Tier List Speculation

[metroid1117]

KDJ I can get behind, but Dart's sort of on and off. He doesn't play on a consistent basis right? Even if Dart was more experienced than Lazarond, Lazarond's no slouch himself. Despite that, Lazarond has had a consistent losing streaking against Dart for some time now, so I thought that was strange.

Dart tends to be inactive due to real life obligations, but he consistently places in the top three at whatever tournament he enters. He can be inconsistent in terms of results for PM, but at Toasted Ravs 4, he took first in PM (beating Strong Bad in WF and GF2) and lost only to Darkatma in GF1 and GF2 for Melee after months of inactivity. Don't get me wrong, Lazarond is definitely good, but IMO Dart has more experience and better "Smash" intuition.

 

[Frost | Odds]

My DDD got bodied by a lot of texas players.

watch my DDD vs. Denti. that MU is literally 100-0

So is Bowser vs Ivy (and for pretty much the same reasons), but still nobody believes me. =/

 

[metroid1117]

My DDD got bodied by a lot of texas players.

watch my DDD vs. Denti. that MU is literally 100-0

Did you get the chance to play against other Ikes and Charizards?

 

[Paradoxium]

I think Ivy is a dumb character. She completely encourages camping and overall really defensive play.

 

[steelguttey]

and thats a bad thing?

 

[Frost | Odds]

and thats a bad thing?

Of course not. I don't have any problems with the design intent of Ivy's character- it's just that she's waaaaaaay too polarizing in the MUs where she's good. She has 100-0 matchups on D3 and Bowser, something like 75:25 vs Charizard, and a bunch more really dumb matchups. The problem is that her entire kit minimizes interaction with the other player - and is way too good at it. Her combos and edgeguard game are completely braindead, her spike comes at NEGATIVE risk for her (compare to Falcon's meteor, Roy's meteor, Wario's spike, etc), the "sweetspot" on her upb is one of the biggest hitboxes in the game and has guaranteed combos from throws on most of the cast.

Her bair is like Jiggs' bair, except it comes out in every direction, twice, at greater range with way more disjoint, and has less lag than Jiggs', and it semispikes. Not to mention that it's attached to a strictly far better character. Even if the rest of Ivy's kit (and her air mobility) wasn't as stupid as it is, that one move would still invalidate a significant chunk of the cast.

Camping and minimizing interaction are fine, if boring, playstyles. They become a problem when the character is so oppressively good at them that the opponent can't even play the game anymore.

 

[grandpappy]

something like 75:25 vs Charizard

B-but Charizard has 4x resistance!

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Of course not. I don't have any problems with the design intent of Ivy's character- it's just that she's waaaaaaay too polarizing in the MUs where she's good. She has 100-0 matchups on D3 and Bowser, something like 75:25 vs Charizard, and a bunch more really dumb matchups. The problem is that her entire kit minimizes interaction with the other player - and is way too good at it. Her combos and edgeguard game are completely braindead, her spike comes at NEGATIVE risk for her (compare to Falcon's meteor, Roy's meteor, Wario's spike, etc), the "sweetspot" on her upb is one of the biggest hitboxes in the game and has guaranteed combos from throws on most of the cast.

Her bair is like Jiggs' bair, except it comes out in every direction, twice, at greater range with way more disjoint, and has less lag than Jiggs', and it semispikes. Not to mention that it's attached to a strictly far better character. Even if the rest of Ivy's kit (and her air mobility) wasn't as stupid as it is, that one move would still invalidate a significant chunk of the cast.

Camping and minimizing interaction are fine, if boring, playstyles. They become a problem when the character is so oppressively good at them that the opponent can't even play the game anymore.

I agree, the only real changes I can think of currently would be a rebalancing of her moveset so she is more like this:

A strong defense that has a few small, but noticeable flaws that can be abused to get in on Ivy. While Ivy's defensive game is very strong, it can be pushed through with either brute force or a careful but decisive strategy. In order to avoid being overwhelmed, the Ivysaur player must engage in periodic pre-emptive strikes in order to regain territory.

