Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

I'm referring to chevy who seemed upset that he didn't have tether cancel

once again, it isn't a small mixup. It's literally nothing. Theres no hitbox.

Actually, it'd probably be WORSE if you gave them tether cancel, because if they re up b'd... they don't have another up b to use if they get hit again (And they WILL get hit again)

 

[TheGravyTrain]

For starters, I would say giving special tethers a love tap hitbox (3.02 Olimar, but probs not one that stage spikes imo). That would at least make them time their ledge grab. Other than that, the issue is if tethers are too good, the can't be stopped, but if they aren't good enough they have no other option but to be destroyed (no high recovery) because the boost sucks.

 

[~Dad~]

Reacting to tether cancels in 3.0 was actually free. The differences in animation between a dropped tether and a forced real in were so painfully obvious that if you fell for the fakeout, you probably sucked and/or had really bad eyes. Tether cancels were fun and I miss them, but losing them actually does not hurt up b tether characters at all.

 

[_A1]

@ Foo Luigi is definitely frustrating. Against Luigi you can't combo well or be too aggressive. You gotta bait all his super quick aerials. When you get like 2-3 hits or whatever the combo is pretty much over, so don't follow up; wait for the nair or keep stage position. Edgeguarding him is just a long session of rinse and repeat.

 

[Chevy]

I'm referring to chevy who seemed upset that he didn't have tether cancel

once again, it isn't a small mixup. It's literally nothing. Theres no hitbox.

Actually, it'd probably be WORSE if you gave them tether cancel, because if they re up b'd... they don't have another up b to use if they get hit again (And they WILL get hit again)

I'm a bit sad, but I understand them being gone. And Samus/Tink/Link's recoveries were definitely too good with them. I just wish we could find a better middle ground where there's actually interaction when edge-guarding and we don't remove fun ATs. Reel in time I think should be increased, and 1 tether is definitely a good change. But they'd still be a little too good even with just those. I don't know.

 

[Beorn]

You could do something very similar to tether cancels in melee. Along with having a hitbox on the tether itself, and you could sweetspot the ledge. It took more skill to do it, but sweetspotting was a thing. You could also latch anywhere on a wall and jump out of the latch into an up-B. You had many more options. Can someone with more melee experience tell me why It's broken to have any of this in PM, but it wasn't in melee?

 

[CORY]

primarily because of autosweetspotting, i'd assume. if you missed the spacing in melee, you didn't sweetspot and so you could get hit out of it (or at least, you could get hit much easier). this sorta precludes the hitboxes for ztethers, but not necessarily special tethers.

i'm assuming the autosweetspot is why you can't ztether-cancel-upb, since you just autosnap the ledge you can do it with much less risk to yourself than in melee, so they don't feel that they need that extra recovery option attached to the character.

/all imo

 

[steelguttey]

Are you talking about luigi's recovery? Also, what does that edit even mean? "also its linear. you can mix it up alot, but its always going to end the same" You say it's linear, then immediately say he can mix it up a lot... Always going to end up in the same place? Yeah, if only he were more like other characters that could recover by going to a different stage? Having to try and go for stage makes him so unlike every other smash character

Anyway, going by that logic, let's list some of the 3.0 characters with the worst recoveries.

1. Mewtwo. I mean, what were they thinking? His recovery didn't have hitboxes OR armor? Free stock every time he went off stage smh 0/10
2. ZSS. One tiny hitbox above her head while up-b boosting and no armor? She may as well not have been even to tether ledge 1/10. Also, it was very linear. Sure, she had many different recovery options and mixups but I have no idea what the word linear means.
3. Ivysaur. Another character with no armor and her only hitbox is below her?! uh, pmdt, what's that going to help with?!? 1.5/10

(I could keep going but you get the point... alright one more)

Best: Captain Falcon Now here's a character with amazing recovery. It doesn't go very far, but that doesn't matter. What does matter is that the up-b hitbox is big AND it gets grab armor! HOLY ****! 11/10

(I couldn't find any characters that had armor on recovery except for falcon, ganon, and yoshi lmao)

