Tier List Speculation

[~Dad~]

hey guys let's make more assumptions about things and stuff


















dae melee

 

[Foo]

Why are people complaining about Luigi's recovery? Nothing has changed about it aside from down b rising higher because of simultaneous button presses. You can still easily gimp him offstage with a well timed aerial, and he'll have a lot of trouble getting back. Wait for his down b, hit him, and watch him fall. Punish the side b which he has to commit too for half a second. It's not difficult; I mean i can understand misfire being somewhat of an issue, but even that can be predictable if Luigi is far off from the stage. Even if he does misfire, you can stop it where its at with any hitbox.
Him grabbing ledge with side b has been the case since 2.5 (probably even before), so i don't see the issue here since it never was an issue before.
Down b rise only goes vertically so just throw out an aerial and its ggs.

Honestly I don't see the problem here. His recovery is decent now because of everyones recovery being nerfed, but it's still easily taken care of. Don't be afraid to go offstage.

This is in reply to some of the comments I saw about it in the previous pages.

Didn't really say many people "complaining" about it. There are just a lot of people on here who say it's a free kill whenever luigi goes off stage, and I think that's totally not true. Luigi doesn't have OP recovery, but it's certainly not bad.

@ Beorn 's changes. +1

@ B Boardwalk Deciding who the best character in the game should be is absurd. In balance, you try to make everyone even and whoever winds up being the best winds up being the best. Also, a character doesn't deserve to be better because you have to press more buttons more quickly. The trade off isn't more buttons inputs but better, it's more button inputs more fun and more precise control.

Hitstun and knockback are unrelated to damage, rather being linked to one another to my understanding.

Hitstun and knockback are twins, but damage and the former are cousins. Knockback is applied after damage, so more damage equals more knockback. In fact, charging a smash just increases the damage, and only increases knockback because of the damage. (and of course, more knockback equals more hitstun.)

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I am actually quite surprised with the misinformation about the mechanics of the game. I also assumed everyone pored over the change list and would know what changes happened, but just based on commentators that's not entirely true.

 

[AuraMaudeGone]

hey guys let's make more assumptions about things and stuff


















dae melee

Yea. Was gonna say, this thread got depressing really quickly.

 

[Paradoxium]

That is what he has always been, but just try to convince people to change that.

No Fox isn't jank yet, he is still super smooth and the most versatile character in the game.

Now Sonic on the other hand, he used to be SMOOOOOOOOOOOOOTH, back when you could cancel all his **** and his attacks felt better and whatnot. But they beat around the bush with his nerfs, until he became 3.5 sonic. I know 2.5 sonic was broken af, but you had so much control over him, that's the type of feeling I'm sure the dev team was aiming for.

But then they beat around the bush with his nerfs, we all know that the 2 things that make sonic broken are his run speed and his mobile attacks (Side B, Down B, neutral B). Other than that nothing else was really that overbearing, they could all be fixed with a few tweaks. Now look where we are, a few updates later and the same things that made sonic broken back then are still here. Only difference is that everything else about the character was **** upon. Now he is super jank.

A few more characters followed this trend. Some of them were bad characters who still have the same weaknesses, but all there strengths were buffed like crazy. Some characters were good, and are still good due to indirect nerfs. And some characters are like sonic, mid tier because they have as many really bad match ups as their really good match ups.

That's my whole thought on this thing anyways

 

[shairn]

I am actually quite surprised with the misinformation about the mechanics of the game. I also assumed everyone pored over the change list and would know what changes happened, but just based on commentators that's not entirely true.

Smash commentary is entirely hype-based
Facts aren't hype

 

[GabPR]

Didn't really say many people "complaining" about it. There are just a lot of people on here who say it's a free kill whenever luigi goes off stage, and I think that's totally not true. Luigi doesn't have OP recovery, but it's certainly not bad.

