Tier List Speculation

[Bleck]

it's certainly not the only problem, but I'm hesitant to believe that any of the others could be reasonably addressed by anybody who believes that the shine is okay

 

[PootisKonga]

there's no other move in the game that's so versatile, and it's faster than everything else in the game while having virtually no commitment (doesn't put you into special fall, can be jump canceled, a perfectly jump cancel-to-wavedash'd shine puts you back in neutral position faster than most attacks in the game)

like I don't understand how pointing out how the shine literally does everything except help with his recovery is your argument for how it's not the problem with his moveset

False
It does help his recovery slightly (more via occasional mixups than actual recovery distance though) due to the aerial stall

All Shine really doesn't have is range

 

[Paradoxium]

Yea my phone glitches out before I was done and posted it before I was done so ima just drop it

 

[Fight for Piece]

I do believe this, yes - if anything, 3.5 is the biggest example in the history of PM of Fox (and Falco, to a lesser extent) being allowed to have tools that the PMDT (and the community at large) believe are otherwise unacceptable

I currently believe that the PMDT and the community believe things about the game at large that contribute negatively to the game's overall health and will ultimately undermine the long-term viability of PM as a competitive game

there's this guy that goes by the name Mango

Mango wins because he is mango. Not because Fox is too strong. You can choose to believe otherwise.

Patch 3.02
Nothing changed with Fox.

Patch 3.5
Everything was pretty much nerfed or changed to feel more like Melee (I guess if you want you can perceive this as a buff... maybe? if you're that much of a **** but its probably you know.... fanservice... what this whole game is about... you know... so that fox players can transition between Melee/PM properly and comfortably).

Smash
-Up Smash damage decreased 18 -> 17, BKB 30 -> 26, KBG 112 -> 108.

Aerials
-Neutral Aerial animation adjusted for right leg positioning.
-Forward Aerial damage on later hits reduced slightly to account for lack of damage staling after the first hit on multi-hit attacks.
-Up Aerial damage on 1st hit reduced by 1 to account for lack of damage staling after the first hit on multi-hit attacks.

Specials
-Neutral Special (Laser)
--Fast Fall can no longer be triggered with C-Stick input.
--Fixed bug where rear 2 hitboxed on laser were deleted.
-Up Special (Firefox)

Simply put, Firefox has been ported in every way from NTSC Super Smash Bros. Melee.
--Startup: Removed subaction 0.90x initial H multiplier.
--Dash: Decay begins 2 frames sooner from 6 to 4.
--End: Can now fastfall, animation lasts one frame longer. Grounded animation adjusted to match interrupt.
--Special Fall: Max H Mobility multiplier increased from 0.85x to 1.00x.
--Fixed a bug where Up Special hitbox terminated 3 frames too early.

Others
-Dash Attack TransN value has been matched to Melee values.
-Final Smash (Landmaster)
--Fixed bug where Landmaster warped in air.

Just because they don't nerf him to the ground instantly doesn't mean it isn't slowly happening. It's hard to balance a character that people have been playing for 10+ years without having to drastically change his play style hurting those who main him hard. On the same note, it's not like fox is getting any stronger.... come on guys wtf.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

We.Know.This.Stuff.

Why.Is.it.right?

 

[Bleck]

Mango wins because he is mango. Not because Fox is too strong.

haha sure whatever you say

 

[Fight for Piece]

haha sure whatever you say

Let me rephase. Mango wins because Mango has mastered fox. Sethlon wins because Sethlon has mastered Roy. You get my point? People win because they are good at their characters, not because those characters are overkill op and need nerf on their A, B, C, D, and E attacks. Sure fox is strong, definitely not the weaker of the roster but he isn't ultra mega crazy broken nor is he getting any stronger which is where this conversation started. Balancing him, but without destroying the "fox" playstyle.

EDIT: You can't just kill shine. It's like if in SF5 Ryu has no hadouken. Its like wtf? It's not even ryu anymore. You gotta be considerate to Fox mains.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Ok, we all know that Fox needs nerfs. However, we must understand the position of the PMDT about Fox and more importantly, what kinds of nerfs could be used to make Fox more manageable without changing his play-style.
It's not like they aren't members of this forum too, so positive criticism and good ideas can help. Whining and saying things like "OP Fox is OP. Nerf him to the ground." are not positive criticism.