@ Beorn I really don't think ivy recovery was nerfed to a reasonable degree at all... It basically comes down to "if you can recovery without using tether, that's a stock!" Up-b tethers were overnerfed pretty hard. Z-tethers were the problem in 3.02, not up-b ones.

ight

its linear because it is always going to include the same things. double jump, down b, up b and the occasional side b. they all do the same hting with different hitboxes.

the sarcasm isnt needed. i know youre on a message board and want to look cool but its not helpin you out fam. i said somethin about your character, dont have to make an ass outta yaself

mewtwo obviously doesnt have a linear recovery, it can go in every ****ing direction.

zss has a **** recovery still lol she can get 3 jumps and an up b tether lmao

same with ivysaur

luigi has a bad recovery because its going to go at a predictable angle every time

 

[Foo]

ight

its linear because it is always going to include the same things. double jump, down b, up b and the occasional side b. they all do the same hting with different hitboxes.

You could make this statement about literally every single recovery in the game, or at leastst some version of it. However, this isn't completely true either, as there are a few more options. For instance, luigi is so floaty he can usually just slowly float back to stage unless he got hit a little bit low. If he got hit too far for that, he can rocket once while still way out of range of edgeguard. The advantage of floating back is that he will cover himself with fireballs. He can even use down-b from way off stage to put him in this situation basically every time, unless he had cc di.

the sarcasm isnt needed. i know youre on a message board and want to look cool but its not helpin you out fam. i said somethin about your character, dont have to make an *** outta yaself

When you make a statement like the one you did, you deserve to be made fun of. Saying you can swat away any character that doesn't have big hitboxes or armor on their recovery is just... ********. I don't have anything to prove to anyone on here, being sarcastic was just the only way to a statement THAT false. (I mean, come on, you are better than that.) Also, saying distance of a recovery doesn't matter? Seriously?

luigi has a bad recovery because its going to go at a predictable angle every time

Yes, all of luigi's recovery MOVES angles cannot be changed by the players, but there's tons more that can't, and a lot of them have good recoveries. Besides, you don't really even have to use any of them where you are in range to be edgeguarded.

 

[Myst007_teh_newb]

The removal of tether cancels has essentially no consequences outside of removing silliness and mixup options to the z-tether characters (i.e. the ones who need additional mixup options the least). And the edge-guarding game for tether characters is not braindead in 3.5 or anything. ZSS has crazy mixup potential with her down-b and wall jump. Ivy can razor leaf the edge and threaten space with fair. Olimar gets bodied on ledge unless he has a purple pikmin at the front of his line, but, I mean, who cares about Olimar, right? Tether reel-in is in a good spot right now, I think.

I main ZSS and the exchanges I have off of forced reel-in on walled stages are downright silly, sometimes.
>>Forced reel-in
>>Fade away off stage
>>Fast Fall
>>Down-B
>>Wall jump
>>Uair them off ledge
>>Tether again
And that's just the bread and butter.

 

[steelguttey]

You could make this statement about literally every single recovery in the game, or at leastst some version of it. However, this isn't completely true either, as there are a few more options. For instance, luigi is so floaty he can usually just slowly float back to stage unless he got hit a little bit low. If he got hit too far for that, he can rocket once while still way out of range of edgeguard. The advantage of floating back is that he will cover himself with fireballs. He can even use down-b from way off stage to put him in this situation basically every time, unless he had cc di.

you arent understanding what im saying. its linear because hes always going to have to misfire towards the ledge, get hit with that ****ty lag, and then try to up b or down b up again. its just a game of keep hitting him off with a back air or something until he dies lol.

