Tier List Speculation

[Hinichii.ez.™]

There should only be one stage ban allowed anyway. :/

U high
No posting while high

 

[DMG]

Skyworld is whatever, I'm a bit surprised more people don't try running around with Jiggs or someone for timeouts

Edit: 2 bans with 10 stages might be a bit much. I'd probably just use 1 for that amount IF the stages chosen are fairly plain or not obviously stacked one direction in features (1 tiny stages but 3-4 large stages, or 3 tiny stages and only Dreamland legal)

 

[Ripple]

and DMG inadvertently figures out why DDD is super broken on skyworld

 

[DMG]

Ripple PLZ all I used to do in Brawl was think of ways to time people out with Wario, I SEE YOU LOOKIN MAD CUTE WITH D3!

(My initial guess started with Planking, but with the changes to the edge that doesn't make sense anymore so that leaves camping/running/"Spacing"

 

[Ripple]

the thing wit DDD is that its not running at all, its taking the top platform and jumping over and over

 

[Soft Serve]

Top platform camping definetly makes a lot of the cast cry.

 

[Strong Badam]

the thing wit DDD is that its not running at all, its taking the top platform and jumping over and over

*Wario Corkscrew*

 

[Ripple]

no top platform on PS2, SB



also, that move is really dumb

 

[DMG]

I agree, Drifloon is secret boss best E-mote on Smashboards

 

[Strong Badam]

DRifloons are a legend.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Wait, you don't like Santa Roy? "Hoh, hoh, hoh, hoh".

To me, it sound more like "Hop, hop, hop" which I find hilarious, as it sounds like he's announcing his moves.

 

[SpiderMad]

the thing wit DDD is that its not running at all, its taking the top platform and jumping over and over

Like this or something? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiQp5w-9IAE#t=564

 

[Cpt.]

That feel when no one else likes or sprite. If Ivysaur's select picture was one of these, he would clearly still be god tier.

 

[DMG]

No expert on 64, but uh why would they not use an IRL/outside the game timer for stuff like this? Seems like a solution anyone with a $5 Timex, or any cell phone ever, could have solved

 

[Ripple]

Like this or something? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiQp5w-9IAE#t=564

its exactly like this, but now imagine kirby is a super heavy weight AND can throw a projectile down at you from up there.

this is how I beat hbox at TBH4. our first game had like 8 seconds left when I killed him for the 3 stock

 

[Frost | Odds]

No expert on 64, but uh why would they not use an IRL/outside the game timer for stuff like this? Seems like a solution anyone with a $5 Timex, or any cell phone ever, could have solved

The technology just doesn't exist yet

 

[mimgrim]

How many stage bans you get should probably correlate in some way to how many stages are available (and also set length considerations). 1 stage ban is inadequate for 18 stages if we were to use an example

1 stage ban is still fine for 18 stages. Or 20. Or 30. or 100.

U high
No posting while high

I've never been high in my life. And I have every intention to keep it that way.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I've never been high in my life. And I have every intention to keep it that way.

Somewhere magical

Checks out

 

[DMG]

1 stage ban is still fine for 18 stages. Or 20. Or 30. or 100.

Might be "fine", but not as good as giving more stage bans if you go higher up in stage count. I'd rather seek for improvement than settle like that.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Rather than more bans for more stages we should just get back to a minmal stahe list. Reducing stage list has the benefit of simplifying banning and reducing the time it takes to ban/strike/select. Melee players have it good, their meta is developed with so few relevant matchups and so few stages banning generally takes like 10 secs. And they don't even have to do it for 3/5. Honestly wish we could get to that point a little quicker, ofc everyone is developing and learning their characters matchup as well as they can so they can compete, but keeping 11+ stages certainly isn't helping the process and might inhibit that from even happening in PM's lifetime due to the sheer number of relevant matchups and ban combinations.

 

[Ripple]

simple, you don't get bans in a 3/5

 

[DrinkingFood]

For 11+ stages? Even for ten it's kinda absurd

 

[mimgrim]

Might be "fine", but not as good as giving more stage bans if you go higher up in stage count. I'd rather seek for improvement than settle like that.

