Tier List Speculation

[Foo]

>Balancing character around broken move
You're basically saying that 3.5 was a waste of time then and that we should all go back to playing 3.02, where pmbr tried to balance everyone to Fax/Flaco with that

And look how that turned out

And srsly, this whole "becuz maylay" **** needs to stop. Who cares if you spent years practicing Fox ****? What makes that time worth more than the time I could have put into one of the brawl PM characters, only for all of that time to be wasted because of major changes?

PLS. Most characters didn't have mechanics outright removed, and when they did, I didn't like the changes. Nerfing fireball damage doesn't and iasa doesn't really change mario at his core. I mean, think about it, everything that spacies do is completely shine based. If you removed (jump cancel) shine, their playstyles would be unrecognizable. As a zss player, I hated her changes because they took away a lot of what made zss zss, but she still basically plays the same minus throwing out blaster every time she touched the ground. She's not a totally different character, but even that change was a little too far imo. I spent a long time practicing zss, and a long time studying her, but my time wasn't made wasted by the changes. There are very few if any characters changed as much as no shine spacies.

Also, I think it's obvious what makes the years spacie players spent mastering him more valuable than the years you didn't spend mastering characters that didn't exist during most of those years.

Plus, I'm not saying "Don't nerf fox." I'm also not saying "Don't nerf shine." I am saying "Don't remove shine." Reducing it's effectiveness is certainly on the table for me, but I don't think it's too broken to be balance able. Let's be honest, shine is a really fun thing for the player to use. It's just not fun at all to play against because of how overpowered they are atm. Reduce the range, the damage, the effectiveness etc. Also, nerf the absurd aerial damage and some other things and fox will be fine. For wolf, just don't make shine such an insane combo starter. No one should get zero to deaths off of a frame 1 safe move.

THIS

Seriously, why is it so special for some characters to "retain their developed meta", but then in the same breath be like "Ah, lets totally change up other characters to be nigh unrecognizable to their old mains"

You and plate both need to calm down with your strawmans. I never said anything like that. I have absolutely no fox bias. If I had to delete one character from the roster, it'd be fox. I wouldn't even think about it. Also, I don't like changing any character that drastically in terms of playstyle. Like, you have to admit removing jc on shine would make spacies totally new characters.

i mean what can you do its a tier thread

every tier thread is talking about the best character in the game for a while then some fking guy with 2 post and an avatar that was screen cap'd with a potato is like "hey guiz what do u think of my low tier character" and then a ****storm ensues. someone then mentions something about the top tier character and the cycle repeats

idk why i even go on these anymore i hate you all

Who died and gave you the right to decide what we are allowed to talk about? There's lots to be discussed about spacies and top tiers, but there is very little to be discussed about the low tiers, and everyone above low tier and below top tier is in a pretty good spot. If you don't like that, you can try to start a new discussion and hope people want to talk about it. If not.....

 

[JOE!]

I was never addressing you with that post, Foo, but rather questioning why some characters are sacred and some aren't. The majority of melee characters got altered and you can argue they've had just as much play time as the top 8, where is the defense of them other than "oh, they needed changes". Like, it annoys me when people talk of melee players and characters as only top8 characters/mains, the others don't seem to count lol.

Anyway, I don't think anyone is suggesting to remove shine or truly change the core of how Fox or the other spacies play. Instead, I'd just like to see his power on various moves adjusted (and like Drinking Food said also give back a new Fair or something) that not only makes fighting against Fox a better experience, but also gives Fox mains a new tool to use as compensation for lowering his other attributes.

 

[Deleted member]

if we accept that shine is at the core of the character, then we have no choice but to balance the character around a fundamentally flawed design. which we can do, as we've seen with sonic zelda ICs falco, but we really should be addressing the rest of the character too.

 

[mimgrim]

Anyway, I don't think anyone is suggesting to remove shine

I am!

