Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
This is what my list does and then I get flack for putting DK in Doc tier instead of Marth tier lol.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
B.W.
Smash Champion
I currently believe he's somewhere in mid-tier relatively close to LinkIt's better than decent, it's really good.
Edit - Where do people think Toon Link is on the tier list (hear come the essays)
BryE
Smash Journeyman
Mid-Tier sounds solid for Link. Same goes for Toon Link, if he's around that area.
I'm curious where ZSS would be though. I haven't been doing too much with ZSS but I do know that she has some potential.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Yeah I see Link and TL being about average characters. TL is more MU dependent than link imo
It would be way better to have an actual matchup chart than just sticking them in an arbitrary list. In all honesty this game is way to balanced to have a real tier list. Plus a much better idea of what a tier list would actually look like could easily come from that via point system per matchup.
leelue
Smash Lord
Way too balanced
Fox
Game and Watch
Same game
Fox
Game and Watch
Same game
Vashimus
Smash Master
Uh, we already tried that with the matchup poll. Guess how that went over?
With some characters being more viable than others.
Spiffykins
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2012
- Messages
- 547
-Space Animal Farm by George Orwell
iode
Smash Cadet
I think Pikachu could be top 3 in tier list, maybe even sitting on his own in S tier if anyone completely and utterly masters his QAC in terms of both attacking, retreating, and positioning. I feel like mastering QAC for pika could be harder than mastering fox's shine game, but my oh my the rewards for doing so is pretty theoretically stunning.
Vashimus
Smash Master
Remember, a lot of us thought Squirtle was going to be godlike for very similar reasons.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
I forget, but this has to be your account Bamsey. Your speculation is outrageous. His P:M QAC I think is also worse than his Brawl QAC: from the modifications where he has to do an aerial at the end or whatever and can't just cancel into anything like an Up-smash/Grab where that'd be super useful but he has to go with Up-air or whatever for the ending aerial or whichever has the less lag or something THEN do the Up-smash/grab.
Pikachu QAC has potential for running away imo. The dilemma with using it to approach is that he doesn't have a great hitbox while using the move, and you're limited in ways to beat shielding/walls. Frankly, you would be trying to throw the person off instead of gaining a viable new tool. It's much more of a trick than a new grab/high priority attack/actual mixup.
For running away however, since it's a mobility tool basically and you don't have to worry that much about the other person's hitboxes if they can't reach you, I could see him being annoying to catch or corner. I'm not impressed with the possible applications as far as offense goes, and I think you'll be hard pressed to find legit scenarios where it works better than a traditional approach. Pikachu doing a running SH, or staying on the ground with the possibility of transitioning to SH, is a lot better.
The basic way I see it, is that if the other character has a solid wall or Sex Kick, you aren't going to beat that anytime soon with a QAC approach, and they could do it in response to seeing you QA/QAC with little regard. If you approached with it, you got swatted. If not, you lose space potentially. The second drawback not being a big issue (usually) if you're running away with it though. As far as Pika viability goes, he needs more damn range. He has some of the makings of greatness, besides that one huge flaw. I can't put him in god tier based off unforseen or hyped QAC applications.
For running away however, since it's a mobility tool basically and you don't have to worry that much about the other person's hitboxes if they can't reach you, I could see him being annoying to catch or corner. I'm not impressed with the possible applications as far as offense goes, and I think you'll be hard pressed to find legit scenarios where it works better than a traditional approach. Pikachu doing a running SH, or staying on the ground with the possibility of transitioning to SH, is a lot better.
The basic way I see it, is that if the other character has a solid wall or Sex Kick, you aren't going to beat that anytime soon with a QAC approach, and they could do it in response to seeing you QA/QAC with little regard. If you approached with it, you got swatted. If not, you lose space potentially. The second drawback not being a big issue (usually) if you're running away with it though. As far as Pika viability goes, he needs more damn range. He has some of the makings of greatness, besides that one huge flaw. I can't put him in god tier based off unforseen or hyped QAC applications.
QAC being your first jump instead of a double jump would make it super good.
It's super limited as is aside from getting around the stage quickly.
It's super limited as is aside from getting around the stage quickly.
Spiffykins
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2012
- Messages
- 547
The only thing different about it as far as I can tell is the ability to wavedash out of it. To be perfectly honest, it's probably still better in Brawl because of lock infinites.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
http://projectm.dantarion.com/characters.php?character=pikachu
They didn't mention much like they should have, like you SHOULD be able to JC Grab/Up-smash but they made it not possible or something
They didn't mention much like they should have, like you SHOULD be able to JC Grab/Up-smash but they made it not possible or something
I don't think that would be possible regardless, because I'm pretty sure QAC makes you use Double Jump, not a grounded jump. I remember that being the case in Brawl (I think). In Brawl, lot of characters (maybe all?) had a DJ glitch because of janky Brawl landing detection where you could DJ after doing a move close to the ground (. Pretty sure QAC works based off that, and would explain why you can't JC Grab since you're still in the air technically.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
QAC uses double jump, not your grounded jump
metroid1117
Smash Master
I'm not sure whether QAC works like this, but what you're referring to is formally called Second Jump Renewal (SJR). It seems like it can be done by all characters as long as you time the aerial on the right frame.
On-topic: Where do people think Ike is now? Has anyone fought any Ikes in tournament that use throws to combo into DACUS?