@ Beorn 's changes. +1

@ B Boardwalk Deciding who the best character in the game should be is absurd. In balance, you try to make everyone even and whoever winds up being the best winds up being the best. Also, a character doesn't deserve to be better because you have to press more buttons more quickly. The trade off isn't more buttons inputs but better, it's more button inputs more fun and more precise control.



Hitstun and knockback are twins, but damage and the former are cousins. Knockback is applied after damage, so more damage equals more knockback. In fact, charging a smash just increases the damage, and only increases knockback because of the damage. (and of course, more knockback equals more hitstun.)

Lets face it, If the best character is a spacie, no one will be happy.

Edit: Sonic is ok.

 

[Beorn]

Lets face it, If the best character is a spacie, no one will be happy.

Edit: Sonic is ok.

I have no problem with a spacie being the best character. I'm of the opinion that there has to be a best character. There isn't really a way to get around that, and if it has to happen then let it be the character with the highest tech ceiling and barriers. Fox will be this character nerfed damage and recovery or not. Right now he is just the best character by too much. Which is why I suggested a toning down of the character and making him play by the rules of the game, rather than taking away what will always make him the best and most technical character in PM and melee.

 

[JOE!]

The problem I have with a character that's like "oh, he has more tech skill so he is obviously the best" is that it by nature sort of invalidates anyone with less tech skill to be worse if you can perform the actions, etc.

 

[Strong Badam]

"Yo fox is so ****ing stupid he can kill you at like zero percent"

"Wait but cant you also kill Fox at zero percent?"

"Lol a Fox player should never be in a position where they could get killed at zero percent"

"But doesn't that mean every other character shouldn't be in a position where Fox can kill them at zero percent?"

"No, because.... um because... Fox is broken! **** the melee elitists!"

#ZeroPercent

The risk/reward ratio is certainly different in these situations. To "gimp" Fox, one must interact with him and beat out his options multiple times in a row, and missing puts you in a perilous position offstage in endlag. If Fox misses a shine in traditional situations, it's generally not a big deal because he just double jumps back to the stage and proceeds to edgeguard as a normal character would. The reward for successfully winning an interaction vs Fox as a normal character is continue an edgeguard tree that may eventually lead to a stock; for Fox, it is immediately a stock taken in his favor.

 

[JOE!]

how about we make shine only JC-able on hit lol

 

[Frost | Odds]

I have no problem with a spacie being the best character. I'm of the opinion that there has to be a best character. There isn't really a way to get around that, and if it has to happen then let it be the character with the highest tech ceiling and barriers. Fox will be this character nerfed damage and recovery or not. Right now he is just the best character by too much. Which is why I suggested a toning down of the character and making him play by the rules of the game, rather than taking away what will always make him the best and most technical character in PM and melee.

Wolf has the highest tech ceiling, and is certainly more difficult to play effectively than Fox.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Smash commentary is entirely hype-based
Facts aren't hype

You can be hype and still be correct. But when one commentator says something, and the other is like "I think that was changed to this" when no such thing ever happened. Its sad sometimes how wrong commentators can be. Thats not even getting into different styles of commentary for different moods.

 

[mimgrim]

No Fox isn't jank yet, he is still super smooth and the most versatile character in the game.

Fox (And Falco) has been "jank" since Melee. P:M Wolf is also "jank" just not as much. It's just that he (and Falco and by extension Wolf even though he wasn't in Melee) is "acceptable jank" because Melee.

If you don't think a frame 1 hitbox that is JCable on like frame 3 or 4 that starts and extends combo super easily is "jank"... well, to put it frankly, I feel sorry for your intellect. Melee Shine is one of the worst designed and "jankiest" moves ever created in Smash.

I actually think giving the Spacies (all 3 of them) Brawl Shines and leaving everything else about them the same would be a good step. But no, we can't do that "bcuz Maylay"

 

[Paradoxium]

Fox (And Falco) has been "jank" since Melee. P:M Wolf is also "jank" just not as much. It's just that he (and Falco and by extension Wolf even though he wasn't in Melee) is "acceptable jank" because Melee.

