Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

I won't say specific things but
Roy was basically a 3.02 mewtwo back in dev build, and sethlon saved us from that. Thank him.

 

[Player -0]

Did he have a fire on EVERYTHING?

I would take that.

 

[CORY]

firetrail from dashing.

actually, from walking.

sounds legit.

 

[Ripple]

that gives me the idea that white pikmin should cause a sphere of poison around olimar. more white pikmin, more poison damage.

 

[Foo]

Also, purple pikmin should always latch onto you giving you metal suit fall speed.

@Sethlon That assessment sounds fair. I don't think many people are putting him higher than 6 anyway. I'd say he's probably 7 or 8, personally.

 

[Ace55]

I won't say specific things but
Roy was basically a 3.02 mewtwo back in dev build, and sethlon saved us from that. Thank him.

Now if only someone had saved us from Mewtwo.

 

[Deleted member]

Mewtwo was actually even more broken in dev build, he was nerfed before the release of 3.02. Obviously not enough though.

 

[MLGF]

Can't leave it that vague.
I must knooowwww

 

[Ace55]

Mewtwo was actually even more broken in dev build, he was nerfed before the release of 3.02. Obviously not enough though.

So the dev build was pretty much Brawl- at that point?

 

[PlateProp]

Like 90% of my work with Roy has been "X is absurd, we need to tone this down, significantly" lol. Seriously, this character was pretty nutty back in development.


This is pretty much my thought on the matter. Roy is really solid and has some great traits, but never being able to kill fatties and huge stages amplifying that can make him rather miserable, and dying to a light wind offstage to top that off, will make it so he's never truly a dominating top tier. Somewhere around 6-12th place, IMO.

I know, I've heard stories about how you didnt even want Roy's dair to be a spike, was just a joke

 

[Fight for Piece]

Like 90% of my work with Roy has been "X is absurd, we need to tone this down, significantly" lol. Seriously, this character was pretty nutty back in development.


This is pretty much my thought on the matter. Roy is really solid and has some great traits, but never being able to kill fatties and huge stages amplifying that can make him rather miserable, and dying to a light wind offstage to top that off, will make it so he's never truly a dominating top tier. Somewhere around 6-12th place, IMO.

Did you ever get the "Roy's dtilt is absurd" yet? Because I get that a lot from the players I play against and every now and then when I think about it, I agree. In Melee dtilt was Roy's bread and butter. It was already a decent attack, because of so many reasons. I can see why the PMDT tried to replicate it for Project M as a juggling set up/combo starter because it just felt like 'Roy'. But in Melee, dtilt could only do so much because of Melee Roy's moveset ending with an Fsmash as probably the strongest possibility. In PM however, Roy now has reliable combo finishers like bair and dair (which is even crazier now in 3.5) and dtilt->fair->dtilt->fair->Fsmash or dtilt->X at lower percentages can rack up damage quickly. If you think about it, Roy's dtilt was also indirectly buffed by the dair change in 3.5. Additionally, non-sweet spot dair in terms of combo starting is like an aerial dtilt too. I am wondering because i'm trying to learn more, is there a reason that Roy's dtilt or some of the follow up attacks should be immune to a slight nerf in hitstun or something after what I proposed?

I don't want to say that the PMDT are doing a bad job at balancing/making the game, no. Of course not. They are doing an amazing job. This is one of my most favourite games ever. I just want to have more understanding of the PMDT choices when nerfing/changing parts of a character. Even if Roy has weaknesses, those should be his weaknesses. His strenghts can't be too absurd or Roy and maybe the game itself will center more around counter-picking which as far as I know is not something the PMDT wants to achieve??

Note: I'm not some salty butthurt guy who loses to Roy's all the time. I'm the only Roy in my area and this is what other players feel when they play vs me.

 

[Bleck]

I don't want to say that the PMDT are doing a bad job at balancing/making the game, no.

