Tier List Speculation

[MonkUnit]

crouch wait and crawl forward/backward is 7% armor

 

[Hylian]

proper jc usmash in melee with fox actually isn't easy aka it's the claw style technique where you move your index finger to Y and press up cstick while running so you don't need to alter the direction of the analog stick. This allows for the fastest upsmash while running. While this is something that is mostly mastered in high level melee, you see people mess this up ALL the time in matches and not always go for the perfect up smash tech chases with fox. In PM this is really really easy.

learn what you are talking about please

What? You can just press up on the Analog stick and then press A. What you said is no faster than using the analog stick to jump. Dash cancelling your upsmash generally works as well and also combos out of all the standard things you need it for. Not to mention clawing things is generally easier than not clawing. For example waveshining is much easier when clawing so I don't understand why having to claw something makes it hard. I don't know what melee you watch but I hardly ever see people mess up JC upsmash and I've been going to melee tournaments since 2003 lmao. It's hard for me to even believe people have a problem with it. I still JC all my upsmashes in PM with fox just because I'm used to doing it in melee.

 

[Scythe]

What? You can just press up on the Analog stick and then press A. .

not optimal but i'm not arguing this anymore

 

[Hylian]

not optimal but i'm not arguing this anymore

I mean unless I'm unaware of something jumping with Y and jumping with the analog stick takes the same amount of frames, and doing an upsmash with the c-stick and A takes the same amount of frames...it's literally the exact same thing. You don't lose any momentum using the control stick unless you are absurdly slow at pressing up lol so I'm not sure what you are talking about, and I'm quite curious.

Edit: I was informed that running upsmash in PM is probably 1 frame faster than JC upsmash because you don't have the jump frame. That makes sense.

I was also informed that my method of JC-upsmash is the exact same frames as what you said, so I'm really curious as to what the proper method of JC upsmash is and why it's better than just using the control stick to jump. Especially with your snide "Learn what you are talking about please" remark.

 

[Mithost]

I was going to writeup a tier list but I'll just explain what I want to highlight.

I think ZSS is low tier, and one of the lesser characters in the game right now. This will probably change once ZSS gets more development, but right now (in the current metagame), she does not play well against a large portion of the cast.

Game & Watch has finally proven himself to me, and he deserves to be from mid-high mid tier IMO. I can't explain it very well, but I've seen him do pretty well recently and I'm doing good in my little community with him.

Bowser is currently at the bottom of my Top Tier. His spot depends on if Bowser learns how to deal with spacies or if the spacies learn how to deal with Bowser. Whichever happens first.

This game is ridiculously balanced, and a tier list for the game is kinda moot for traditional use seeing that almost every character in the game can go against almost every character in the game without some ridiculous balance issues getting in the way.

 

[Oro?!]

Who is a "large portion of the cast" that ZSS sucks against?

 

[BTmoney]

Who is a "large portion of the cast" that ZSS sucks against?

I could see it because I think her design if fairly bad but I'm sure it's the same imaginary cast that people think Marth or Fox or whoever can't deal with.

 

[trash?]

I wanna try something. Every month, I want to post this survey, and see how the general consensus over "what's good/what's not" changes over time with it.

You can take the survey here. It's as simple as I could try to make it, and I'll average it all out once there's a good amount of responses.

 

[Giygacoal]

This game is ridiculously balanced, and a tier list for the game is kinda moot for traditional use seeing that almost every character in the game can go against almost every character in the game without some ridiculous balance issues getting in the way.

On average, definitely. I'd like to see how the metagame builders and back room respond to the space animal threat.

 

[Oro?!]

On average, definitely. I'd like to see how the metagame builders and back room respond to the space animal threat.

A lot of PMBR did respond extensively in that thread.

 

[Giygacoal]

Oh, the Fox?Falco hate thread? Guess I should read a few pages back.

On the spacie note, I like Wolf. He's like Falco, but more reasonable.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I wanna try something. Every month, I want to post this survey, and see how the general consensus over "what's good/what's not" changes over time with it.

You can take the survey here. It's as simple as I could try to make it, and I'll average it all out once there's a good amount of responses.

Everyone should take this (And more people should partake in these kind of things in general)

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah, Wolf is like a space animal if they were fair characters

@Hylian: Y+C-Stick is technically better than Up+A because with Up+A you're almost always going to be going through a few charging frames on the upsmash and with C-Stick you don't.