If you don't think a frame 1 hitbox that is JCable on like frame 3 or 4 that starts and extends combo super easily is "jank"... well, to put it frankly, I feel sorry for your intellect. Melee Shine is one of the worst designed and "jankiest" moves ever created in Smash.

I actually think giving the Spacies (all 3 of them) Brawl Shines and leaving everything else about them the same would be a good step. But no, we can't do that "bcuz Maylay"

We have 2 different views of what is jank and what is not jank. Fox having easily distinguishable moves and quick moves with little endlag is what I think makes him feel smooth, also his physics all go together pretty well. And no I don't think shine is jank, but I do think that weird hitbox on his upsmash is. Sorry

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Ugh, spacie talk... There are so many ways to go about nerfing fox (and the others). You can go back and force about keeping the character intact vs "jank", "toxic", "broken", or "polarizing". Whatever buzzwords you wanna use, whatever insults you wanna use, whatever sensitivity towards melee players vs pm players. It just goes on and on and on. I know this is a forum for discussion, I know this is a thread to talk about tiers, but can someone make another thread for this as it really isn't about tiers, since almost everybody puts them at the top of their tier lists. I say we move the conversation on to something interesting. Don't get me wrong, I think spacies need to be nerfed. But I have long given up on trying to figure out the politically correct, fair, or reasonable way to nerf them, so I vote for a new topic. Anything but this, its been talked to death.

Any other top tiers that are standing out?

 

[~Dad~]

Oh my god this thread is so bad.

"Fox is too good ugh"
"Shut up fox got nerfed"
"Fox is jank"
"Wolf is less jank than fox"
"Gimmicks"
"1 frame, jump cancellable semi spike yadada"

Someone please just rename this thread the "Let's ****ing fight over Fox and occasionally other melee high tiers thread".

 

[JOE!]

Ugh, spacie talk... There are so many ways to go about nerfing fox (and the others). You can go back and force about keeping the character intact vs "jank", "toxic", "broken", or "polarizing". Whatever buzzwords you wanna use, whatever insults you wanna use, whatever sensitivity towards melee players vs pm players. It just goes on and on and on. I know this is a forum for discussion, I know this is a thread to talk about tiers, but can someone make another thread for this as it really isn't about tiers, since almost everybody puts them at the top of their tier lists. I say we move the conversation on to something interesting. Don't get me wrong, I think spacies need to be nerfed. But I have long given up on trying to figure out the politically correct, fair, or reasonable way to nerf them, so I vote for a new topic. Anything but this, its been talked to death.

Any other top tiers that are standing out?

We did, but it got closed down


becus maylay

 

[TheGravyTrain]

We did, but it got closed down


becus maylay

Guess what, its because the same stuff got repeated to eternity and the thread's question was answered within like the 2nd page and everyone agreed. Maybe its a sign that we should just wait until like a couple months before the next update to bring it up hoping for changes then.

Or never, that works for me...

 

[Foo]

Fox (And Falco) has been "jank" since Melee. P:M Wolf is also "jank" just not as much. It's just that he (and Falco and by extension Wolf even though he wasn't in Melee) is "acceptable jank" because Melee.

If you don't think a frame 1 hitbox that is JCable on like frame 3 or 4 that starts and extends combo super easily is "jank"... well, to put it frankly, I feel sorry for your intellect. Melee Shine is one of the worst designed and "jankiest" moves ever created in Smash.

I actually think giving the Spacies (all 3 of them) Brawl Shines and leaving everything else about them the same would be a good step. But no, we can't do that "bcuz Maylay"

I hate to say it, but I disagree. While I think melee shines are pretty broken and if this were a completely brand new game, I wouldn't consider having them, but it's not. There are tons of players who have trained extensively with spacies and their playstyle. Effectively removing shine (let's be honest, brawl shines would basically do that) would completely change their playstyle and make them entirely different characters. As much fun as it is to say "Well, **** spacie players, they can go back to melee" it really isn't fair to them. I know how it felt when something similar (but much less drastic) happened to my character.

