't consider these characters until they're fixed:

Swapped marth and ike
Swapped squirtle and pit
moved lucas to upper mid

Alright, HOPEFULLY final tier list for now? This actually seems complete.

I think top, Lower mid, and low are perfect. It's kinda hard to say about High and upper mid. Characters could go either way. Like I would say Wario or G&W (Or yeh mario strongbad) could very well be as good as Yoshi and Tink. Other than that

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't think Wario is high tier but he's certainly upper mid. Unfortunately you'll notice that every character in Top/High tier either have a good MU vs Fox or literally 1 or 2 MUs other than Fox that they struggle with. Wario is in neither of these categories.