But then again, I don't care if a character gets drastically changed (even my own). If it ends up being the character I play? Ah well. I'll just move on and find a new character that has the best feel in the new patch. It doesn't bother me. Changing Shine (outside of things like different damage, like the suggestion I saw of making Wolf's Shine not be such a good ridiculous combo starter/extender) or removing Shine. Either one is going to change up how they play rather drastically. Turn Melee Shine into Brawl Shine and it makes Fox a more campier and niche character? Well guess what, run away Fox already exists (and I would argue that run away Fox is the most optimal play style to play Fox already but eh). But hey, its not like it is going to ever happen anyway.

 

[PlateProp]

if we accept that shine is at the core of the character, then we have no choice but to balance the character around a fundamentally flawed design. which we can do, as we've seen with sonic zelda ICs falco, but we really should be addressing the rest of the character too.

When Umbreon swoops in and remakes the point that Foo ignored in my post

DESTRUCTION

 

[Rizner]

if we accept that shine is at the core of the character, then we have no choice but to balance the character around a fundamentally flawed design. which we can do, as we've seen with sonic zelda ICs falco, but we really should be addressing the rest of the character too.

What would you say the core of Zelda and redesign around it was? Or are you saying pre 3.5?

 

[Frost | Odds]

It's just that I don't want that to be the only focus of this discussion. Like, I rarely see discussion on Pit or Lucas or Puff. I think basing tech rolls off of character size would make a lot of sense. Bowsers the biggest, Squirtle's the smallest, but don't make the difference that huge. Make that kind of thing more normalized. It's not about who deserves what, it's about what makes a game well designed. Nerfing random **** is just so counter productive to make a better game in the long run... I really just want to talk about a character that isn't Fox. We're missing so much.

Hey, I agree with literally every part of that post.

I think Mewtwo actually has the best TR at the moment - someone correct me if I'm wrong?

I've played around with pit only a very tiny bit; and know very little. He just feels really lackluster - I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to be doing with him.

Puff is bad in Melee, and she's worse now. Not much to say there, but I'd be really wary of buffing her due to how infamously unfun she is to play against.

Lucas crushes bowser, and that's pretty much all I know about him. :/

 

[Binary Clone]

I also have no idea how to play Pit.

I think Puff needs a redesign. I'm definitely not the first person to say this, but she's just badly designed. She has like 4 or 5 actually useable moves, and because Rest is so overpowering in her moveset, it's tough to buff other moves as they are now without them becoming OP by proxy through Rest. I mean, if Sing was useful at all, it would basically be broken, because whenever it made contact it'd be a free rest.

 

[Boiko]

I also have no idea how to play Pit.

I think Puff needs a redesign. I'm definitely not the first person to say this, but she's just badly designed. She has like 4 or 5 actually useable moves, and because Rest is so overpowering in her moveset, it's tough to buff other moves as they are now without them becoming OP by proxy through Rest. I mean, if Sing was useful at all, it would basically be broken, because whenever it made contact it'd be a free rest.

Idk, I think Puff plays very similarly to her melee counterpart but with a few added tricks. The style that made her so effective in melee isn't as powerful in PM due to various characters' recovery enhancements. I still think she's fine though, I mean, Hungrybox 6-1'd Sethlon.

 

[JOE!]

A character focused on gimps primary bodied a character with bottom tier recovery? Surprised me...

 

[JayTheUnseen]

Weird question time-how is G&W vs Charizard?

 

[Deleted member]

What would you say the core of Zelda and redesign around it was? Or are you saying pre 3.5?

zelda is somewhat defined by her light weight and poor mobility. while the light weight is simply a disadvantage, low mobility is crippling in a game based so strongly on movement. imo the best way to handle polarizing attributes is to normalize them such that they still keep their flavor while trying to keep them from being problematic. for the example at hand, at about this time last year i asked the development team to increase zelda's weight and run speed, while nerfing fox's upsmash since it has such a strong impact on her viability. as you can see, zelda is much better designed this time around.

 

[Frost | Odds]

imo the best way to handle polarizing attributes is to normalize them such that they still keep their flavor while trying to keep them from being problematic.

Agreed. Yet, according to pretty much everyone I've asked, it'd be the end of the world if Bowser was merely the size of a large condo rather than an entire apartment block.

 

[PlateProp]

Hey, I agree with literally every part of that post.

I think Mewtwo actually has the best TR at the moment - someone correct me if I'm wrong?