At this point, it's probably best to balance them around shine.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I hate to say it, but I disagree. While I think melee shines are pretty broken and if this were a completely brand new game, I wouldn't consider having them, but it's not. There are tons of players who have trained extensively with spacies and their playstyle. Effectively removing shine (let's be honest, brawl shines would basically do that) would completely change their playstyle and make them entirely different characters. As much fun as it is to say "Well, **** spacie players, they can go back to melee" it really isn't fair to them. I know how it felt when something similar (but much less drastic) happened to my character.

At this point, it's probably best to balance them around shine.

I agree with this. That comment about stop talking about fox was almost this, but then I lost it and ranted (lol). I would say toning down their neutral should be number one priority (whether its weakening shield pressure, lazers, shff speed, run speed, dash dance, whatever). I would also add landing lag because thats stupid... Then I would weaken tech rolls for characters like ZSS who rely on tech chases for spacies at low percents to make their punish game a little better. I think the damage reduction mentioned earlier is great. When I got hit by a fox up air and saw 18%, I didn't even know what to think. But with the rate at which the PMDT makes changes to them, that will be like 5 versions from now. And thats why I hate this discussion...

 

[PlateProp]

I hate to say it, but I disagree. While I think melee shines are pretty broken and if this were a completely brand new game, I wouldn't consider having them, but it's not. There are tons of players who have trained extensively with spacies and their playstyle. Effectively removing shine (let's be honest, brawl shines would basically do that) would completely change their playstyle and make them entirely different characters. As much fun as it is to say "Well, **** spacie players, they can go back to melee" it really isn't fair to them. I know how it felt when something similar (but much less drastic) happened to my character.

At this point, it's probably best to balance them around shine.

>Balancing character around broken move
You're basically saying that 3.5 was a waste of time then and that we should all go back to playing 3.02, where pmbr tried to balance everyone to Fax/Flaco with that

And look how that turned out

And srsly, this whole "becuz maylay" **** needs to stop. Who cares if you spent years practicing Fox ****? What makes that time worth more than the time I could have put into one of the brawl PM characters, only for all of that time to be wasted because of major changes?

 

[JOE!]

And srsly, this whole "becuz maylay" **** needs to stop. Who cares if you spent years practicing Fox ****? What makes that time worth more than the time I could have put into one of the brawl PM characters, only for all of that time to be wasted because of major changes?

THIS

Seriously, why is it so special for some characters to "retain their developed meta", but then in the same breath be like "Ah, lets totally change up other characters to be nigh unrecognizable to their old mains"

 

[Bleck]

Yea. Was gonna say, this thread got depressing really quickly.

"got"

 

[Boardwalk]

@ Foo "Deciding who the best character in the game should be is absurd. In balance, you try to make everyone even and whoever winds up being the best winds up being the best. Also, a character doesn't deserve to be better because you have to press more buttons more quickly. The trade off isn't more buttons inputs but better, it's more button inputs more fun and more precise control. "

i am not saying that we need to decide who the top tier characters are right now. the best characters should emerge naturally as people develop their own metagame by practicing their own characters. fox has been played and optimized for more then a decade with melee. fox does not carry any hidden potential.(although we can probably all agree his potential is more than any human player will ever achieve)

maybe it is wrong to look at it as more buttons=better character. but to some extent i think that should be true.
maybe it is better to say the best character in the game should be the hardest character to control. (atleast one of the hardest)
to precisely control spacies requires technical skill.
however, smash is not just about pressing buttons.
it take way more strategy than skill to be successful
the best players in the world are a combination of the two.

 

[howbadisbad]

THIS

Seriously, why is it so special for some characters to "retain their developed meta", but then in the same breath be like "Ah, lets totally change up other characters to be nigh unrecognizable to their old mains"

To be fair, all the melee vets still have their same general playstyle that they had in melee.

The only characters with significant changes were brawl characters, because lets be honest... Do you really want to play against a character who's winning strategy is to get the percent lead then run away and airdodge for 8 minutes?