 

[Juushichi]

Hi. We are already aware of numerous things about Fox and the role that he plays in the current version of the game and its future. I think it would be slightly more fruitful to discuss other things in this thread. Whether to change Fox or not for future versions is not exactly relevant to "Tier List Discussion" and probably would deserve its own thread.

Does anyone have any tier lists to post?
Characters who seem to be on the rise?
Characters who seem to be on the fall?
Overrated characters of this version?
Underrated characters of this version?

These are not just questions I'm interested in seeing other users' answers to. They are also completely in line and relevant to the thread topic. : )

 

[Bleck]

you heard him, folks - talk about which characters you think are good without necessarily talking about which characters are good

go on, he's waiting

 

[Vashimus]

Whining and saying things like "OP Fox is OP. Nerf him to the ground." are not positive criticism.

Except no one actually says this.

 

[Deleted member]

I already supplied my tier list and it pretty much ended up being the one 99% of people here agree'd on

I guess I'm godlike and you should all worship me

 

[PlateProp]

Hi. We are already aware of numerous things about Fox and the role that he plays in the current version of the game and its future. I think it would be slightly more fruitful to discuss other things in this thread. Whether to change Fox or not for future versions is not exactly relevant to "Tier List Discussion" and probably would deserve its own thread.

Does anyone have any tier lists to post?
Characters who seem to be on the rise?
Characters who seem to be on the fall?
Overrated characters of this version?
Underrated characters of this version?

These are not just questions I'm interested in seeing other users' answers to. They are also completely in line and relevant to the thread topic. : )

But Fox is the tier list PMDT Senpai!

 

[Juushichi]

you heard him, folks - talk about which characters you think are good without necessarily talking about which characters are good

go on, he's waiting

You are a fantastic poster who absolutely got the meat of what I was saying with my post.

Thank you. : )

 

[Deleted member]

yo lets argue about how zss is really good and then some zss player can come in and complain

err I mean toon links 19% boomerang is very balanced

 

[Soft Serve]

Yeah so lists, interupting spacie talk for more spacie talk. Reasoning in spoilers, feel free to pick things apart, discussion is good
Top tier:[ because it matters]
High tier:
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low tier:
Bottom tier:
Olimar's tears:

Talk/explanation:
I based the top 15 or so on rough MU spreads (only super confident on supplying accurate MU spreads for Diddy, wolf, and fox, if anyone really wants lists), then started getting vaguer and more into theory as I went down, with a few exceptions of characters I'm really familiar with (like ness). MU spreads are the most important, because characters can be god damn stupid broken like Luigi, but still lose a lot of important MU's just because of they way the characters work. This is more about current meta and understanding of the characters, with some theory of future optimization splashed in for a couple characters (ZSS, Yoshi, Luigi, etc)

So Top tier. [ because it matters]

Spoiler

Spacie tier+shiek. I think these 5 are the best characters, enough to be in a grouping slightly above the others. The biggest thing people will probably wonder is why I put Wolf over Fox.

Wolf over Fox: Wolf has a better MU spread, hands down. He wins most MU's just as hard or harder than the other spacies, and the only MU's that are slightly not his favor are falco and samus. There are a couple MU's he doesn't win harder than Fox (GnW, Diddy, for examples) but other than GnW(even) he still wins all the MU's. Fox also has losing MU's in PM other than slight falco, such as DDD. Not many, but enough for me to think Wolf has a slight edge over Fox.

Shielda is a thing. You have access to both MU spreads of the character at any given time, and choosing to dual main the two characters gives you an edge over other dual mains in that you can switch character mid match. Even if Zelda performs better than sheik in one MU, the combined MU spread would therefore be better than just sheiks, so sheilda's will always be at least slightly better, and can't be worse. I put it in brackets because some people still deny it should count.

Transitioning from sheilda to sheik. I have lower opinions of shiek in Melee (overrated character, loses at least 4 of the MU's in the top 8, roughly even with 2), but I think she is very very strong in PM. Most characters just can't approach her if they aren't fox or don't have a great projectile. This is a character that has the ability to wall out Fox, and characters like Kirby, Lucario, ZSS, Roy, etc have to find a way in on her. If you don't have the approaching abilities of a spacie, or speed+projectiles on par with Diddy/Mario/tink, you lose neutral hard. She just shuts down so much of the PM cast from getting to play their game. Then throw on Crawls, easier power shielding, great CC game. Shiek's approaches lose too CC at higher %'s, but she shouldn't need to approach because she converts off Anti-airs, grabs, CC's, and whiff punishes. Really good character, has more losing MU's than wolf/fox though, so 3rd.