I've played around with pit only a very tiny bit; and know very little. He just feels really lackluster - I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to be doing with him.

Puff is bad in Melee, and she's worse now. Not much to say there, but I'd be really wary of buffing her due to how infamously unfun she is to play against.

Lucas crushes bowser, and that's pretty much all I know about him. :/

Pit is basically a more mobile puff, but I feel as if he may have got hit too hard in 3.5 He just feels awkward to use now. Like a metaphorical cog in his system is jammed or something

 

[NWRL]

Agreed. Yet, according to pretty much everyone I've asked, it'd be the end of the world if Bowser was merely the size of a large condo rather than an entire apartment block.

Yeah his size is what helps and hinders him so much, it was a rather silly design choice imo

 

[steelguttey]

Who died and gave you the right to decide what we are allowed to talk about? There's lots to be discussed about spacies and top tiers, but there is very little to be discussed about the low tiers, and everyone above low tier and below top tier is in a pretty good spot. If you don't like that, you can try to start a new discussion and hope people want to talk about it. If not.....

so what im getting at from this is that youre telling me i cant dictate what we talk about

and then say we should be talking about top tiers and not low tiers

kk

 

[Warhawk]

Honestly surprised that increasing the landing lag on the space animal's up-bs wasn't one of the first adjustments tried. I always thought it seemed like an easy adjustment to try out for them and their up-bs are kinda silly anyways.

 

[The_NZA]

zelda is somewhat defined by her light weight and poor mobility. while the light weight is simply a disadvantage, low mobility is crippling in a game based so strongly on movement. imo the best way to handle polarizing attributes is to normalize them such that they still keep their flavor while trying to keep them from being problematic. for the example at hand, at about this time last year i asked the development team to increase zelda's weight and run speed, while nerfing fox's upsmash since it has such a strong impact on her viability. as you can see, zelda is much better designed this time around.

I'm sorry but that's not the game I and many people want. I like a game where Falcon is insanely fast, Spacies fast fall intensely compared to any other character, Jiggs is this incredibly floaty character with an amazing weave, and Link has strong meaty hits and projectiles that work in tandem to create combos.

If I wanted characters to be normalized while maintaining their flavors, I would have played Melee, where 4 of the top 7 characters are incredibly mobile, 4 of the top 7 characters have low lag low startup moves that link together to pressure shields, 5 of the top 7 characters fall somewhat fast or are heavy, and everyone works becuase they are comprised of low startup aerials with low endlag.

I play PM so that I can see a far greater diversity of playstyles, including fox's god pressure with low range, high mobility combat, who is death touched by everyone.

 

[Rizner]

zelda is somewhat defined by her light weight and poor mobility. while the light weight is simply a disadvantage, low mobility is crippling in a game based so strongly on movement. imo the best way to handle polarizing attributes is to normalize them such that they still keep their flavor while trying to keep them from being problematic. for the example at hand, at about this time last year i asked the development team to increase zelda's weight and run speed, while nerfing fox's upsmash since it has such a strong impact on her viability. as you can see, zelda is much better designed this time around.

Ah, ok. I understand what you were saying now. Thanks

 

[Comeback Kid]

Why fight really hard for the top tier to look exactly like Melee again while saying you don't want Melee again? It's highly contradictory. Give the team the freedom to change stuff or stick up for the status quo.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm sorry but that's not the game I and many people want. I like a game where Falcon is insanely fast, Spacies fast fall intensely compared to any other character, Jiggs is this incredibly floaty character with an amazing weave, and Link has strong meaty hits and projectiles that work in tandem to create combos.

If I wanted characters to be normalized while maintaining their flavors, I would have played Melee, where 4 of the top 7 characters are incredibly mobile, 4 of the top 7 characters have low lag low startup moves that link together to pressure shields, 5 of the top 7 characters fall somewhat fast or are heavy, and everyone works becuase they are comprised of low startup aerials with low endlag.

I play PM so that I can see a far greater diversity of playstyles, including fox's god pressure with low range, high mobility combat, who is death touched by everyone.

the problem with that is you end up with a bunch of really one-sided and non-interactive match-ups, which is exactly what melee has so few viable characters across the cast.