 

[Bleck]

Do you really want to play against a character who's winning strategy is to get the percent lead then run away and airdodge for 8 minutes?

no, I don't want to play against Fox

 

[EddyBearr]

Landing lag on Fox's up-b sounds particularly appealing because it removes up-b -> uair, even if technically his recovery isn't too good.

Honestly, because of kill combos off recovery and fast recovery moves, I think Fox has one of the greater recoveries.

 

[PlateProp]

To be fair, all the melee vets still have their same general playstyle that they had in melee.

The only characters with significant changes were brawl characters, because lets be honest... Do you really want to play against a character who's winning strategy is to get the percent lead then run away and airdodge for 8 minutes?

This has to be one of the hardest failings to read correctly ever lol

Also there's this thing called Runaway Fox

New Meta guys, even the problems in brawl trace back to fox, illuminati confirmed

 

[JOE!]

To be fair, all the melee vets still have their same general playstyle that they had in melee.

The only characters with significant changes were brawl characters, because lets be honest... Do you really want to play against a character who's winning strategy is to get the percent lead then run away and airdodge for 8 minutes?

(May be off here and there but this is all just off the top of my head)

are all melee vets that got some fairly significant changes.

were all changed significantly, but had a lot of stuff more or less retained from their brawl selves in terms of how they operate.

are melee vets that more or less are the same with little tweaks here and there.

Given how the majority of the melee cast had moves straight up replaced or changed significantly in how you work with them, and the brawl characters with development since 2008 were free to be changed up while still retaining their "characterization" if you will (except like, Lucario and Lucas I guess lol), what makes the handful at the bottom so special?

 

[hamyojo]

Allow me to state, up-front, my agenda.

1. I would like PM to be as balanced as possible.
2. I think Fox is the biggest single obstacle in the way of (1)
3. I would like Bowser to be better in relation to the cast - both selfishly (because I play Bowser), and as a result of (1), which is to say that Bowser still sucks pretty hard. Fox isn't (relatively speaking) a huge problem for Bowser, but I do find it annoying that Fox is allowed to be as good as he is, while Bowser is as bad as he is.
4. Have some damn fun while posting on a forum about a video game.

I don't think any of this is a secret to anyone. If I have a suggestion that I think may prove useful in terms of balance, I'm liable to present it, and try to make sure people are aware of the idea - either

1. to reject it entirely and explain why (for example, that perhaps hitting Fox in the tech roll wouldn't actually help balance him any for some unknown reason),
2. to present constructive criticism, or
3. to help make the PMDT aware of the idea's potential.

Anyway, the statement that squirtle, more than anyone in the game (particularly Fox), deserves to have the worst tech roll, struck me as uniquely laughable, so I thought pointing it out (thus serving Agenda Points 1-4) would be beneficial. I also happen to think the change would be a step in the right direction, for the reasons previously stated. You haven't really addressed any of them, which makes me a sad panda.

All roads lead to Bowser's Castle, yo

I completely agree that Fox needs to be nerfed. He is a problem. He is also the best character.
It's just that I don't want that to be the only focus of this discussion. Like, I rarely see discussion on Pit or Lucas or Puff. I think basing tech rolls off of character size would make a lot of sense. Bowsers the biggest, Squirtle's the smallest, but don't make the difference that huge. Make that kind of thing more normalized. It's not about who deserves what, it's about what makes a game well designed. Nerfing random **** is just so counter productive to make a better game in the long run... I really just want to talk about a character that isn't Fox. We're missing so much.