 

[Vashimus]

Everyone should take this (And more people should partake in these kind of things in general)

I think the real selling point here is that it's straight-forward and quick to do. You only have to do it once and you're DONE, rather than the matchup thread where people were expected to do it every day, and thus lacked data. There's really no excuse not to do this one though.

 

[Hylian]

yeah, Wolf is like a space animal if they were fair characters

@Hylian: Y+C-Stick is technically better than Up+A because with Up+A you're almost always going to be going through a few charging frames on the upsmash and with C-Stick you don't.

Is it impossible to avoid charge frames when doing smashes with A? I normally use the C-stick anyways so this is a non-issue for me regardless lol.

 

[Strong Badam]

if you're proficient and pressing and releasing a button in 1/60th of a second it's probably possible......

 

[phish-it]

The smash charge doesn't start on frame 1 though.

 

[Strong Badam]

good point
2/60th of a second

 

[Aenglaan]

On average, definitely. I'd like to see how the metagame builders and back room respond to the space animal threat.

I don't think the Star Fox characters are as big of a threat as some people make them out to be. Sure, the metagames for Fox and Falco, in particular, have had lots of time to develop compared to the time of R.O.B, per say. However, Fox and Falco have many different situations to deal with now given the changes among the characters. Bowser, for example, was one of the worst characters in Melee, yet he is proving to be a pretty devastating character if played correctly.

 

[Giygacoal]

@Aenglaan Perhaps, but it'd just be too weird if Fox and Falco are ultimately still the best, even if by a slight advantage. Gotta give props to the BR for not making hasty changes to them, though. We could really compare the balance to Melee's.

Also, I looked at the Fox/Falco Hate Discussion Thread. It's not very conclusive and has surprisingly little to do with Fox and Falco.

 

[1MachGO]

Yeah, people keep exaggerating the advantage Fox/Falco have over the cast in P:M. This game is pretty balanced

I wanna try something. Every month, I want to post this survey, and see how the general consensus over "what's good/what's not" changes over time with it.

You can take the survey here. It's as simple as I could try to make it, and I'll average it all out once there's a good amount of responses.

This is a good idea, but could you go even simpler than that? I think 6 choices it too broad and will still generate outliers/breed exaggeration. 4 choices would be better (low, mid, high, top, or even more specific, Worse than C. Falcon Tier, C. Falcon Tier, Marth Tier, Fox/Falco Tier)

 

[Vashimus]

Yeah, people keep exaggerating the advantage Fox/Falco have over the cast in P:M. This game is pretty balanced

Hey, you brought the whole ****storm by making the thread. People just hate Fox and Falco more here than in the Melee threads because Melee is set in stone, while P:M is constantly changing to better the game, and people are wondering why spacies get the "Because Melee" treatment. Nothing we can do about it really except wait till P:M is finished and we can finally let things settle.

 

[BTmoney]

I wanna try something. Every month, I want to post this survey, and see how the general consensus over "what's good/what's not" changes over time with it.

You can take the survey here. It's as simple as I could try to make it, and I'll average it all out once there's a good amount of responses.

Eh I took the survey, there really should be an option to leave out characters you don't feel too strongly about.

I cannot accurately gauge how good ROB, Ivysaur, lucario etc. is
There should also be an odd number of slots (7) so 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 would be an average character instead of making us chose between 3 and 4 with 6 slots.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I think having no exact middle is a good thing since a lot of characters would be shoveled into that slot when I took the survey were it an option. Having to think seriously about if a character is "mediocre" vs "fairly sound" is a good thing.

good point
2/60th of a second

To be fair, this is also twice as much time and twice as easy as your previous notion.

 

[BTmoney]

I think having no exact middle is a good thing since a lot of characters would be shoveled into that slot when I took the survey were it an option. Having to think seriously about if a character is "mediocre" vs "fairly sound" is a good thing.



To be fair, this is also twice as much time and twice as easy as your previous notion.

I think you could argue either way but I really would appreciate a N/A option

that is if this is supposed to mean anything

 

[Tero.]

That Survey is a good idea. Please Continue it.
Oh and show us the Results.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I think you could argue either way but I really would appreciate a N/A option

that is if this is supposed to mean anything

I wasn't commenting on the N/A option, but rather, on the odd-numbered scale option.

 

[Spiffykins]

good point
2/60th of a second

Well you have to press and release the jump button in 3/60th of a second for some characters, so...

 

[1MachGO]

Hey, you brought the whole ****storm by making the thread. People just hate Fox and Falco more here than in the Melee threads because Melee is set in stone, while P:M is constantly changing to better the game, and people are wondering why spacies get the "Because Melee" treatment. Nothing we can do about it really except wait till P:M is finished and we can finally let things settle.