1 stage ban is an improvement over multiple bans no matter the stage count, at least imo.

Besides. Many of the stages in PM are just so similar making a high stage count redundant. 7-13 stages flat legal, not stupid starter or c/p list, with 1 ban would be sooooooo much better. But not. People are stubborn to keep to tradition no matter how bad it is.

 

[Ripple]

For 11+ stages? Even for ten it's kinda absurd

FD is the only match that drastically changes a MU ratio. and people already play on that in melee.

what's the problem with PM doing it?

unless you think there are more than 1 other stage for some characters that drastically skew MUs

 

[DMG]

Well that's probably true. Bowser and Marth would love for stage lists to be stacked with Yoshi's + WW without enough bans to cover both

I don't mind using stages, and don't care much about similar designs, since you can usually find facets or features that are interesting enough or matter enough. If there were 2 battlefield clones, but 1 had huge vertical zones with small sides, and the other instead had large horizontal with small ceiling, I would put both on the stage list despite having a 100% on-stage copy

 

[mimgrim]

FD is the only match that drastically changes a MU ratio. and people already play on that in melee.

what's the problem with PM doing it?

unless you think there are more than 1 other stage for some characters that drastically skew MUs

I dunno. Bigger stages like Dreamland/Skyworld and smaller stages with small blast zones like Yoshi's Story/Warioware can skew some MUs pretty hard to honestly.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Yes
Lets ban 1 stage
So then the next guy can cp a stage just like the one you banned
So smart

 

[mimgrim]

Yes
Lets ban 1 stage
So then the next guy can cp a stage just like the one you banned
So smart

Being able to ban every good stage the opponent has beats the purpose of CPing.

 

[steelguttey]

FD is the only match that drastically changes a MU ratio. and people already play on that in melee.

what's the problem with PM doing it?

unless you think there are more than 1 other stage for some characters that drastically skew MUs

final destination does ruin matchups but it isnt the only one.

smashville is the same ****ing thing that platform is pointless most of the time against characters like marth that can just outspace you and want you on the platform

also, blast zones are another huge thing that should be considered.

 

[Bazkip]

final destination does ruin matchups but it isnt the only one.

smashville is the same ****ing thing that platform is pointless most of the time against characters like marth that can just outspace you and want you on the platform

also, blast zones are another huge thing that should be considered.

Kinda the same with GHZ except that it's smaller.
I'd like for both to have platforms that are more present. I don't really expect Smashville to be changed, but GHZ is definitely a possibility.

 

[Rᴏb]

Yes
Lets ban 1 stage
So then the next guy can cp a stage just like the one you banned
So smart

what is this post

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Reduce the stagelist all you want, if you cut GHZ I cut you.

... Also reduce the stagelist and lower bans. Stages are honestly very important when it comes to cast balance and every character should always have a stage that they'd want to go to available ... Banning should be about leaving the option that you're most comfortable with open while not necessary taking away all the opponent's good options.

Does Fox even have a bad stage?

And don't say FD, that kind of counts v/s three whole characters.

 

[Soft Serve]

Reduce the stagelist all you want, if you cut GHZ I cut you.

... Also reduce the stagelist and lower bans. Stages are honestly very important when it comes to cast balance and every character should always have a stage that they'd want to go to available ... Banning should be about leaving the option that you're most comfortable with open while not necessary taking away all the opponent's good options.

Does Fox even have a bad stage?

And don't say FD, that kind of counts v/s three whole characters.

Not really. You could argue that skyworld is bad for him, and dreamland in certain match ups where he can't get quick shine gimps. New Norfair is meh for him too, but not particularly bad. It's all match up specific, like don't let DDD go to skywolrd or dreamland, don't let fire emblem take you to fd/ghz/norfair, etc.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

Fox doesn't have stages that are particularly bad for him because he's an all-around good character. Fox doesn't really fit into any of Smash's character archetypes that generally have good and bad stages, and he also lacks major flaws that can be exploited in certain stages such as having a bad recovery, being lightweight, or not having a good projectile. On the other hand, Fox does have stages that are very strong for him, such as those with low ceilings. You can't really design a stage that's generally bad in many of Fox's matchups unless you change Fox.