To put in more detail: while on the defensive, Ivysaur players must leave a sizable open space in front of them in order to correctly zone. While zoning, they are unable to advance if playing against a capable opponent, and will start to progressively be pushed back as the opponent starts to break through their defense. In order to regain territory, an Ivysaur player must be capable of quickly switching from a defensive position to an offensive advance quickly enough that their defensive zoning converts into an offensive cover.

During this time, Ivysaur starts to exude a strong pressure and can allow for some powerful combos on unsuspecting opponents. This is where the bulk of the damage that Ivysaur deals comes from, and must be timed in such a way to catch opponents offguard or during a time when they are vulnerable. This offensive strike can only be supported for a short duration before said cover dissipates.

It is here that Ivysaur will be at a slightly greater disadvantage that is typical and as such will surely take damage one way or another if the attack is too prolonged. At this point, it is the Ivysaur's goal to push the opponent back far enough that he can once again set up a defense and wait again for the opponent to show a vulnerability. Resetting to a defensive state is not easy and will take some careful movement and spacing on the Ivysaur's part, as it is here that the opponent can easily take the offensive.

Once Ivysaur gets the opponent offstage, it becomes a vicious struggle to get back on stage for the opponent, as Ivysaur's bAir and dAir can nicely finish off recovering foes if used in a careful way. The use of a Down Smash can also be a safer way to block opponents from sweetspotting the ledge and his Forward Smash can crush opponents who try to recover onstage.

Ivysaur however, has a relatively strong recovery that is quite susceptible to GIMPS and Edgeguards. The new Tether mechanics play a large number in limiting her recovery's overpowered stature but she is nonetheless a adept recovererer.

Ivysaur's Up Special Vine Whip also acts as a finisher, but has quite a smaller sweetspot to balance her out. Meanwhile, her Solar Beam keeps all of it's current glory.


This is really more of an guideline of how I'd like to see her play, but it obviously is too late for this to affect version 3.5 at all...


Version 4.0 anyone? XD

 

[Paradoxium]

Of course not. I don't have any problems with the design intent of Ivy's character- it's just that she's waaaaaaay too polarizing in the MUs where she's good. She has 100-0 matchups on D3 and Bowser, something like 75:25 vs Charizard, and a bunch more really dumb matchups. The problem is that her entire kit minimizes interaction with the other player - and is way too good at it. Her combos and edgeguard game are completely braindead, her spike comes at NEGATIVE risk for her (compare to Falcon's meteor, Roy's meteor, Wario's spike, etc), the "sweetspot" on her upb is one of the biggest hitboxes in the game and has guaranteed combos from throws on most of the cast.

Her bair is like Jiggs' bair, except it comes out in every direction, twice, at greater range with way more disjoint, and has less lag than Jiggs', and it semispikes. Not to mention that it's attached to a strictly far better character. Even if the rest of Ivy's kit (and her air mobility) wasn't as stupid as it is, that one move would still invalidate a significant chunk of the cast.

Camping and minimizing interaction are fine, if boring, playstyles. They become a problem when the character is so oppressively good at them that the opponent can't even play the game anymore.

And this is why I think Ivysaur is a dumb character

and thats a bad thing?

And yes, encouraging camping and super defensive play is a bad thing. Having a character who is super slow, has a very simple and easy kit, and basically slows down the game to a crawl is not a good thing. When the best strategy is Bair and Razor camping I think the character does have a problem. Characters who are boring to watch and boring to play against are bad for the game. Especially when they have polarizing match ups, brain dead neutral games, and free edge guards.

Watching Denti and Aerolink play is just sickening

 

[B.W.]

I guess I'm the only one who likes slower matches, even if they're full of projectiles.

Not that I don't think Ivysaur needs some tweaking. She does. But some characters playstyles are made to make the pace slower for the opponent. Just because Ivysaur's not going in all the time, or even going in after a hit off of a projectile, or B-Air or F-Air or whatever, doesn't mean that it's a bad thing. The only real problem with Ivysaur is that she doesn't have an holes in her camping/zoning like a campy character is supposed to have.

It sounds like people here would say "Young Link in Melee is a badly designed character because all he does is promote running away and throwing bombs/boomerangs and will time you out." All because Armada timed HBox out a bunch of times.