When you make a statement like the one you did, you deserve to be made fun of. Saying you can swat away any character that doesn't have big hitboxes or armor on their recovery is just... ********. I don't have anything to prove to anyone on here, being sarcastic was just the only way to a statement THAT false. (I mean, come on, you are better than that.) Also, saying distance of a recovery doesn't matter? Seriously?

please shutup before you make even more of an idiot of yourself. "you stated an opinion that i disagree with, which means that i get to be a sarcastic ****lord" lmao thats some sick logic. and, yes you can. ****ing hog the edge and wait. every recovery had counters, most of them are pretty obvious. if they dont have big hitboxes, hit them with a disjoint, if they have alot of priority then ****ing wait and smack them. and distance of recovery matters, but does it make it good? ****ing olimar can go DEEP (bottom of dreamland 64 iirc) but he still has the worst recovery in the game. a good recovery is defined by how hard it is to edgeguard him, and its ****ing easy to edgeguard luigi. until i see a good luigi ****ing do a good recovery against a good player, then ill consider. but until then, luigi players step it up. cause i havent seen ****.

Yes, all of luigi's recovery MOVES angles cannot be changed by the players, but there's tons more that can't, and a lot of them have good recoveries. Besides, you don't really even have to use any of them where you are in range to be edgeguarded.

youre generalizing recoveries so ****ing hard holy ****. "yes, alot other people have similar qualities and they dont have bad recoveries!!" isnt logical. ****ing pikachu doesnt have big hitboxes but its fast, which is good (something i forgot to mention, fast recoveries are a + too). does that make it the same as luigi's recovery? no, because luigi's recovery has a ****ton of endlag and is slow for important parts on it (startup and endlag) but because ist ****ing sonic fast at parts where hes going somewhere its ****ing amazing apparently.

 

[Binary Clone]

that ****ty lag sarcastic ****lord" i havent seen ****. ****ing hard holy **** ****ing

It's gets hard to understand when so much of your post is just stars.

Also, I think you have a bit of a misunderstanding of what the word "linear" means. There seems to be a discrepancy in the definitions you two are using.

 

[steelguttey]

yea sorry im gonna go wash out mouth with soap brb

linear in terms of recoveries means that its always going to do the same thing and go at the same angle depending on which way theyre hit.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Lunchables I still think you're overrating ROB. Not getting (major) nerfs doesn't automatically mean he's now above characters who did get (major) nerfs, and most of his good neutral tools rely on ignorance or bad MU development. Like there's a diddy here who will regularly catch my gyro if I try to throw it in neutral, or grab it before I ever do in the first place because gyro placement is slow and requires a lot of time to get it in hand. ROB really shouldn't have an easy time even getting it in hand punishment free in neutral. Laser is slow enough to be PS reflected or just shielded on reaction, and boosting for a nair has a fair amount of commitment and is telegraphed by the time it takes him to get to the right height, and no other aerial is safe from that height out of a boost except dair to stall, or additional boosts if they respond with good spacing. Low to the ground boost fair is good but loses to jumping (and CC at low percents), much like a lot of ROB loses to vertically mobile characters, and boost upair is his solution to that but loses to pretty much everything else and can't even hit short characters or most character's crouching. But he gets from those kinds of approach the opportunity (usually) to force his opponent to engage his CCing ability (unless they can grab, which is usually slower than other responses like a good CCdsmash or a nair). His CC is way overrated because just holding up will get you out of his best CC option (dsmash) and holding away covers all other options really well while also giving a decent response to dsmash that prevents a follow-up past low percents (char dependent obv), and that's the response I DO see pretty often, effectively meaning ROB only gets a good punish off a CC if he has time to land a grab which is much slower and less in reach/coverage than other good CC options. His fair chains should never carry you across the stage if you just DI down+away, same for upairs, which at that point have to lead into a fair which you can then repeat to escape; mostly fair chains should only be threatening near an edge where DI down+away puts you at a bad angle, but anywhere else good DI on the fair should get you grounded in time to shield an incoming boost fair and force ROB to play a guessing game straight out of his punish game (or force him to play safe and keep stage position which is still worse than guaranteed punishment.. Like it's a really strange claim to make that ROB is so insane when there's no ROB's beating anybody using all those tactics, because nobody consistently DOES use them all. And it's not like they are ridiculous things to ask of a player, because I look at melee matchups and these are standard responses to matchup specific situations in Melee. DI peach's dsmash up, marth's fair chains down+away, pressure peach to avoid her getting her turnips.
I mean, dthrow is fantastic, but why should such a slow character on the ground land so many grabs? They really have to be set-up or used to punish really bad approaches.
All that said, I wish I could redesign ROB slightly. He's too reliant on getting grabs, his throws should be less god tier in exchange for something else.

