Tier List Speculation

[Frost | Odds]

It was just so knee-jerk for you and Plate to see "here's how we can nerf this character" and think "oh oh oh lets nerf fox because fox"

Everyone knows Fox is the best, but reaching in to a pool of various nerfs you can give a character and pulling out a random one like "tech roll" isn't how to fix PM at all.
Honestly it would be a good change in terms of balance, but what frustrated me so much is that it was just kinda out of context. Not every balance discussion should be based around how to bring Fox down and every other character up. That's why I said narrow-minded.

Allow me to state, up-front, my agenda.

1. I would like PM to be as balanced as possible.
2. I think Fox is the biggest single obstacle in the way of (1)
3. I would like Bowser to be better in relation to the cast - both selfishly (because I play Bowser), and as a result of (1), which is to say that Bowser still sucks pretty hard. Fox isn't (relatively speaking) a huge problem for Bowser, but I do find it annoying that Fox is allowed to be as good as he is, while Bowser is as bad as he is.
4. Have some damn fun while posting on a forum about a video game.

I don't think any of this is a secret to anyone. If I have a suggestion that I think may prove useful in terms of balance, I'm liable to present it, and try to make sure people are aware of the idea - either

1. to reject it entirely and explain why (for example, that perhaps hitting Fox in the tech roll wouldn't actually help balance him any for some unknown reason),
2. to present constructive criticism, or
3. to help make the PMDT aware of the idea's potential.

Anyway, the statement that squirtle, more than anyone in the game (particularly Fox), deserves to have the worst tech roll, struck me as uniquely laughable, so I thought pointing it out (thus serving Agenda Points 1-4) would be beneficial. I also happen to think the change would be a step in the right direction, for the reasons previously stated. You haven't really addressed any of them, which makes me a sad panda.

All roads lead to Bowser's Castle, yo

 

[Beorn]

It was just so knee-jerk for you and Plate to see "here's how we can nerf this character" and think "oh oh oh lets nerf fox because fox"

Everyone knows Fox is the best, but reaching in to a pool of various nerfs you can give a character and pulling out a random one like "tech roll" isn't how to fix PM at all.
Honestly it would be a good change in terms of balance, but what frustrated me so much is that it was just kinda out of context. Not every balance discussion should be based around how to bring Fox down and every other character up. That's why I said narrow-minded.

What should we be talking about in balance discussions if not this. Honestly, I would like to know what you would rather us talk about.

I'm just going to chime in on this fox discussion and say that the things you mentioned that actually make fox problematic are also why people play him. If you took away endless sheild pressure or messed with the knockback and angle on shine people that played fox would be upset. These changes would be changing how you play the character. Killing characters at zero is fox, as bull **** as it is, we can't change this without ruining the character.

Make fox work harder while still doing the same things.

Fox does too much damage per hit and per combo, which is also why he kills so fast and is so safe on shield. Taking damage from a move gives it less shieldstun. Make him work harder for those kills and be more precise for that safe shield pressure, as well as giving fixing his recovery so he has to play by the rules of smash when getting back to the stage.

If you try and change what makes fox fox you are going to upset people. Which is I'm sure why he wasn't already nerfed hard.
I propose these changes to keep his play style while making him go from ganon damage to a more reasonable falco damage. None of this would change his play style or kill percents. It will just make him less overpowering. Aside from the up-b landing lag. This will force people to actually consider things when up-bing to the stage.

15% bair > 12% bair (compensated for knockback)

12%nair sweet spot > 10% nair sweetspot (compensated for knockback)

18% uair > 14% uair (compensated for knockback)

15% dsmash > pal 13% dsmash> ( no compensation)

12% utilt > 8% utilt (this is just a given)

16% up-b > 14% up-b / 30 frames of landing lag (same as wolf)

Slightly slower tech rolls.

Existing nerfs

Lazer damage
No invincibility on shine
18% usmash > pal 17% usmash (+ pal knockback)

You just can't change shine and expect there to not be blow back.

@ Frost | Odds Whens the next update to your how to play bowser series?

