victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
Squirtle is one of the few characters that can give Mewtwo a ROUGH time too. MEWTWO. The character that everyone screams "#1 UNBEATABLE BROKEN MK OF PM".
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
PlateProp
Smash Master
I still think it's hilarious how everyone thinks Squirtle is garbage and only has a spammable side b
Keep on sleeping guys
CyberZixx
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2012
- Messages
- 1,189
What do you think of Marth vs Metaknight and Marth vs Lucas?
Circle_Breaker
Smash Journeyman
squirtle is annoying ****ing bs. it's like zelda where I know I just have to learn the matchup moar but the character has so god damn many weird options, it doesn't feel like I'm playing the same game any more and the new game isn't any fun cause even winning feels like I just sloppily out-cheesed the opponent. So I'm just going to be stubborn/irrational and say **** those characters.
PandaPanda Senketsu
Smash Journeyman
Against Squirtle I just run away and throw **** until he's at 50%, then I just hold down and mash the A button whenever he gets close.
My life changed the day I learned squirtle's side B doesn't work past 50%.
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Circle_Breaker
Smash Journeyman
this **** right here. you can tell me sideB spam is a dumb way to play squirtle all day and even if that's true, the move is still integral to his play. give me shine any day.
...sorry, squirt and zelda are the two characters that knock the lid off my saltshaker.
edit: oh oh I also hate Pit, thank the five gods he can't tauntcancel THE FIGHT IS ON, YOURE NOT READY YET jesus I hate that kid.
/salt
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Une
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2014
- Messages
- 98
eh whatever the case random characters do not deserve to be good. Luigi. Dedede, G&W, etc.
InfinityCollision
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
- Messages
- 1,245
Characters don't deserve to be good? Please, explain. Reading it will be a hilarious start to my morning tomorrow.
Circle_Breaker
Smash Journeyman
He's right though, they all deserve to be as terrible as Peach was in Melee 
But seriously, random is fine, very entertaining when skillfully abused, people always find cool ways to reduce the randomness. Peach tossing four turnips or more between kills and getting a stitchface is always hype IMO, and same goes for Luigi backfire shenanigans. Diddy's barrels are the only thing that bug me because they're so brain-dead and occur while he is basically being punished, like a random get-out-of-jail-free requiring no skill inputs. Barrels should have a 1-2 frame input window to activate while he is being hit if they exist at all, I think.
edit: I also like G&W's number tricks, too bad about bacon though.
But seriously, random is fine, very entertaining when skillfully abused, people always find cool ways to reduce the randomness. Peach tossing four turnips or more between kills and getting a stitchface is always hype IMO, and same goes for Luigi backfire shenanigans. Diddy's barrels are the only thing that bug me because they're so brain-dead and occur while he is basically being punished, like a random get-out-of-jail-free requiring no skill inputs. Barrels should have a 1-2 frame input window to activate while he is being hit if they exist at all, I think.
edit: I also like G&W's number tricks, too bad about bacon though.
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steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
oh m ygod please dont get me started on rng
everyone in the olimar skype chat knows my pain with that f ucking bull****
everyone in the olimar skype chat knows my pain with that f ucking bull****
Circle_Breaker
Smash Journeyman
Would probably be pretty nice for Olimar to pull 4 purps every time, right Olimar mains and nobody else?
Seriously though maybe if pikmin pull had a charge period and purples took the longest to get it'd be pretty cool. They could make it take longer based on the order you get them in the game and it'd be pretty balanced and neat I think?
Seriously though maybe if pikmin pull had a charge period and purples took the longest to get it'd be pretty cool. They could make it take longer based on the order you get them in the game and it'd be pretty balanced and neat I think?
steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
yea but what happens then is that every single stock=purple or every single time they are doing something=purple which is bad
you would have to limit the amount of purples you can have which is bad
we all hate rng but the way that we remove rng is a hot topic in the olimar char discussion
you would have to limit the amount of purples you can have which is bad
we all hate rng but the way that we remove rng is a hot topic in the olimar char discussion
I can save you the trouble of that. Marth loses to MK, and probably loses to Lucas. I used to think Marth won vs MK, but that was clearly the minority opinion and basically due to lack of MU knowledge for the MK players I vs'd. Lucas vs Marth doesn't have any top level matches iirc to go off of, but the general rule is that if you can't appropriately corner a character as Marth, ur in boned city. Lucas fits the bill and I would not be surprised if he won the MU.
Edit: I played SS, K9's little brother at LTC. Olimar can do some sheeeit. I knew about most of it (Oli's stuff), but he had that down pat. Don't sleep on the little captain dude bro!