 

[Deleted member]

Changes to rob:
Remove a boost
some end lag on d throw
gyro doesn't go across the entire ****ing stage

.done

Seriously, that'd fix a lot of his problems. Removing a boost would make his ******** air dash dancing mixups less stupid, his ability to murder everyone offstage less stupid, recovery would fit a 3.5 style.
D throw mostly needs end lag because he still gets the same followups with 2 boosts, and robs d throw is broken. Also, why does gyro go across the entire stage + a good glide toss while all of the other projectiles you hold (ex. bombs) were nerfed in distance?

 

[Chevy]

You could do something very similar to tether cancels in melee. Along with having a hitbox on the tether itself, and you could sweetspot the ledge. It took more skill to do it, but sweetspotting was a thing. You could also latch anywhere on a wall and jump out of the latch into an up-B. You had many more options. Can someone with more melee experience tell me why It's broken to have any of this in PM, but it wasn't in melee?

Melee tethers are damn near perfect. The insane amount of mix-up potential made them a deep and satisfying mechanic, but not a particularly powerful one. Even though you have a bunch of options, none of them are particularly great. Problem is, there is no framework for Melee tethers to exist in Brawls engine, and would have to be coded from scratch. This is apparently very difficult to do. So instead PMDT has had to compromise and try to fix Brawl's crappy tether mechanic.

 

[Deleted member]

i like rob where hes at, as well as the other blatantly good characters like wolf sheik roy etc, i just wish some of the cast around them were buffed up a bit.

that said i think a lot of people are really underrating rob right now, and not just because oracle is amazing

 

[Deleted member]

i like rob where hes at, as well as the other blatantly good characters like wolf sheik roy etc, i just wish some of the cast around them were buffed up a bit.

3.02 was kind of designed under the mindset of "If we can't nerf spacies, lets buff the rest of the characters up to their level" and it didn't work

I'd rather bring characters down to a moderate level than slowly bring them up. Also yeah rob is hella underrated, as are a **** ton of 3.5 characters right now.

 

[Deleted member]

3.02 was kind of designed under the mindset of "If we can't nerf spacies, lets buff the rest of the characters up to their level" and it didn't work

I'd rather bring characters down to a moderate level than slowly bring them up. Also yeah rob is hella underrated, as are a **** ton of 3.5 characters right now.

all my friends do is complain that sheik is too good and i dont even know what to say to them.

 

[Beorn]

all my friends do is complain that sheik is too good and i dont even know what to say to them.

You're right? All of the characters that are in lunchables "top tier" are too good. Blatantly so. Doesn't mean they are gonna get nerfs.

 

[Frost | Odds]

i like rob where hes at, as well as the other blatantly good characters like wolf sheik roy etc, i just wish some of the cast around them were buffed up a bit.

This is exactly the mindset that led to the game design disaster of 3.02.

I'm still a fan of the idea of all these clearly unbalanced characters getting hit hard, right in the tech rolls.

 

[shairn]

"Game design disaster of 3.02" sounds like some ancient catastrophe
Like the hail storm of '67. There's probably a TVtropes page for this.

I think we're at a comfy position with regard to top tier characters, we should be focusing more on having obviously bad characters (relatively speaking) on the same level as current high-mid tiers.

 

[Sethlon]

3.02 was kind of designed under the mindset of "If we can't nerf spacies, lets buff the rest of the characters up to their level" and it didn't work

I'd rather bring characters down to a moderate level than slowly bring them up. Also yeah rob is hella underrated, as are a **** ton of 3.5 characters right now.

"Buff characters up to spacie level" is really quite different from "Buff characters up to the Sheik/Falcon/Roy/ROB/Marth level", though, and thats something I think could be reasonably achieved with minor changes.