 

[Soft Serve]

Why are people complaining about Luigi's recovery? Nothing has changed about it aside from down b rising higher because of simultaneous button presses. You can still easily gimp him offstage with a well timed aerial, and he'll have a lot of trouble getting back. Wait for his down b, hit him, and watch him fall. Punish the side b which he has to commit too for half a second. It's not difficult; I mean i can understand misfire being somewhat of an issue, but even that can be predictable if Luigi is far off from the stage. Even if he does misfire, you can stop it where its at with any hitbox.
Him grabbing ledge with side b has been the case since 2.5 (probably even before), so i don't see the issue here since it never was an issue before.
Down b rise only goes vertically so just throw out an aerial and its ggs.

Honestly I don't see the problem here. His recovery is decent now because of everyones recovery being nerfed, but it's still easily taken care of. Don't be afraid to go offstage.

This is in reply to some of the comments I saw about it in the previous pages.

Not disagreeing with this, there are things to complain about luigi but his recovery isn't really the best thing to complain about, other than getting hit by misfires when you go out to try to intercept side-bs. You can definetly move horizontally with down-b though, its a good distance and you keep the same vertical height.

 

[PlateProp]

It was just so knee-jerk for you and Plate to see "here's how we can nerf this character" and think "oh oh oh lets nerf fox because fox"

Everyone knows Fox is the best, but reaching in to a pool of various nerfs you can give a character and pulling out a random one like "tech roll" isn't how to fix PM at all.
Honestly it would be a good change in terms of balance, but what frustrated me so much is that it was just kinda out of context. Not every balance discussion should be based around how to bring Fox down and every other character up. That's why I said narrow-minded.

I never said anything about nerfing fox, just that it didnt make sense that a character with all his strengths had a better tech roll than a character who is nowhere near as great has one that's complete **** because of how slow it is.

 

[Boardwalk]

Allow me to state, up-front, my agenda.

1. I would like PM to be as balanced as possible.
2. I think Fox is the biggest single obstacle in the way of (1)
3. I would like Bowser to be better in relation to the cast - both selfishly (because I play Bowser), and as a result of (1), which is to say that Bowser still sucks pretty hard. Fox isn't (relatively speaking) a huge problem for Bowser, but I do find it annoying that Fox is allowed to be as good as he is, while Bowser is as bad as he is.
4. Have some damn fun while posting on a forum about a video game.

I don't think any of this is a secret to anyone. If I have a suggestion that I think may prove useful in terms of balance, I'm liable to present it, and try to make sure people are aware of the idea - either

1. to reject it entirely and explain why (for example, that perhaps hitting Fox in the tech roll wouldn't actually help balance him any for some unknown reason),
2. to present constructive criticism, or
3. to help make the PMDT aware of the idea's potential.

Anyway, the statement that squirtle, more than anyone in the game (particularly Fox), deserves to have the worst tech roll, struck me as uniquely laughable, so I thought pointing it out (thus serving Agenda Points 1-4) would be beneficial. I also happen to think the change would be a step in the right direction, for the reasons previously stated. You haven't really addressed any of them, which makes me a sad panda.

All roads lead to Bowser's Castle, yo

who should the best player in pm be?
the mentality of buff my favorite character and nerf his is ridiculous.
this game has way too many variables involved to create 50-50 matchups for all the matchups
so at the end of the day their will always be some sort of tier list.
who should the best character be??? bowser? why
i cant think of any arguements why he should be the best instead of fox
why should fox be the best?
im not saying he should be the best but you cant deny that fox might be the most technically demanding player on the roster.
should the best character be the hardest to play?
i think that a few adjustments could be made to him but he is the best because he is a technical monster.

 

[robosteven]

There is nothing unreasonable about suggesting that a character that has dominated the metagame for almost fifteen years and pretty much continues to dominate the metagame should be toned down a little bit.

 

[robosteven]

i think that a few adjustments could be made to him but he is the best because he is a technical monster.