I do, though

 

[Fight for Piece]

I do, though

Elaborate? Currently the game is not 100% balanced. No game is. It is not as balanced as lets say SF, but the mechanics of SF are completely different. You do damage with attacks and kill by actually reducing their HP to 0. Balancing a game like Melee/PM is extremely hard because othere are so many factors to take into account like knockback, knockback growth, character weight, fall speed, movement in the air, stage control, recovery options, attack trajectories, stages, damage, hitstuns etc. It's not like street fighter where there are universal rules for characters like you can attack once in the air, this can be cancelled into special and etc. And the "damage" in Smash bros. isn't technically "damage". You don't kill with damage you kill with blastzones. You kill in so many different ways like walling someone out, ledgehogging, blasting them. It's not just do damage to each other. It's exceptionally hard to balance a game like this and I think the PMDT are doing a great job working on it.

 

[Bleck]

Elaborate?

http://projectmgame.com/en/characters/fox

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

http://projectmgame.com/en/characters/fox

Hard to argue with that. It's like Fox was intentionally made to be the best. And 3.02 showed us what happens if everyone gets balanced to Fox level.

However, aside from extreme cases like Spacies, Olimar and Ice Climbers, this game is very balanced and is definitely a LOT better (Balance-Wise) than the other Smashes.

 

[Bleck]

"except for the unbalanced parts, this game is pretty balanced"

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

"except for the unbalanced parts, this game is pretty balanced"

"Except for the 10% of the game that it's still unbalanced and being worked on, the other 90% of this game is pretty balanced."

Fixed.

 

[Foo]

"except for the unbalanced parts, this game is pretty balanced"

lol, this is you talking to volt

Yeah, fox is a thing, that by itself doesn't make the game terribly balanced. If you look at the game in general, and not just at spacies, the balance is done pretty well. But even when it's bad, it's not that bad. Certainly better than any other smash and then some. 3.5 wasn't even really a balance patch anyhow. It was a patch made to fit things to a new design philosophy. I bet 4.0 will be a true balance patch.

 

[Bleck]

"Except for the 10% of the game that it's still unbalanced and being worked on, the other 90% of this game is pretty balanced."

If you look at the game in general, and not just at spacies, the balance is done pretty well.

for what reason would someone intentionally ignore the problematic parts of the game, other than to argue (poorly) that those problematic parts aren't problematic

the unbalanced characters make the game unbalanced - you can choose to pretend that Fox doesn't exist if you want, and I'll choose instead to continue living in reality

 

[Fight for Piece]

http://projectmgame.com/en/characters/fox

"His major weakness is still his weight and falling speed, which gets him combo'd easily when he gets hit, as well as his recovery being one of the easier ones to edgeguard. Overall, Fox is Fox. While he has all the tools that made him top tier before, he has to worry about the characters that got buffs. Though he is almost exactly like he was in Melee, Fox players will need to adapt to the new characters as well as changes other characters have received."

You did read it all didn't you? Just because fox was kept very similar to the one in Melee doesn't mean he is broken. Even in this thread many people aren't mentioning fox in the top 3.

"except for the unbalanced parts, this game is pretty balanced"

Did you also not read all of what I said? No game is 100% balanced, unless of course there is only 1 character. Even chess is not a balanced game. The importance is getting as close to balanced as possible. With 40+ characters it's impossible to get everyone into the same tier or into 2 tiers. It's like you think really good balancing can be done in a few months. Even with 8 characters thats fricking hard.