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
In builds prior to v2, you could grab and Up-smash out of QAC. Findings taken from my playing of a set-up Monk&ST had at a WI tourney =)
But yeah now you can't do either of those when you once could for still unanswered reasons, which would have really caused top tier havoc (and possibly be stupid, since QAC Grab/Up-smash would be be better than a lot of other options).
But yeah now you can't do either of those when you once could for still unanswered reasons, which would have really caused top tier havoc (and possibly be stupid, since QAC Grab/Up-smash would be be better than a lot of other options).
@Metroid: Yeah that. I'm pretty sure QAC functions as that or similar to that, since a few characters can do that with special moves. Either way, Pika should be airborne with a second jump instead of doing a grounded one, so no JG Grab or Usmash. If you were able to do that before, then it sounds like it wasn't working as intended.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I'm still sticking with my opinion that Pikachu is kinda mediocre. He could pass as somewhat usable in Melee, but that's just not good enough anymore. He received very few significant changes; he's basically Melee Pikachu with 64 b-air and QAC. I think QAC was supposed to be his shiny new toy, the thing that breathed new life into him and allowed him to keep up with the rest of the cast, but the results have been underwhelming as far as I can tell. As DMG said, it can be useful for running away, but that wasn't exactly his problem area. Unless somebody starts showing off all these apparently amazing possibilities with QAC, he's never going to be a top contender. He needs improvements. Maybe we could start off with making his Dash attack not completely terrible
I just saw that thread. I have to seriously apologize for the outcome of that whole thing. It has nothing to do with me lol. Seeing that whole OP brought figurative tears to my eyes.
D
Deleted member
Guest
you guys are aware that he can transfer almost all of the old melee technical skills to QAC right? like don't get me wrong, i think pikachu is kinda mediocre too, but he's far from boring. and frankly, most of the cast should be "mediocre".
geno
Smash Apprentice
"And when everyone's super... *evil chuckle* no one will be" - Syndrome
CyberZixx
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2012
- Messages
- 1,189
I think someone posted a video of that earlier in the thread.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
QAC does not need the involvement of Double Jump whatsoever. It makes it easier/more lenient, but it's just a consequence of what QAC does.
I just want Pichu Up-B angles and side-B to sweetspot the ledge.I'm still sticking with my opinion that Pikachu is kinda mediocre. He could pass as somewhat usable in Melee, but that's just not good enough anymore. He received very few significant changes; he's basically Melee Pikachu with 64 b-air and QAC. I think QAC was supposed to be his shiny new toy, the thing that breathed new life into him and allowed him to keep up with the rest of the cast, but the results have been underwhelming as far as I can tell. As DMG said, it can be useful for running away, but that wasn't exactly his problem area. Unless somebody starts showing off all these apparently amazing possibilities with QAC, he's never going to be a top contender. He needs improvements. Maybe we could start off with making his Dash attack not completely terrible
Vashimus
Smash Master
I agree with Kink that Pikachu should've gotten some of Pichu's good traits instead of leaving him alone, like Mario got some of Doc's.
D
Deleted member
Guest
pikachu got all of pichu's good traits, all zero of them.
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
Wall jump?
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Invincibility on D-smash, miniscule tail hurtbox, Up-B free angles, 2-frame landing lag, a grab range that is slightly more than laughable?
D
Deleted member
Guest
yep, all zero of them.
Your method is how Kismet does it.
I just do the same thing as when I normally DACUS. C-Stick Down, Attack+Up.
I just do the same thing as when I normally DACUS. C-Stick Down, Attack+Up.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
"1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Sheik
4. Marth
5. Peach"
This must be because people understand how to play these characters already, I'm highly suspect to believe that they are still easily just the best characters, some characters are way too good now. I honestly don't think the fox is top tier anymore, if anything falco should be above him simply for the laser game.
2. Falco
3. Sheik
4. Marth
5. Peach"
This must be because people understand how to play these characters already, I'm highly suspect to believe that they are still easily just the best characters, some characters are way too good now. I honestly don't think the fox is top tier anymore, if anything falco should be above him simply for the laser game.
Dantarion
Smash Champion
I don't think spacies are top tier anymore.
The logic behind "well, the potential of the new characters just needs to be cracked open" works just as well for the argument that they beat (or compete with, in some cases) space animals. Once their metagames start to normalize, space animals will be able to adequately and reliably play around them.
It's also worth noting that many space animal users don't really take this game seriously (see: M2K's whining about potential space animal changes). Also, many people who play PM (and this goes for the whole cast) go with previous experience of their characters and therefore don't play them at what will eventually be considered optimal.
Also-also, people talk about the years spent perfecting different characters' options, but that was for a game that didn't have people trying to break it in half from the start. It's very likely that the metagame will figure itself out fairly quickly.
It's also worth noting that many space animal users don't really take this game seriously (see: M2K's whining about potential space animal changes). Also, many people who play PM (and this goes for the whole cast) go with previous experience of their characters and therefore don't play them at what will eventually be considered optimal.
Also-also, people talk about the years spent perfecting different characters' options, but that was for a game that didn't have people trying to break it in half from the start. It's very likely that the metagame will figure itself out fairly quickly.
geno
Smash Apprentice
Really? maybe not like top, top tier, but i think they're still up there. might just be because of all the experience though. I feel like Bowser's pretty close to the top now, and his game is still young. As it goes on, bowser is gonna own.