If technical requirement was a prerequisite to being top tier, Ness and Yoshi would be the best characters in Melee.

oh wait there's way more to being high-tier than technical requirement

see: Brawl Olimar

 

[Boardwalk]

There is nothing unreasonable about suggesting that a character that has dominated the metagame for almost fifteen years and pretty much continues to dominate the metagame should be toned down a little bit.

i know it sounds like i am sitting in here defending fox when we all know he doesnt need any help defending himself

i cant argue that he dominates the melee metagame and that will probably never change
the pm metagame doesnt have time to grow because of all the patches
i know that this is because we are still in demo version
if this game continues to be played competitively the meta game will grow and who knows what could happen


with the new characters and subtle changes there is no reason that somebody can find a strategy to defeat fox
look at m2k marth vs spacies on fd. thats pretty much 80-20

 

[Deleted member]

i know that this is because we are still in demo version


with the new characters and subtle changes there is no reason that somebody can find a strategy to defeat fox
look at m2k marth vs spacies on fd. thats pretty much 80-20

1. They dropped the "Demo" part of Project M from the game after when 3.0 released over a year ago. It's a full game now.

2. You poor, poor soul...

 

[Player -0]

M2K is a top player, infamous for his punish game on ONE STAGE. Which is EASILY banned in P:M.

Please get your information right, P:M dropped its-

*Sees "New Post" and Lunchable's comment*

I'm done.

 

[Paradoxium]

M2K is a top player, infamous for his punish game on ONE STAGE. Which is EASILY banned in P:M.

Please get your information right, P:M dropped its-

*Sees "New Post" and Lunchable's comment*

I'm done.

M2k's punish game with shiek is almost as good as his Marth's on Fd

 

[Boardwalk]

If technical requirement was a prerequisite to being top tier, Ness and Yoshi would be the best characters in Melee.

oh wait there's way more to being high-tier than technical requirement

see: Brawl Olimar

i didnt mean to say that fox was the only hard character to play.
if the best character in the game was the easiest to play that would make for a brain dead game

i personally would like to see a few changes to fox
but even now he is still able to get bodied hard by someone if they dont know what they are doing

 

[Binary Clone]

The argument that more technical should equate to better thus justifying Fox's whatever is dumb, dated, and debunked. Can we retire that **** already?

Plus, the idea behind a lot of your posts is flawed. There shouldn't be a one single "best" character, that's the idea of balance. One can argue that it's an inevitability, but in the practical sense we shouldn't pretend that we should or have to designate a "best" character at all.

 

[Boardwalk]

The argument that more technical should equate to better thus justifying Fox's whatever is dumb, dated, and debunked. Can we retire that **** already?

Plus, the idea behind a lot of your posts is flawed. There shouldn't be a one single "best" character, that's the idea of balance. One can argue that it's an inevitability, but in the practical sense we shouldn't pretend that we should or have to designate a "best" character at all.

i dont think that there has to be a best character. and 100 percent agree that it should be something discovered over time and not chosen at it's start to discourage exploring other characters and instead choosing "the best option to win character"

as far as technical difficulty goes. it is probably true that we will never reach the full potential of any character in a game like melee or pm because the game itself is too fast. this means that every character has room for improvement. i think more people should look at the individual skill of a player and not the character that they choose to play.

 

[Akhenderson]

Fox's only nerfs should be his upB getting more frames of landing lag (because lol 6 frames is fair…)
as well as putting some sort of limiter on his laser. I posted an idea way earlier that his laser should have some amount of ammunition that doesn't get recharged until reloading.
However, instead of like Snake's gun where he automatically goes into a reload stance after trying to fire the unloaded gun, fox's would instead shoot nothing so as to not disrupt the player who has the SHDL in their muscle memory. Instead, he has to manually reload every time he wants to use the gun again after running out. Fox kills vertically more anyways, so if he gets a kill via upsmash or hair, he has enough ample time to reload the blaster for the next stock.