 

[Bleck]

"His major weakness is still his weight and falling spe

so I guess I haven't had this discussion with you before so I'm gonna save us some time and point out that this is literally everyone's weakness in PM

having a fast falling speed and being easily combo'd is not a weakness in a game where everyone has a fast falling speed and is easily combo'd, especially when half the cast has recoveries that are less good than Fox'

No game is 100% balanced

you can say this as many times as you want, it's still not gonna matter

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

for what reason would someone intentionally ignore the problematic parts of the game, other than to argue (poorly) that those problematic parts aren't problematic

the unbalanced characters make the game unbalanced - you can choose to pretend that Fox doesn't exist if you want, and I'll choose instead to continue living in reality

I didn't said that. I said that a good part of this game is balanced, but this is not the final product.
We can't really complain that something is unbalanced mid-development as if this was the final version.
And besides, no game is perfectly balanced.
We have to notice how close the tiers are, most characters have a fighting chance even though they can fall in bad matchups, but no matchup in this game is unwinnable like Ganon vs. MK in Brawl, and that's a lot better than what most games can boast.

 

[Fight for Piece]

so I guess I haven't had this discussion with you before so I'm gonna save us some time and point out that this is literally everyone's weakness in PM

having a fast falling speed and being easily combo'd is not a weakness in a game where everyone has a fast falling speed and is easily combo'd, especially when half the cast has recoveries that are less good than Fox'r

Lol.... Fox's recovery is op? R u serious? It's very punishable. Sure it's long range. Who cares how long the range is if it's pretty easy to edge guard.

Compare Roy's up-b to fox's. Roy's is 10x harder to edgeguard.

EDIT: And it doesnt matter if roy's up-b is short. It matters if you can actually LIVE when you use your recovery. Using UP-B and dying is the same as not having a recovery at that moment.

you can say this as many times as you want, it's still not gonna matter

Me: Every game has balance issues.
You: PM has balance issues.
You: I totally won that argument.

Really looks like what you're saying doesn't seem too insightful either.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

So how would you guys justify the Space Animals compared to the rest of the cast? What makes their design fundamentally correct?
These questions probably don't deserve to be in this thread...

 

[Mean Green]

So how would you guys justify the Space Animals compared to the rest of the cast? What makes their design fundamentally correct?
These questions probably don't deserve to be in this thread...

PM started with them, so their privilege is automatically justified, Kappa

Edit: how would they (fox/falco) be nerfed enough to level the playing field, without changing them too much from how they were in Melee?

 

[Bleck]

Lol.... Fox's recovery is op? R u serious? It's very punishable. Sure it's long range. Who cares how long the range is if it's pretty easy to edge guard.

Fox' recovery isn't overpowered (note how I didn't say that), but being omnidirectional, having a hitbox and being fairly long distance makes it a fair share better than the large majority of the cast's recoveries (and note how circa 3.02 everybody complained about any recovery that was noticeably better than Fox')

the point wasn't that Fox' recovery is too good - it's that he has a fairly good recovery to complement his being easily combo'd in a game where the large majority of the cast is easily combo'd and do not have good recoveries

Compare Roy's up-b to fox's. Roy's is 10x harder to edgeguard.

why would I compare these things when the efficacy of the recoveries was never what I was talking about in the first place

I didn't said that. I said that a good part of this game is balanced, but this is not the final product. We can't really complain that something is unbalanced mid-development as if this was the final version.

no see complaining about balance in a game where balance patches were never going to happen is a waste of time (i.e if you think Fox is too good in Melee, play a different game)

while the game is being developed is the most critical time to be complaining about balance issues, as that's when it can be reasonably expected that said issues are actually going to be taken into account during, you know, development

And besides, no game is perfectly balanced.

this doesn't matter

no matchup in this game is unwinnable like Ganon vs. MK

don't play as Bowser much, do you

 

[Foo]

for what reason would someone intentionally ignore the problematic parts of the game, other than to argue (poorly) that those problematic parts aren't problematic

the unbalanced characters make the game unbalanced - you can choose to pretend that Fox doesn't exist if you want, and I'll choose instead to continue living in reality

If you consider balance a checkbox that is either checked "Yes" or "No" and has no spectrum, then sure. Yes, spacies are busted. You won't find many who believe this more than I do. Yes, spacies are OP and should be nerfed. That doesn't make the balance terrible on a global standpoint, it makes it noticeably imperfect, for sure. Saying the game is generally well balanced doesn't mean spacies are well balanced. That means "All things considered, this game has better balance when compared to similar games."