 

[steelguttey]

i mean what can you do its a tier thread

every tier thread is talking about the best character in the game for a while then some fking guy with 2 post and an avatar that was screen cap'd with a potato is like "hey guiz what do u think of my low tier character" and then a ****storm ensues. someone then mentions something about the top tier character and the cycle repeats

idk why i even go on these anymore i hate you all

 

[Beorn]

I completely agree that Fox needs to be nerfed. He is a problem. He is also the best character.
It's just that I don't want that to be the only focus of this discussion. Like, I rarely see discussion on Pit or Lucas or Puff. I think basing tech rolls off of character size would make a lot of sense. Bowsers the biggest, Squirtle's the smallest, but don't make the difference that huge. Make that kind of thing more normalized. It's not about who deserves what, it's about what makes a game well designed. Nerfing random **** is just so counter productive to make a better game in the long run... I really just want to talk about a character that isn't Fox. We're missing so much.

Isn't that what the character forums have been doing? You wanna go look at people discussing Link, go to the Link threads. It's like this in all of the character threads. The people that care about x character will go to x character's 3.5 thread in their respective sub-forum. This thread is talking about where they place. The big problems within the tier list. Top 5 or Bottom 5. Problems that people feel strongly about. People will sometimes comment when a new development occurs, like when people found out how good Tlink is now or Rob.

No one in this thread is going to want to heavily discuss a bunch of characters people feel are in a good place. Those characters don't matter when it comes to tiers. Those players are in their sub forum discussing or getting better with a character they feel is where they need to be balance wise. People want to know who is bad and who is good. The problem here is no one really agrees on any character being bad, but Bowser and Olimar, and they have been discussed quite a bit in this thread.

 

[DrinkingFood]

We should give fox a good fair, like his 64 fair animation with a low angle of knockback. Like Diddy's old fair but with less knockback. And then melee players will have something genuinely new and cool and useful to play with as fox, and then we can nerf the **** outta him
All in favor

Hurry up and agree so we can talk about other characters
Fox

 

[JOE!]

I think treating the guys I mentioned in my earlier post like everyone else by giving new coats of paint would do wonders in the long run

 

[Badge]

im not saying he should be the best but you cant deny that fox might be the most technically demanding player on the roster.
should the best character be the hardest to play?
i think that a few adjustments could be made to him but he is the best because he is a technical monster.

Fox has neither the highest tech floor nor the highest tech ceiling. All of Lucas, Wolf, ICs and Lucario can be easily argued to be much harder, usually in both regards and even some slow characters like Peach or Mewtwo require more work to be effective. Once you have your fundamental tech skill down (shorthops, shffls, wavedashes, early aerials - every character profits from those), all Fox requires is doing that fast. Doing stuff fast may be strenuous sometimes, but it's also sometimes easier than doing it not as fast but still as fast as possible (because you can't just do it as fast as you can and hit the perfect timings.)

I hate to say it, but I disagree. While I think melee shines are pretty broken and if this were a completely brand new game, I wouldn't consider having them, but it's not. There are tons of players who have trained extensively with spacies and their playstyle. Effectively removing shine (let's be honest, brawl shines would basically do that) would completely change their playstyle and make them entirely different characters. As much fun as it is to say "Well, **** spacie players, they can go back to melee" it really isn't fair to them. I know how it felt when something similar (but much less drastic) happened to my character.

Making tech skill obsolete or significantly changing a character's play style feels terrible for the respective character's mains and shouldn't be done unless necessary. But if the character's design doesn't align with the game's paradigms it has to be done. Spacies should get the same treatment as every other character. Whether that be 3.0 design or 3.5 design, doesn't matter.

I've spend hundreds of hours practicing Lucas from whenever he was first released and especially in 3.0, trying to learn multimagnets (i.e. the ones, where you alternate between aerial and grounded magnet), ac DJC PKF and sh Magnet->DJ->waveland among other stuff. Every single one of them is harder than multishines and just when I was getting consistent, 3.5 happens and every single one of the aforementioned techs changed significantly or even became impossible. Now my control over Lucas is worse than over any random character I never practiced (except for Yoshi and maybe Peach), not even in spite of me putting so much work into Lucas, but because of it.
Still, due to my practice with Lucas it's super easy to pick up any character without much character specific tech skill including Wolf and Fox and do anything but shortens or the like. Why should Fox mains be protected from this? If they really didn't want to play with Fox anymore after the changes, they could switch to some other character and mostly transfer their skills of pressing buttons fast.