Right now, Fox has literally everything a smash character wants. Great neutral, decent recovery, great gimping potential, good kill power, amazing pressure, and various other traits. He has no weaknesses other than being "easy to combo" but that weakness resides in very many other characters.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

@ B Boardwalk


I would not cal fox vs marth 20-80 on FD, seeing as other good players like PPMD (I know Falco...), Mango, Leffen, and other good spacies doing well vs M2K. Actually using M2K as a metric is terrible because of how much he fluctuates based on the day (no offense to him either, I love watching him). I wouldn't call numbers though, I just don't think that's in the ball park.

Also, spacies can always ban FD in PM. Fox is at the point where it is pretty safe to say there isn't going to be some random strat or kryptonite that appears, he is very understood. I highly doubt people will figure out how to beat him badly with new characters unless those tools are broken (see everything in 3.02...).

 

[Rizner]

Why can't we change the way fox plays, again? If we remove or heavily modify shine, some people will be mad and some will be happy. Things will need to be figured out and worked around. Other characters get hit with changes like this (when their mechanics aren't as good/polarizing), so fox shouldn't be immune.

 

[_Chrome]

Insult noted.

Rather than respond in kind, though, I'll note that:

1. Any substantial nerf to Fox's actually problematic aspects (endless shield pressure, neutral game that's almost by definition better than everyone else's due to lasers, ridiculous nair, easy kills at 0%, free kills from uthrow against floaties at around 60%, etcetera) would have pretty much every Melee main howling bloody murder
2. A nerf to Fox's tech roll would not change his gameplay at all, but would allow characters who currently have extreme difficulty punishing him (such as ZSS, Tink, and others) to actually have a hope in hell of challenging him.
3. It certainly wouldn't make Fox underpowered.

Sure, it's probably not a complete solution, but sneering at the mere mention of the idea like that is pretty childish and unproductive. I don't see a single downside, frankly.

Legendary comment, my friend.

 

[JOE!]

Why can't we change the way fox plays, again? If we remove or heavily modify shine, some people will be mad and some will be happy. Things will need to be figured out and worked around. Other characters get hit with changes like this (when their mechanics aren't as good/polarizing), so fox shouldn't be immune.

Because so many munchkins play fox that the internet would implode.

Anyway, what if Lasers decayed faster or had Brawl Range? The laser is really only s threatening in neutral because it has technically infinite range, meaning you cannot out space it like other projectiles, and hits so fast that it isn't really worth powershielding or whatever like Falco's (or just hopping over like other super long range stuff, whatever). Even with the nerfed damage, Fox can still sit across a stage and technically win neutral by just SHFFL'ing the Laser over and over to wrack up damage, and when you finally do approach (since you can't not approach him after a while) he gets to punish you based on your option.

If lasers decayed in damage or in range the more he pressed it, or simply had more limited range, I feel the neutral in that aspect would be a lot more manageable for more characters as he wont control as much space as easily.

 

[shairn]

Fox lasers already quickly decay to 1% damage.
What more could you want?

 

[ThegreatVaporeon1]

Not disagreeing with this, there are things to complain about luigi but his recovery isn't really the best thing to complain about, other than getting hit by misfires when you go out to try to intercept side-bs. You can definetly move horizontally with down-b though, its a good distance and you keep the same vertical height.

He doesn't move very far horizontally with his down b though; he'll generally be going up and slightly to the left and right, which you can still just intercept with a dair or w/e

 

[JOE!]

Fox lasers already quickly decay to 1% damage.
What more could you want?

It decays from 2->1%, right? And then based on distance becomes like, 0.5%?

In that case, why not just make it so they aren't screen-wide

 

[Strong Badam]

It is always at least 1%.

 

[shairn]

That would be pretty pathetic. SHDL is good but not exactly overwhelming, it's a bit of a commitment actually, so if you're getting beaten by KB-less 1% lasers you might be playing the neutral game wrong. Feign approaching, bait out a move to shield grab/whiff punish, the works.

 

[JOE!]

Oh, I thought it got nerfed to do below 1%? Anyway, my main point here is that many seem to say Fox still dictates neutral seeing as if you aren't near him he has both speed and a full screen means of racking damage that can't really be stopped, and is of little consequence to him thanks to SHFFL. Making it not full-screen would make more stages and more characters have more breathign room vs him in a sense. See where Im going with it?