 

[Bleck]

yeah like I get that and it still doesn't matter

why point out that "the game is "relatively" balanced" other than to attempt to circumvent any discussion about the actual balance issues in the game

pointing out this fact serves no purpose other than to obfuscate the importance of the discussion that it's trying to preempt - i.e pointing out that the game is relatively balanced doesn't matter unless you're trying to say that the game doesn't need any more balancing

 

[Foo]

yeah like I get that and it still doesn't matter

why point out that "the game is "relatively" balanced" other than to attempt to circumvent any discussion about the actual balance issues in the game

pointing out this fact serves no purpose other than to obfuscate the importance of the discussion that it's trying to preempt - i.e pointing out that the game is relatively balanced doesn't matter unless you're trying to say that the game doesn't need any more balancing

gee, if only there was some way you could have prevented that type of discussion from happening. You're right, you never said any blanket statement about PM balance being bad that would cause people to defend it, that was totally on us. Wait, hold on...

I don't want to say that the PMDT are doing a bad job at balancing/making the game, no.

I do, though

If you wanna talk about if spacies are balanced or not, you should probably bring that up instead of making a **** post with a vague blanket statement insulting the devs. Food for thought, eh?


On topic: Spacies still busted? Yeah? Alright, good talk

PM started with them, so their privilege is automatically justified, Kappa

Edit: how would they (fox/falco) be nerfed enough to level the playing field, without changing them too much from how they were in Melee?

I think they need more weaknesses to justify their strengths, since we all know shine isn't going anywhere. Maybe tone down some damage values, slow down tech rolls, stuff like that?

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

PM started with them, so their privilege is automatically justified, Kappa

Edit: how would they (fox/falco) be nerfed enough to level the playing field, without changing them too much from how they were in Melee?

Because that's not their goal to be 1:1 Melee clones.
http://projectmgame.com/en/about
As long as they meet those requirements, mission complete. If there's still fundamental issues, then refocusing is in order.

 

[GabPR]

yeah like I get that and it still doesn't matter

why point out that "the game is "relatively" balanced" other than to attempt to circumvent any discussion about the actual balance issues in the game

pointing out this fact serves no purpose other than to obfuscate the importance of the discussion that it's trying to preempt - i.e pointing out that the game is relatively balanced doesn't matter unless you're trying to say that the game doesn't need any more balancing

I think we should express PM's strenghts as well. Sure we cannot focus on them alone, but ignoring to also talk about its good points wont let them know if their going in the right direction.

Imo 3.5 is prety good, and their going in the right direction in preparations for future patches.

 

[Bleck]

gee, if only there w

yawn

I think they need more weaknesses to justify their strengths, since we all know shine isn't going anywhere. Maybe tone down some damage values, slow down tech rolls, stuff like that?

why isn't the shine going anywhere

 

[Fight for Piece]

So how would you guys justify the Space Animals compared to the rest of the cast? What makes their design fundamentally correct?
These questions probably don't deserve to be in this thread...

I wasn't justifying them. Spacies have their weaknesses. They are strong, but it's not like PMDT will never fix this. Bleck seems to believe this.

Fox' recovery isn't overpowered (note how I didn't say that), but being omnidirectional, having a hitbox and being fairly long distance makes it a fair share better than the large majority of the cast's recoveries (and note how circa 3.02 everybody complained about any recovery that was noticeably better than Fox')

the point wasn't that Fox' recovery is too good - it's that he has a fairly good recovery to complement his being easily combo'd in a game where the large majority of the cast is easily combo'd and do not have good recoveries

And my point is that balances are happening, at the same time this game will never be 100% balanced and PMDT deserve more than you complaining about their free fan service. If you think this game will never be balanced then stop complaining about it on forums and find a new game? I truly wonder what fox player is making you so disappointed with how the PMDT balances the game. because if this was 3.02 you'd probably be saying the same things about Mewtwo.