Roy is so good, like damn. Damn.

Falco is still really good, but the dair nerfs created so much more counterplay for the opponent to deal with his approaches. you can anti-air late dair attempts before he hits the button, and just shield>any good OoS options to convert off his approaches. doesn't help that he still dies in one hit, with the worst recovery among the spacies, in a game where people hit harder and gimp deeper. Still has a significantly better MU spread that a lot of characters, enough for him to be in top tier as opposed to starting high tier. But has even more counterplay, with losing MU's now and not just a ton of even MU's. More characters are able to do what peach did in melee, ie take up that air space where falcos lasers fall short, more characters have outs to his pressure and projectiles, everyone kills him in 3 hits.

High tier.

Spoiler

These characters are real good. Samus/Diddy/Lucario/Tink were already really good, but only Diddy really got to shine publicly in 3.0 (other than lunchables and esam). Now they all either have more commitment attached to their design, or in the case of Samus, SDI changes to make certain things not free, and bug fixes to stop her from just ignoring shields all the time with bomb>aerials on shield (they ignored shields >.>). Falcon is still falcon, with less **** to wade through, so he gets to show off how stupid he is now more.

Samus is really good still. I thought at first when 3.5 dropped that she got hit too hard, but really all that changed were a few minor things that didn't detract from her core playstyle. She still has up-b OoS which is crazy good (gets out of all of Wolf's sheild pressure, blows up falco due to nerfs, fox still has to do frame perfect nair shines to cover it) and is important vs more than just spacies. Probably still loses to Fox in PM (tether changes make gimping her like, 3x less challenging than in melee) but I think she beats the other two spacies slightly, while being incredibly solid all around vs the rest of the cast. Great CC game, doesn't care too much about CCing against her, solid combo game, great projectile game, good on nearly every stage, great CP game. Crawl is also incredibly strong, shrinks hutboxes, has access to her full kit/cc near instantly.

Diddy. I could talk for days about Diddy (I do) but Diddy is still fantastic. All that got thrown onto him was commitment on a few tools, and he has marth syndrome now, worse than marth gets it. He has a decent number of even MU's, but beats most of the cast, losing to only Spacies, Samus, and Peach. Thats a damn good MU spread on a character who already has immense number of tools for nearly every situation. Arguably the best OoS option in PM (glide tossing, man), doesn't care about CC at all because he converts off grabs, side-bs, and trips+whiff punishes. Fast, flexible, best item in the game, one of the strongest neutrals. nearly broken good bair (although its one of his only good hitboxes), still fantastic character. His MU spread + his stupid flexible tool kit makes him an easy top 10 character.

Lucario is really good. Usable projectile, good burst movement (which he can spend resource on to convert off it faster), good general mobility, good throws at low%'s, option selects, and great combo game. His counterplay is there, but once he starts going in on you the counterplay changes from "abuse his lacking approach game" to "React better than Taj and SDI perfectly or eat 60+% and give him more meter." Lucario is silly. not broken, but silly and really good.

Falcon. "Shiek Dthrow>fairs, she gets booed. Falcon dthrow fairs and everyone loses their ****." Falcon's actually bad MU's are probably only Spacies + other lock down/rush down characters. everyone else he just takes to a bigger stage (because he can) and just DD around you, not approaching (because he can't/doesn't have to) and kill you with 1-2 conversions. Good character, top 10. Salt/hype inducing. I hate him.

Tink is really good too. Converts off projectiles he can spawn while running away, if you can't catch him whelp good luck. 19% boomerang too. exploitable recovery, but his neutral and punish game is very strong and simple to be effective with, with intricacies mixed in to optimize it and create traps to catch people doing smart things. He doesn't have many bad MU's. I'm not a tink expert, but I think he his strong enough to be top 10, and better than the characters below him.

upper mid:

Spoiler

Upper mid is full of characters that are still great, but not as strong as the high tier characters. Mario is the same character as before, just some slight tweaks that tamed some of his unhealthy traits. ZZS is so good, and has so much potential left to develop. She's a new character, very good vs most of the cast but crumbles to faster characters/characters that control hoizontal better than her. Yoshi is amazing. I hope his shield never gets fixed because if he had melee parry he'd be top 5. Crazy character, only held back by struggling with rush down and some projectiles. Lucas is still lucas, just has to work a bit harder and make better choices to take stocks, and doesn't have broken, felxible recovery anymore. His shield pressure took a hit, but he can still threaten your shield with a disjointed jcable magnet. Putting him in top 15 is very reasonable. Rounding out top 15 is ROB. Rob has enough tools to deal with nearly every MU, but recent tourney results have people over evaluating him, like putting him top 5.
M2 is still really strong, hard to play and has actual MU's now, because he doesn't install win neutral. Struggles with floaties like in melee, but tp and hover fill a lot of holes in his punish game from melee. WD dtilt got even better. Gnw is Soooo gooodd. Like damn, if he didn't get bopped by swordies so hard he'd be higher. Marth works too hard in every MU for less reward than other characters, and doesn't beat fox in pm due to Stagelists and banning. Luigi is a broken little **** with untapped horizontal control potential, thankfully projectiles and spacies exist. Wario is also really really solid, but imo his bad MUs are all characters that are better than him so he struggles vs good/common picks.

Lower mid is full of great characters with flaws and problems. Have some bad traits that can make them struggle vs characters in the top 10.

Low tier characters are still good, but honestly struggle vs most of the cast. Big uphill battles vs everyone above them.

Bottom tiers are pit olimar +fatties. Pit/olimar got over nerfed, fatties are still bad.

Updating my list. I underated a lot of characters, overrated a few (after playing more lucas I realized just how much of his stuff just doesn't work anymore)

No real order in tiers this time.
Top tier:
High tier:
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low tier:
No one plays them, bugged, dont feel like I evaluate them properly (Really Bad though)(Probably Upper MID tier)

My list doesn't fit a nice bell curve anymore but I think it's reasonable. Squirtle is kinda crazy, although has like 3 issues that keep him from being too good imo ( bad dash[inability to immediately threaten space directly in front of him quickly without doing some weird turnaround ], needs a lot of space, approaches get shut down easy by good anti airs with disjoints)

I had lucas too high. He's still great, but he lost too much to be a high tier.
DDD/zelda were underrated in my previous list too.

Ike is still meh, marth will never be better than top 15 at best

 

[Deleted member]

Rob isn't anything lower than high tier
sonic is upper mid
ike is definitely higher than low mid tier, don't know if upper mid or high tier
Uhh... theres a few more things I want to point out but I'm not 100% sure of them yet.

 

[supascoot]

Updating my list. I underated a lot of characters

Man you still have Snake in lower mid tier.

Aside from that I feel that its a really solid list, esp. now you aren't caring about orders.

Rob isn't anything lower than high tier
sonic is upper mid
ike is definitely higher than low mid tier, don't know if upper mid or high tier
Uhh... theres a few more things I want to point out but I'm not 100% sure of them yet.

This too, and maybe some characters like Marth and Zard are a bit underrated

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Why is Marth so low compared to Roy?

 

[Deleted member]

I've said this so many times, but I'm down to say it again

Marth suffers significantly more from his marth syndrome in this game due to new heavies/floaties, and bigger stages. Roy on the other hand can convert more off of non-grab conversions due to his AMAZING Down Tilt. It combos into itself, grabs, kill moves, and combos, and other things like his ridiculously low KBG u air means he can combo forever. Also having a kill aerial means he consistently kills at 120%-130%.

 

[PlateProp]

Updating my list. I underated a lot of characters, overrated a few (after playing more lucas I realized just how much of his stuff just doesn't work anymore)

No real order in tiers this time.
Top tier:
High tier:
Upper mid tier:
Lower mid tier:
Low tier:
No one plays them, bugged, dont feel like I evaluate them properly (Really Bad though)(Probably Upper MID tier)

My list doesn't fit a nice bell curve anymore but I think it's reasonable. Squirtle is kinda crazy, although has like 3 issues that keep him from being too good imo ( bad dash[inability to immediately threaten space directly in front of him quickly without doing some weird turnaround ], needs a lot of space, approaches get shut down easy by good anti airs with disjoints)

I had lucas too high. He's still great, but he lost too much to be a high tier.
DDD/zelda were underrated in my previous list too.