Your hostility towards me is warranted why, exactly?

I certainly agree that its the possibility of change which leads to discussion about spacies, but the people who are complaining about them seem to be complaining about Melee Fox and Falco... not P:M Fox and Falco. Sure, their frame data is identical but their opponents are not and this is where the exaggeration lies. People need to understand that this has pseudo-nerfed their relative dominance and as long as the gap keeps getting smaller there will never be a need to nerf Fox and Falco.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Fox and Falco's frame datas are not identical to Melee, at least regarding physics.

 

[trash?]

Alright, let's try some early results. This comes from 33 responses so far, as of 3PM EST (when I started doing all the fancy averaging/breaking google doc's legs trying to get proper sorting to work)

1. Fox 5.93939393939394
2. Falco 5.84848484848485
3. Shiek 5.48484848484848
4. Sonic 5.33333333333333
5. Peach 5.18181818181818
6. Marth 4.84848484848485
7. Wolf 4.78787878787879
8. Mario 4.78787878787879
9. Pit 4.63636363636364
10. Wario 4.42424242424242
11. Diddy Kong 4.39393939393939
12. Bowser 4.27272727272727
13. Donkey Kong 4.03030303030303
14. Jigglypuff 3.96969696969697
15. Snake 3.93939393939394
16. Captain Falcon 3.93939393939394
17. Charizard 3.87878787878788
18. Lucario 3.87878787878788
19. Ike 3.84848484848485
20. Link 3.81818181818182
21. Ganondorf 3.54545454545455
22. Lucas 3.45454545454545
23. Zelda 3.42424242424242
24. Toon Link 3.33333333333333
25. Zero Suit Samus 3.24242424242424
26. ROB 3.21212121212121
27. Pikachu 2.90909090909091
28. Ivysaur 2.84848484848485
29. Luigi 2.6969696969697
30. Ness 2.66666666666667
31. Mr. Game & Watch 2.51515151515152
32. King Dedede 2.36363636363636
33. Squirtle 2.18181818181818

(results are averaged out from the survey scale of 1 to 6, with 6 being "top tier")

Bit surprised at how low DDD is. Oh well, that's day 1 results for you.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I'm surprised at wario, what the hell is he doing way up there lol.

 

[Kink-Link5]

That list isn't actually all that bad. I'm sure everyone has their points of disagreement, but every character is at least within a range of 5 of what I see them as.

 

[Strong Badam]

he won apex bro
best character

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Alright, let's try some early results. This comes from 33 responses so far, as of 3PM EST (when I started doing all the fancy averaging/breaking google doc's legs trying to get proper sorting to work)

Fox 5.93939393939394
Falco 5.84848484848485
Shiek 5.48484848484848
Sonic 5.33333333333333
Peach 5.18181818181818
Marth 4.84848484848485
Wolf 4.78787878787879
Mario 4.78787878787879
Pit 4.63636363636364
Wario 4.42424242424242
Diddy Kong 4.39393939393939
Bowser 4.27272727272727
Donkey Kong 4.03030303030303
Jigglypuff 3.96969696969697
Snake 3.93939393939394
Captain Falcon 3.93939393939394
Charizard 3.87878787878788
Lucario 3.87878787878788
Ike 3.84848484848485
Link 3.81818181818182
Ganondorf 3.54545454545455
Lucas 3.45454545454545
Zelda 3.42424242424242
Toon Link 3.33333333333333
Zero Suit Samus 3.24242424242424
ROB 3.21212121212121
Pikachu 2.90909090909091
Ivysaur 2.84848484848485
Luigi 2.6969696969697
Ness 2.66666666666667
Mr. Game & Watch 2.51515151515152
King Dedede 2.36363636363636
Squirtle 2.18181818181818
(results are averaged out from the survey scale of 1 to 6, with 6 being "top tier")

Bit surprised at how low DDD is. Oh well, that's day 1 results for you.

I agree with everything up till ZSS, by that I mean I think everyone on the list below ZSS is a good deal above her, except maybe squirtle

 

[Scythe]

zss is underrated in that list

 

[Juushichi]

Wario is good. It's not just Reflex.

 

[Spiffykins]

Wario is good. It's not just Reflex.

Obviously not, Reflex isn't even good.

 

[Oro?!]

zss is underrated in that list

No way man. Low tier garbage. Ike is 1000X better.

 

[Bryonato]

Oro with a touch of salt