Also, I think that banning should be about the ratio of stages available. Banning does what it's supposed to when a player can ban somewhere around 15% of stages. That way, a player can ban the stages that might significantly favor the opponent, but the opponent is still able to pick a stage that they have a slight advantage in the matchup. Each match should be exciting and a test of skill between the players, and not be heavily in favor of one character because of the stage. In PM, a lot of stages affect certain character archetypes similarly, so having only 1 ban with like 10 stages makes counterpicking pointless. That's why I think 2 bans is ideal for a stagelist with 10-ish stages.

 

[Rizner]

Fox doesn't have stages that are particularly bad for him because he's an all-around good character. Fox doesn't really fit into any of Smash's character archetypes that generally have good and bad stages, and he also lacks major flaws that can be exploited in certain stages such as having a bad recovery, being lightweight, or not having a good projectile. On the other hand, Fox does have stages that are very strong for him, such as those with low ceilings. You can't really design a stage that's generally bad in many of Fox's matchups unless you change Fox.

Also, I think that banning should be about the ratio of stages available. Banning does what it's supposed to when a player can ban somewhere around 15% of stages. That way, a player can ban the stages that might significantly favor the opponent, but the opponent is still able to pick a stage that they have a slight advantage in the matchup. Each match should be exciting and a test of skill between the players, and not be heavily in favor of one character because of the stage. In PM, a lot of stages affect certain character archetypes similarly, so having only 1 ban with like 10 stages makes counterpicking pointless. That's why I think 2 bans is ideal for a stagelist with 10-ish stages.

That depends on the stages. Percents and ratios don't really work. If you have ten stages, but the only small ones are wware and yoshis, characters who like small stages get wrecked by two stage bans while the rest are fine with it.
People have to start planning real stage lists and ban counts outside of bottom two row shenanigans, where all stage types are represented in a fair way.
But that gets hard to do with the current stages and traditions

 

[Ariyo]

On Sonic. Sonic is the type of character that will always have disgusting design as long as they try to keep him true to his games. To give him actual good design he would need a complete rehaul and normalization done to him without giving consideration to his games. Otherwise he will continues to be a disgusting character.

I agree. I was prepped for another Sonic overhaul in 3.5. The PMDT didn't really deliver. Now he's just less fun to play and no one still likes fighting him. I'm awaiting the day when down B gets scrapped and turned into something cool. Maybe an iteration of his side B in brawl minus or something, just less broken. All of his other special moves are okay for the most part imo.

 

[Juushichi]

I still don't know why I went to Dreamland vs Ripple at UFGTX. : (

I think DDD is pretty good on those stages.

Ironically enough, our Puff bans DL vs Wario. Also Corkscrew is ****ing ********. I'm tired of getting hit by the weak hit and getting semi-meteored. @ Strong Badam pls stop buffing ur character <3

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

That depends on the stages. Percents and ratios don't really work. If you have ten stages, but the only small ones are wware and yoshis, characters who like small stages get wrecked by two stage bans while the rest are fine with it.
People have to start planning real stage lists and ban counts outside of bottom two row shenanigans, where all stage types are represented in a fair way.
But that gets hard to do with the current stages and traditions

Well, yes. If the stagelist is poorly balanced, then banning will be unfair regardless of how many bans there are.

 

[Frost | Odds]

FD is the only match that drastically changes a MU ratio.

False. WW/YS/FoD(Mostly WW) made Bowser borderline playable even in 3.0.

 

[mimgrim]

I agree. I was prepped for another Sonic overhaul in 3.5. The PMDT didn't really deliver. Now he's just less fun to play and no one still likes fighting him. I'm awaiting the day when down B gets scrapped and turned into something cool. Maybe an iteration of his side B in brawl minus or something, just less broken. All of his other special moves are okay for the most part imo.

Actually, I think 3.5 Sonic is tons more fun then 3.02. The 3.5 has a tighter engine and it make him feel more controllable, at least to me as in 3.02 I just felt so out of control with him, and I like that now I don't feel bad for not using his specials. I'm really debating about subbing him as a result due to him being a rather easy character to use still and being rather fun and the fact that people hate him in Smash, makes him all the more fun. But I need to find a main first.