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Jellyfish4102
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2013
- Messages
- 338
- NNID
- jellyfish
From my experience and matches I've seen. The Marth and Lucas matchup is in Marth's favor. Lucas wants to get on your sheild to start his insane sheild pressure. Marth can keep Lucas out of that range. I like to think of it as a Marth vs spacie match up where the spacie can't shoot lasers to force Marth to sheild (Marth can easily swat PK Freeze away with his sword). This gives Marth a lot of control over space which really hurts Lucas's limited range.
That's possible I guess. I don't play Oracle a lot or anything, but maybe we'll do a ton of matches and see how it feels. My brain tells me hopeful things for Marth in many MU's, and my gut tells me "Holy **** dude you gotta play better than like half of the other characters who are way batter, and not die at like 70% to powerful hits". One of the weirdest experiences for a Smash character: everyone else I play it's super obvious who wins or not. Marth gives you (false) hope
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Circle_Breaker
Smash Journeyman
just make it take a long ass time so that even a star KO is like 3 purps at best. who cares if you can apply pressure by charging for a purple when your opponent tries to camp you, that's what every character with a charge projectile does and its awesome, not "bad".
or, deal with RNG creatively by constantly dumping ****ty pikmin and fishing for purps and you're doing basically the same thing.
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CyberZixx
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2012
- Messages
- 1,189
I feel the same way about playing Marth. I find it real hard to judge his matchups as it feels I can win any one but often the requires very precise play, much more than the opponent. I feel his match ups spread and the character overall is not as good as many people and that could be a reason. Marth is a character where playing really helps understand his issues.
shairn
Your favorite anime is bad.
I feel like MK/Marth is even. Marth outranges MK and combos him much harder than MK combos him. If you mixup throws well getting a tipper fsmash consistently off MK at kill percents isn't very hard. However MK can't reasonably be edge guarded, while on the other hand he edge guards Marth really hard, so it's really a matter of position in the matchup.
PlateProp
Smash Master
Withdraw =/= intergral to Squirtle play. If anytging, it's just a combo extender/tech chase.
Hydroplaning on the other hand is. You can do anything ouy of a hydroplane.
Paradoxium
Smash Master
Disagree, mk just straight up outclasses Marth. Better grab game, faster, with just as much range. Marth has always had problems with characters that go in and Metaknight is one of the best at it. Anytime Marth whiffs an attack he will get punished super hard, and if he doesn't throw any attacks out he is still losing in the neutral. Meta knight has a much better punish game than Marth. His upair will literally carry Marth to the top of the stage where mk can just up B for the kill. He also has an insane tech chase game combined with his superior edge guarding capabilities. As long as the mk player Di's properly he shouldn't be getting hit by a tipper off a throw. From experience, Metaknight destroys Marth.
I disagree with this one too, although I think this much is much more even than mk vs Marth.
A problem I see a lot is people saying Marths range keeps characters out, which is what makes him win the match up. But his range comes at the cost of laggy moves.
For example, Pikachu has a tiny range while Marth has a ton of range, but pikachu still wins that match up, and Pikachu can't even use his projectile in the neutral. Even though Marth has a lot of range his moves are slow and laggy, and he doesn't have any decent oos options. Lucas, Mk, and Pikachu are all fast enough to punish Marth's laggy moves, and they also win in the neutral and can apply shield pressure that is tough for Marth to deal with. Not to mention they all have strong crouch cancel games.
Marth can swat away pk freeze, so what? You just threw out a laggy attack to stop a projectile that land cancels against a character with insane punishes and pressure. If you ask me, wd oos is much better option for dealing with pk freeze.
I think Marth's range is way too overrated, there are ways to get around it.
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sneakytako
Smash Lord
Marth MK is probably in MK's favor, but it isn't as overwhelming as people are making it out to be.
MK has the great pressure game similar to shiek, which works in his favor in this MU. However, he's a fast faller which leaves him susceptible to marth's great combo game, which works similarly to spacies. But unlike spacies, it's much more difficult to gimp mk, he can recover from even dair setups. So the MU ends up like being against a shiek that can recover but you can combo for marth.
BTW, the MK up air chain to up-b is not real. It only works on people who don't DI/get lazy.
MK has the great pressure game similar to shiek, which works in his favor in this MU. However, he's a fast faller which leaves him susceptible to marth's great combo game, which works similarly to spacies. But unlike spacies, it's much more difficult to gimp mk, he can recover from even dair setups. So the MU ends up like being against a shiek that can recover but you can combo for marth.
BTW, the MK up air chain to up-b is not real. It only works on people who don't DI/get lazy.
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Jacob29
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2013
- Messages
- 530
MK's sword is longer than Marth's.
still kind of integral, just not that integral to the neutral game, I wouldn't like losing the move personally.
Oh and Squirtle:M2 is pretty even in my opinion.
Doesn't reach out as far though so Marth has a bit more range in practice.