 

[leekslap]

Fox definetly deserves a couple more frames of landing lag after uo b. I know I used to think he wasn't broken before because I am myself, but after going back to my old posts, I just wish I could delete them lol.

Since this is a tier list thread, can anyone tell me the discussion advancements in terms of generally agreed placements and stuff. I've just been playing Smash 64. That game is awesome; I would reccomend it to anyone.

 

[Boiko]

I honestly think the best way to balance Fox is to give him landing lag on his recovery. Considering the distance/versatility, six frames is insane. In addition to this, maybe reduce the damage and KB on a few of his aerials.

No bias, but Ness had 20 frames of end lag added to his recovery. His recovery goes a great distance, but it's easy to intercept and takes a lot of timing and practice to aim well. Now, if he hits the stage, he's got 20 frames of lag, which is plenty for most characters to punish. I thought it was stupid that he had no lag, that was like, insane, so I'm actually glad that lag was added. However, I don't think it makes any sense that Fox, who has a better recovery (versatility wise) and a better neutral game, doesn't have significant landing lag on his recovery, but other characters do.

 

[_A1]

Of course Fox can kill at 0%, but I honestly think you're a bad player if it consistently happens to you. Do you see top players dying at 9% from 2 shines?

 

[Deleted member]

Do you see top players dying at 9% from 2 shines?

Yes

#NINJA'D @ Boiko

 

[Boiko]

Of course Fox can kill at 0%, but I honestly think you're a bad player if it consistently happens to you. Do you see top players dying at 9% from 2 shines?

http://youtu.be/-P9I4SiGgGE?t=9m19s

Yes.

 

[Paradoxium]

"Yo fox is so ****ing stupid he can kill you at like zero percent"

"Wait but cant you also kill Fox at zero percent?"

"Lol a Fox player should never be in a position where they could get killed at zero percent"

"But doesn't that mean every other character shouldn't be in a position where Fox can kill them at zero percent?"

"No, because.... um because... Fox is broken! **** the melee elitists!"

#ZeroPercent

 

[JOE!]

If shine did less damage, would that mess significantly with the stun and knockback it has?

 

[Paradoxium]

Without any direct and meaningful changes/nerfs to Fox, he is just gonna end up like sonic,

A jank piece of **** with polarizing match ups



holy **** the word "Polarizing" makes me cringe, i cant believe i used it

 

[Boiko]

Yes

#NINJA'D @ Boiko

2fast4me. ;(

 

[Player -0]

Yes.

10Yes's.

 

[Soft Serve]

http://youtu.be/-P9I4SiGgGE?t=9m19s

Yes.

I dont really like this example because a lot of characters can throw X character off stage, read the quick double jump, and gimp them.

If that was unavoidable then it would have been something else. Bthrow>read DJ+ high firefox > Shine shows both sides of the coin, fox takes early stocks with shine really hard when he gets a read, but it also shows that even though fox's recovery is very easy to shut down with a quick prediction/decision making like that. If it was an Ivy getting a Bair in that situation, or something similar, it would look more like the Fox being a scrub for buring double jump early and getting read, and less like the edge guarder looking stupid strong

Not disagreeing with your points/suggestions at all, just voicing how I think examples can get used in wrong ways

Edit: I guess I'm saying what paradoxium said but less abrasively

 

[shairn]

If shine did less damage, would that mess significantly with the stun and knockback it has?

Hitstun and knockback are unrelated to damage, rather being linked to one another to my understanding.

 

[JOE!]

Hitstun and knockback are unrelated to damage, rather being linked to one another to my understanding.

It does affect shield stun though, right?

 

[Beorn]

Without any direct and meaningful changes/nerfs to Fox, he is just gonna end up like sonic,

A jank piece of **** with polarizing match ups



holy **** the word "Polarizing" makes me cringe, i cant believe i used it

That is what he has always been, but just try to convince people to change that.

 

[PlateProp]

It's funny the way we talk about Fox like he might actually be nerfed in any significant way.

But PMDT is more concerned with making PM for melee players instead of PM players. Sucks for us.