 

[The_NZA]

the problem with that is you end up with a bunch of really one-sided and non-interactive match-ups, which is exactly what melee has so few viable characters across the cast.

I don't consider the matchups across the top 5-6 characters in Melee as non-interactive. Everyone below 6 has far bigger problems than losing because of polarization--they legitimately suck, outside of ICs who get by on the advantage of being polarized, and falcon who could conceivably be pushed farther and may have succeeded better if the stage pool was different.

I believe it is possible to aim for a fully viable cast without removing things that make characters special. That list includes quickdraw, shine, and a bunch of other things.

 

[Deleted member]

the bottom characters in melee suck because they don't have favorable ways to interact with the good characters, and if you play the matchup correctly with the good characters you can simply exploit their flaws (or if you want to think about it this way, your character's design flaws). there are many easy examples of this across the cast- zelda can't beat falcon's dashdance, DK can't beat falco lasers, roy can't beat CC abuse. if for whatever reason you choose not to take advantage of these aspects, it's really not that bad anymore, but why wouldn't you? why let roy be a real opponent when you can hold down all match? why not just dashdance zelda out of the game? by mitigating the polarizing aspects, either by nerfing falcon's dashdance or by increasing zelda's run speed, or both, suddenly the match-up is fun and playable again on both sides. this is ultimately the best way to make a wide cast of 41 characters viable while eliminating non-interactive matchups.

i agree that nothing needs to be removed, but it can certainly be normalized.

 

[JOE!]

At the same time it shouldnt be normalized too much, as that makes things sort of stagnant

Weird question time-how is G&W vs Charizard?

I think GW wins slightly overall, but its all guesswork.

http://smashboards.com/threads/3-5-match-up-thread.388452/

Here I made a discussion about 3.5 Zard's MUs if anybody has thoughts on how their characters fair against the resident fire type. The listing is all like, preliminary guesswork based on musings in our Skype Group atm.

 

[NWRL]

@Lunchables or @Juushichi

What about QD would you like to see changed, and what makes it too strong of option in your opinion?

 

[Deleted member]

QD is too strong of an option due to its large amount of jump cancel options. You can easily condition your opponent into shielding due to your ability to WD, grab, do an aerial, or upsmash. This combined with his AMAZING grab game makes it so that his risk reward is waaaaay too heavily in his reward favor. Ikes grabs are ridiculous, adding them onto something like a burst movement mixup option is really powerful.

My current solution would likely be to remove JC grab from it, but I actually don't know if that'd work. I don't really like the idea of just nerfing his throws to nerf side b, since side b would still have lots of mixup options.

Idk, I think Puff plays very similarly to her melee counterpart but with a few added tricks. The style that made her so effective in melee isn't as powerful in PM due to various characters' recovery enhancements. I still think she's fine though, I mean, Hungrybox 6-1'd Sethlon.

Let me rephrase this post

"Puff is good vs melee vets but sucks vs pm characters. But I mean cmon guys, she's not so bad. Look at this puff player who beat a melee vet character."

 

[Ripple]

Ike shouldn't have such a quick nair imo. Like, it needs double the start up. it allows him to just throw it out if someone actually manages to get into his space.

QD is fine with me

 

[didds]

QD is fine with me

DeDeDe is broken, nerfs!

 

[Deleted member]

Ike shouldn't have such a quick nair imo. Like, it needs double the start up. it allows him to just throw it out if someone actually manages to get into his space.

QD is fine with me

This is incredibly character biased/character specific, you play DDD. Ofcourse you'd think that since nair is a **** ton better vs ddd and your f tilt/side b beat out QD

 

[MLGF]

I haven't heard Ike complaints since 2.0...
Sweet, we've gone full circle.

But still, you complaints get no sympathy from me.

And **** nerfing nair.
Like... no... just no.

 

[Ripple]

Hey, I don't go into ike's space. He comes into mine.

 

[Sethlon]

I think Puff needs a redesign. I'm definitely not the first person to say this, but she's just badly designed. She has like 4 or 5 actually useable moves, and because Rest is so overpowering in her moveset, it's tough to buff other moves as they are now without them becoming OP by proxy through Rest. I mean, if Sing was useful at all, it would basically be broken, because whenever it made contact it'd be a free rest.