If shines are a problem, change shines. Better now than later, better later than never. Same applies to every other move, even character.


Now with the salt out of the way:

Hitstun and knockback are twins, but damage and the former are cousins. Knockback is applied after damage, so more damage equals more knockback.

To be clear, an attack dealing more damage also directly increases knockback. E.g. hitting somebody with an attack that deals 5 damage while he/she/it's at 40%, changing the attack to deal 20 damage and then hitting the same character with the attack but at 25% will result in significantly more knocback.

Like, I rarely see discussion on Pit or Lucas or Puff.

At the very least Lucas now plays very differently than before. I haven't put enough time into him to predict any tier placement, but he's not barely changed like implied by some people a few pages ago. Most of his great neutral tools (FAir, Magnet, PKF) go nerfed significantly. Especially the approach of just throwing out safe magnets in neutral that combo on hit and also lead into the best shield pressure in the game/guaranteed footstool->djc aerials doesn't work anymore. DAir isn't a 0 to death anymore and also combos worse (i.e. you can't kill off of one hit on tech skill alone anymore). Combos probably last less time and/or are harder now due to changes to ZAir, DTilt and UAir. etc.

I'm interested in seeing how the character develops. He might still be good, but if he rises in tier lists it will probably be slowly like last time.

 

[The_NZA]

Shine is fine--it is what allows spacies to pressure up close. Fox, right now, has some of the worst range on attacks, even if he has high manueverability, and we already know how well he punishes. Changing shine would, in addition to obvoiusly pissing people off, would push Fox into a campier niche since approaching would always be so risky. No one wants that--trust me. Falco would probably stay in tact and replace shine usage with jabs and dtilts into followups. Regardless, I don't know why we are having a conversation about something that will never be changed.

Shine will NEVER be changed extensively on the character. That would simply alienate the entire audience 3.5 was aimed at bringing back (on top of it being a bad move for the game more generally). If there is a change to fox, it will be done to something that will not change the play experience of fox, whether that's an usmash change, a recovery nerf of some type or something else.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh my god this thread is so bad.

"Fox is too good ugh"
"Shut up fox got nerfed"
"Fox is jank"
"Wolf is less jank than fox"
"Gimmicks"
"1 frame, jump cancellable semi spike yadada"

Someone please just rename this thread the "Let's ****ing fight over Fox and occasionally other melee high tiers thread".

when fox is fixed, we will stop. no one here is ******** about falco.

 

[RelaxAlax]

This is how I see it -

Why do I play Ganondorf?
1. I love the character
2. His play-style is right for me

If someone plays Fox in PM, it's either because:

1. They play him in Melee and want to retain their skill and win
2. They want to win.

Why does Fox get to be the special snowflake?

Alternatively, allow me to play devils advocate. Maybe it's just because Fox has already been pushed so far versus the rest of the cast. Maybe there are chambers of secrets hidden in other unlikely characters untapped or still a mystery to some players. Hell, I learn new things about my character each time I play him. I think it's just history (when is it not) that makes the Melee copy//paste/add filter characters good. Alternatively, I'm very comfortable playing against Melee characters because of knowing how to handle them or knowing what to expect.

So, my thoughts on it? I hate that Fox is the best and crap, but whatever lol

 

[TTTTTsd]

when fox is fixed, we will stop. no one here is *****ing about falco.

Honestly this pretty much. Falco has barely been mentioned (only by proxy of shine) and while I think he's still marginally dumb I think it's ok because he dies easy and his recovery is poop blahblah.

I don't know where to start with Fox but you could easily like, change how fast he racks up damage slightly and you'd probably have it more fair. But like, there's so much weight that's gotta go into these choices that I feel like I'm not inclined 100% to say that would fix anything but, I think it'd be a start. (It'd make sense if Fox had reduced damage but Falco didn't given how their playstyles are but then would everyone just jump to Falco? Dunno.)