EDIT:
"why would I compare these things when the efficacy of the recoveries was never what I was talking about in the first place"
If you die trying to get back to the ledge because your recovery has long start up time, (i.e. fox), travels in a straight direction (i.e. fox) and you got punished then its the same has having a short length recovery that wouldn't allow you to reach the stage anyway. In contrast, if you are blasted off a short distance away from the stage i'd rather be roy/ike/etc. than fox/falco because of how much safer other character's recoveries are. Thereore, I don't think Fox's recovery is better than half the roster which is what you previously said.

 

[Paradoxium]

why isn't the shine going anywhere

Because shine isn't the problem with Fox.

 

[Bleck]

I wasn't justifying them. Spacies have their weaknesses. They are strong, but it's not like PMDT will never fix this. Bleck seems to believe this.

I do believe this, yes - if anything, 3.5 is the biggest example in the history of PM of Fox (and Falco, to a lesser extent) being allowed to have tools that the PMDT (and the community at large) believe are otherwise unacceptable

I currently believe that the PMDT and the community believe things about the game at large that contribute negatively to the game's overall health and will ultimately undermine the long-term viability of PM as a competitive game

I truly wonder what fox player is making you so disappointed with how the PMDT balances the game.

there's this guy that goes by the name Mango

because if this was 3.02 you'd probably be saying the same things about Mewtwo.

actually back around 3.02 I was still mostly complaining about Fox, and any poster who's been around longer than last week can tell you that

Because shine isn't the problem with Fox.

why do you think that

 

[Rizner]

All of this talk about balance required for a final game and the only concept. You can have a balanced game, without having good design or a fun experience. I think that's also something worth talking about with some of the cast, but I suppose this isn't the thread for that.

Fox being pointed out as unbalanced is something we don't want to just say "yeah, they haven't gotten there yet"because that's what we've said since 2.6 at least, and none of their fundamental problems have been addressed in their two years of balance patches. We point this out as a problem with the game, because it's a part that has been a problem but not addressed and looking from the outside seems as it might not be addressed with this latest patch.

 

[Paradoxium]

What makes fox op is his kit combined with his speed. If you nerfed his speed he wouldn't be such a problem character.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

All of this talk about balance required for a final game and the only concept. You can have a balanced game, without having good design or a fun experience.

Gross.

I think that's also something worth talking about with some of the cast, but I suppose this isn't the thread for that.

Fox being pointed out as unbalanced is something we don't want to just say "yeah, they haven't gotten there yet"because that's what we've said since 2.6 at least, and none of their fundamental problems have been addressed in their two years of balance patches. We point this out as a problem with the game, because it's a part that has been a problem but not addressed and looking from the outside seems as it might not be addressed with this latest patch.

I'm tempted to make such a thread, but I'm not sure if there are enough mature people to have that discussion, so I'll pass for now.

 

[Bleck]

You use it for shield pressure, gimps, tech chases, combos, ect. It just compliments the things people like about smash.

there's no other move in the game that's so versatile, and it's faster than everything else in the game while having virtually no commitment (doesn't put you into special fall, can be jump canceled, a perfectly jump cancel-to-wavedash'd shine puts you back in neutral position faster than most attacks in the game)

like I don't understand how pointing out how the shine literally does everything except help with his recovery is your argument for how it's not the problem with his moveset

The problem with Fox lies in his runaway game. He can DD camp you and punish you very hard if you whiff, but if you dont throw anything out he can laser camp and force you to. And once your at high enoughe damage

it sort of feels like you accidentally forgot to finish this post so I'm gonna let you maybe fix it before I respond

 

[Rizner]

Shine is a problem. Shine is not the only problem.