 

[Bleck]

and what about the characters who are better than those characters

 

[Foo]

I'd much rather see spacies nerfed down first lol. We don't have to kill shine and make them into whole new characters, we could just nerf tech rolls, put more lag on recovery, and other things to make counterplaying against them easier, but doesn't make them no longer spacies. As much as I would love for spacies not to exist, I understand that removing/nerfing what makes them spacies would not be a good idea, so just make them weak in other areas to justify it.

I also think current non-spacie top tier may still just a tad too strong. I think the ideal balance mark right now is around this patch's high tier.

 

[DrinkingFood]

ROB's gyro goes across the stage because he throws it so ****ing high, it goes over short characters' heads. I'm sure you can throw it over tink's head, at the right distance. I could get behind gyro throw changes if he didn't release it from so high up.

Also dthrow is ROB's only real good conversion tool. He doesn't have any good 50/50s that lead into punishment on bad DI and work on any level of play, so dthrow not being guaranteed and getting NOTHING in return is an awful idea unless you want an awful character. It's not even like he kills that early out of dthrow anymore anyway give the upair nerf.

As for your boost idea, well, given full freedom I'd find a way to rework them because their design is so strange, but just removing a boost I don't really like because of how his recovery is designed. He doesn't get anything back on hit, and can't really sweetspot well from below, so his main option is either go high or go straight to the edge, and if he gets sent back off for failing to mix-up or comes in high unsafely it's curtains. Additionally his recovery doubles has part of his neutral and after the last boost he can't airdodge so getting hit out of his boosts leaves him way more vulnerable than someone like peach or Jiggs who still have recovery options without float/DJ. Also "gimping" ROB has to be the most unsatisfying anticlimactic kill possible. He just like, floats down to his death, in idle falling animation but nothing he can do to save himself lol

 

[steelguttey]

give rob snake grenade throw angles

just kidding dont do that

 

[Foo]

Yeah, I feel that if you took away a boost from rob, you'd have to make him, if he had 0 left, get one boost back after being hit or it would be a massive massive nerf. I don't feel that's quite needed

 

[DrinkingFood]

Actually please do give ROB grenade angles for gyro

 

[DrinkingFood]

Or an exploding gyro
Double post because mobile 0 ****s given

 

[Ripple]

Link should get the ka-BOOM-erang

in fact, Link's boomerangs should be the 5 technorangs from Ty the tasmanian tiger

 

[steelguttey]

dedede should throw suicide gordos

 

[Warzenschwein]

ganondorf should get a hover, that'd be crazy

 

[Psyant]

ganondorf should get a hover, that'd be crazy

Let's not get too silly now. Next you'll be saying he should have a reflector.

 

[CORY]

Let's not get too silly now. Next you'll be saying he should have a reflector.

bro... bro, stay with me.. what if... what if both were somehow... COMBINED?!

 

[Sethlon]

and what about the characters who are better than those characters

Theoretically, I think it would be best to also bring those characters down a bit...but, well, thats easier said than done in some obvious cases.

 

[Ripple]

hey, @ Sethlon , with end of January coming about, you told other PMDT about the stuff I asked for right? star spit, heavy landing lag, doubles exclusive armor. just reminding you

 

[Deleted member]

ganondorf should get a hover, that'd be crazy

Yknow whats funny? Multiple people who weren't pmdt that knew about it would talk about it IRL/in smash chats

"Ganons gonna get a hover Kappa" And it sounded so crazy no one believed it was real. I couldn't help but laugh whenever I saw people never notice

 

[Warzenschwein]

Yknow whats funny? Multiple people who weren't pmdt that knew about it would talk about it IRL/in smash chats

"Ganons gonna get a hover Kappa" And it sounded so crazy no one believed it was real. I couldn't help but laugh whenever I saw people never notice

I heard about it and thought "cool, that makes sense."

I am the 1%. \ (•◡•) /

 

[JOE!]

Theoretically, I think it would be best to also bring those characters down a bit...but, well, thats easier said than done in some obvious cases.

I think it's a matter of looking at what aspects of them are overly strong, and then which aspects nobody would mind changing (like tech rolls). When those are identified you can bring up subtle changes that can add up to big results.