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sneakytako
Smash Lord
Lawl Marth definitely out ranges MK, I got no idea about sword length. The key point is ftilt and dtilt, marth outranges both of those.
The only move that might out range marth is MK's Fsmash, it reaches pretty damn far.
The only move that might out range marth is MK's Fsmash, it reaches pretty damn far.
TheDuckChris
Smash Cadet
Marth has a lot of dope new tech options from brawl that top marths havent really started abusing yet. Will.be interesting to see how matchups ike lucas and mk change when that does happen
victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
Not necessarily. MK and Marth outrange each other at their best attack angles. Either way their swords are pretty big . The difference is that one character is much faster, has a better grab game, better recovery, juggles, and can reliably go in without much worry. That being said, Marth can combo MK very easily. Up throw up tilt is guaranteed at 0 and from there you can spam more up tilts and then up airs. MK has a more difficult time comboing Marth, but his grab game does the work on Marth. In the end, MK wins neutral because he has more options and he has enough tools to keep Marth at a constant disadvantage.
Woop 1000th post.
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sneakytako
Smash Lord
What angle could MK possibly hit marth without getting hit? Marth uptilt will beat any dair nair as long as it's not whiffed, underneath marth dair can beat MK upair, if he can get it out in time. Marth Ftilt can out space any kind of MK bair.
MK's advantage on marth isn't range. It's the fact that he doesn't have to commit to any of his pokes.
MK's advantage on marth isn't range. It's the fact that he doesn't have to commit to any of his pokes.
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victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
Dtilt Marth's up tilt. You're not supposed to try and beat an anti air move with and aerial, but fair could probably do it anyway.
Last hit of fair slightly above Marth beats Marth's up air/fair
Lol MK's up air is probably the best juggling move in the game its beating Marth's dair. Transcendent remember?
in the air, unless you're trying to stop a projectile, everything's basically transcendent, due to no aerial clanking.
i agree about mk uair beating marth dair, though. marth's dair might have more effective range, but it's hella slow, so all you need is one correct read, then you can just uair and hold him there with uairs for a while.
i agree about mk uair beating marth dair, though. marth's dair might have more effective range, but it's hella slow, so all you need is one correct read, then you can just uair and hold him there with uairs for a while.
sneakytako
Smash Lord
I mean, marth's dtilt outranges MK's dtilt. I'm not saying MK can't punish marth, I'm just saying marth's moves out ranges MK.
And of course MK has the advantage when marth is above him. But if you get called out, marth's dair will beat MK's upair evey time. Unfortunately for marth MK has multiple jumps so he never has to try to upair when marth could dair lol.
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menotyou135
Smash Journeyman
@ Squirtle side b critics: Yeah it can be annoying, but it isn't as hard to deal with as sonic's ball unless the only way you know how to deal with sonic is through projectiles (in which case learn to deal with squirtle/sonic with actual attacks).
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Yes totally plausible scenario, Marth uses uptilt against grounded MK who can then beat it with dtilt, great move choice Marth.
And yeah transcendent priority makes no difference at all when it comes to aerial vs aerial.
I wouldn't be surprised if marth loses the match up but come on, give better reasons...
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jtm94
Smash Lord
I've had certain aerials clank against Meta Knight to be honest. I wouldn't be surprised if a move of Marth's clanks with MK in the air either. Not sure on the situation but Falco dair would clank and stop against MK upsmash and I would get hit.
Meta Knight is really good, solid down throw with tech chases or chain grabs galore, amazing dash dance, good run speed, extremely fast moves, a sword as long as Ike's Ragnell, fair that carries you off stage with his multiple jumps, a crazy strong bair that seems slow until you realize it is only in comparison to his other moves, and his smash attacks are all relatively fast/strong. His upsmash is like if Link's upsmash was instantaneous and all the hits happened at the same time. I also agree his uair is one of the best juggle moves in the game, you can say they are DIable, but he definitely has the mobility to react and just keep chaining them.
Meta Knight is really good, solid down throw with tech chases or chain grabs galore, amazing dash dance, good run speed, extremely fast moves, a sword as long as Ike's Ragnell, fair that carries you off stage with his multiple jumps, a crazy strong bair that seems slow until you realize it is only in comparison to his other moves, and his smash attacks are all relatively fast/strong. His upsmash is like if Link's upsmash was instantaneous and all the hits happened at the same time. I also agree his uair is one of the best juggle moves in the game, you can say they are DIable, but he definitely has the mobility to react and just keep chaining them.
BluntedMask
Smash Apprentice
Marths downtilt is slow. What.
Paradoxium
Smash Master
I think Mk just destroys Marth, it's like a harder Fox match up.
Oracle
Smash Master
Mks dash attack clanks with marths fair its unwinnable!