Having played against Hungrybox and been hit from him by like every single move other than rollout and upB, I'm gonna have to disagree that she only has 4 or 5 usable moves. She has a handful of godlike moves and a bunch of okay ones. Okay moves can still be very much usable, it just takes a dedicated player to find their niche.

 

[Deleted member]

Hey, I don't go into ike's space. He comes into mine.

With QD

DUN DUN DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN *insert dramatic **** here*

 

[DrinkingFood]

Lunchies why do you hate reliable combo throws so much
Did somebody grab you as a kid

 

[GP&B]

Lunchies why do you hate reliable combo throws so much
Did somebody grab you as a kid

it's funny because Lunch is a kid

 

[Deleted member]

I'm ok with reliable throws that create tech chase situations or only true combo at low/mid instead of ridiculously high %s. I'm also kind of ok with characters that have risky grabs but good rewards, like link.

I don't like robs d throw because it basically does everything you'd ever want a throw to do. CG, guarantee combos, and guarantee kills. It's also on a regular grab lol

I also don't like ikes grab because even though his throws are worse than robs, his QD more than makes up for that.

Edit: I'm a pretty big fan of positional throws since overall better players understand how to make better use of them instead of "Welp I grabbed you, time to die."

 

[hamyojo]

I'm ok with reliable throws that create tech chase situations or only true combo at low/mid instead of ridiculously high %s. I'm also kind of ok with characters that have risky grabs but good rewards, like link.

I don't like robs d throw because it basically does everything you'd ever want a throw to do. CG, guarantee combos, and guarantee kills. It's also on a regular grab lol

I also don't like ikes grab because even though his throws are worse than robs, his QD more than makes up for that.

Edit: I'm a pretty big fan of positional throws since overall better players understand how to make better use of them instead of "Welp I grabbed you, time to die."

Yoshi's grabs and throws are fair and balanced

 

[Strawhat Jiggs]

I'm ok with reliable throws that create tech chase situations or only true combo at low/mid instead of ridiculously high %s. I'm also kind of ok with characters that have risky grabs but good rewards, like link.

I don't like robs d throw because it basically does everything you'd ever want a throw to do. CG, guarantee combos, and guarantee kills. It's also on a regular grab lol

I also don't like ikes grab because even though his throws are worse than robs, his QD more than makes up for that.

Edit: I'm a pretty big fan of positional throws since overall better players understand how to make better use of them instead of "Welp I grabbed you, time to die."

... Like Link.... have you played Link in 3.5 he doesn't exactly have to many follow-ups out of his throws now a days.

 

[Boiko]

Let me rephrase this post

"Puff is good vs melee vets but sucks vs pm characters. But I mean cmon guys, she's not so bad. Look at this puff player who beat a melee vet character."

Yeah, and that's totally fair, but it can't be looked at in a vacuum like that. Samus is a melee vet, but now with ice mode, she has reliable ways to kill puff and doesn't need to really on her puny F-smash, a stray missile, or reading with a charge shot. Although I will agree that Roy is mostly the same.

Do you know who else was at that tournament though? I don't. So Hbox may have had some more notable wins.

 

[Deleted member]

... Like Link.... have you played Link in 3.5 he doesn't exactly have to many follow-ups out of his throws now a days.

His D throw after early % is a free followup

It's still pretty good.

Yeah, and that's totally fair, but it can't be looked at in a vacuum like that. Samus is a melee vet, but now with ice mode, she has reliable ways to kill puff and doesn't need to really on her puny F-smash, a stray missile, or reading with a charge shot. Although I will agree that Roy is mostly the same.

Do you know who else was at that tournament though? I don't. So Hbox may have had some more notable wins.

I was watching the tourney/checked the bracket. The only real notable person he had to beat besides sethlon was oracle, and it came down to game 5 and oracle choked it away. Puff probably doesn't even have problems with rob seeing as how his d throw doesn't destroy her and her aerial mobility lets her stuff robs side b shenanigans.