Ike is still meh, marth will never be better than top 15 at best

You arent wavedashing if you dont think he can threaten things infront of him without using shellshift

 

[Soft Serve]

You arent wavedashing if you dont think he can threaten things infront of him without using shellshift

I said immediately
I mean the space above /in front of him. His dash jump is meh, I'm saying he doesn't have a good tool to cover that air space that like, rob/peach would approach from if he didn't have time. Wavedash ing helps for mid/longer distance but just dash jump >move has poor range and speed

 

[PlateProp]

I said immediately
I mean the space above /in front of him. His dash jump is meh, I'm saying he doesn't have a good tool to cover that air space that like, rob/peach would approach from if he didn't have time. Wavedash ing helps for mid/longer distance but just dash jump >move has poor range and speed

Have you tried Super RAR Bair?

Because you can literally cross 2/3rds of every stage in about two seconds.

With an invincible tail hitbox.

Edit: Just get on the hangout so we dont clog the thread

 

[LittleFoxBot]

I already supplied my tier list and it pretty much ended up being the one 99% of people here agree'd on

I guess I'm godlike and you should all worship me

I'll still curious about Lucario's placement.

 

[Deleted member]

Lucario is one of the few examples where his punish game makes him insane instead of neutral. Lucario has a limitless punish game due to his street fighter style, along with other **** like his multipliers for how he gains aura

he gains 1.2x aura on hit and 0.6x on shield. He gains aura for hitting shield! Thats ridiculous!!

He can also just negate shields since he can space smash attacks vs them and just down b away. And I'd also like to point out that lucarios neutral game isn't as bad as people say. He has a pretty good dash dance, a decent projectile, can challenge shields very well, and he doesn't do too bad vs CC'ing if you just press the B button immediately after hitting them. IPK just does moves vs people and instantly presses B afterwards to hit them with the charge hitbox, then repeat.

 

[Paradoxium]

Hell yea man preach it

**** YOU LUCARIO

 

[InfinityCollision]

Even in this thread many people aren't mentioning fox in the top 3.

I'm not sure I've seen a single tier list in this thread post-3.5 that didn't feature Fox as top 3, and I fully agree with that placement.

So here's a question: what 5 characters do you think will have the most unrealized potential during 3.5? Not just right now, but all the way through to the next update.

 

[steelguttey]

Ike is still meh

lol

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah... have to agree with steelguttey here. Ike and Marth are both pretty solid, although roy is still the best of the 3.

 

[Foo]

I'm not sure I've seen a single tier list in this thread post-3.5 that didn't feature Fox as top 3, and I fully agree with that placement.

So here's a question: what 5 characters do you think will have the most unrealized potential during 3.5? Not just right now, but all the way through to the next update.

Pit, Squirtle, icies, G&W, and Fox (because you can't spell top five without fox)

 

[steelguttey]

ness is probably up there as undrealized potential

dude can do some dumb ****, i take back him being lower mid

 

[~Dad~]

Reminder that squirtle players are bad, and no good.

 

[Deleted member]

Squirtle is actually one of the most gimmicky characters in 3.5

Why the hell does he low profile half of the cast but then have a tech roll so bad that you could probably taunt cancel and then punish

 

[~Dad~]

Squirtle is actually one of the most gimmicky characters in 3.5

Why the hell does he low profile half of the cast but then have a tech roll so bad that you could probably taunt cancel and then punish

His tech roll makes me cry every time.

 

[Jacob29]

bowser is underrated due to all of us not being very good players.

we working on it yo

 

[steelguttey]

also he ****ing sucks

 

[Deleted member]

No... bowser actually just sucks

He's not good. Sorry.

 

[Deleted member]

No... bowser actually just sucks

He's not good. Sorry.

i'm not so sure actually. i think his CP options are really really good and that goes a long way in real sets.

 

[Deleted member]

You can't be a decent character if you thrive off of being a 1 game CP to yoshis

 

[Rᴏb]

Bowser is the worst character in the game. He's good against the Falco matchup and that's it.

ZSS is gahlike. after I read the "Petition to restore ZSS thread", I decided to mess around with her and HOLY **** she is good. She is quick as ****, has good projectile, a tech chase, great range, great neutral and a good recovery (when it wants to work). Her punishes aren't as braindead in this version, but she is still completely capable of good ones. She honestly reminded me of Fox in a lot of ways.