Personally I think slower matches are very entertaining.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I dislike super campy matches relative to more aggressive ones, but still manage to have fun with them in some matchups, and can see the appeal. Hell, I like Puff dittos in Melee. You nailed it re: Ivy, though. There are no holes in her defense.

 

[Paradoxium]

I guess I'm the only one who likes slower matches, even if they're full of projectiles.

Not that I don't think Ivysaur needs some tweaking. She does. But some characters playstyles are made to make the pace slower for the opponent. Just because Ivysaur's not going in all the time, or even going in after a hit off of a projectile, or B-Air or F-Air or whatever, doesn't mean that it's a bad thing. The only real problem with Ivysaur is that she doesn't have an holes in her camping/zoning like a campy character is supposed to have.

It sounds like people here would say "Young Link in Melee is a badly designed character because all he does is promote running away and throwing bombs/boomerangs and will time you out." All because Armada timed HBox out a bunch of times.

Personally I think slower matches are very entertaining.

Eh I see your point, the more unique playstyles the better. I guess I just have a lot of salt from playing Ivysaur players who basically bair and throw razor leaves all day.

I agree with her not having enough holes in her defense. I guess that is why the character is so frustrating

 

[TheFadedWarrior]

Super Omega God Ultragiga Superdeity Tier:
Omega God Giga Deity Tier:

 

[Ghirahilda]

it's impossible to beat a Squirtle with Zelda

 

[steelguttey]

please remove that signature oh my lord

 

[Player -0]

Squirtle dies at 60% all day and Nayru's pretty much beats most of Squirtle's approaches?


Squirtle does get around a lot of Zelda's Din's though.

Edit - Lightning kicks again

 

[shairn]

Zelda can't do much to stop Squirtle from approaching her. Bait out Nayru's, commence 0-death combos.
Zelda's OOS options can't do much against Squirtle's d-tilt on shield.

 

[Player -0]

Squirtle has 0-Death combos on floaties?

 

[steelguttey]

Squirtle has 0-Death combos on floaties?

who doesnt lol

 

[1FD]

I MADE A THREAD FOR THE ORIGINAL VERSION OF THIS POST

TOO MANY PICTURES EXPLODING BAD PCS

​

http://smashboards.com/threads/post-too-big-good-for-threads.364992/



















I don't know if I should just make this another thread, or just post it here...
But um... Nausicaa left me with a little something...

Hi, this is Nausicaa


With access to @ 1FD 's Avatar .gif collection MUHAHAH​

Pre-TL;DR

Spoiler

Big post?

Balanced game?

Disclaimer

Spoiler

I have some time before I leave, and after reading the last few pages, I've noticed there is some REALLY good context for me to get a point across that I've explained plenty, but hasn't seemingly come up in a while.

I'm posting this on 1FD's account as I'll be leaving shortly, and he'll be around for at least a couple more days to carry the conversation forward if anything comes of this. He'll also get back sooner than me (early Sept I think) and I'll be in brief contact with him again before then.

Last time I was near Internets was mid-July, and the conversation was about Bowser F-Smashes OOS, so this is a little more appropriate of a time for me to butt-in on the discussion. I sent 1FD a massive message to post (when he felt appropriate) but he never did... so here's something else.

If you want to contact me for some reason or another, PM me. @Nausicaa is a fairly new account of mine, so my inbox isn't rammed full. Don't worry, I'm friendly and would love to chat when I do get Internets.


You can always talk to 1FD too. He knows some things about locals and life and stuff and hangs around me enough to know secrets.

NOW, WHERE TO BEGIN​

You pretty much got it.

Project Everything Is Viable And Fairly Balanced So We Don't Know What To Bitch About But Melee Falco Is Fine

​

Best joke.
I'll come back to this quote later... and actually talk about Tier-related stuff using it.

But there's some things I must cover first.

​

RIGHT INTO THE NITTY-GRITTY​

Changes
​

Spoiler

A tiny change (to something in the game itself) makes a MASSIVE difference. Every little frame, pixel, or seemingly minor adjustment, tacks on alterations that take great effect on the whole. Maybe not on the overall game functionality (or even for the character it's directed to/at/with/from), but there is a mark, and it counts for something worth counting.

When it comes to competitive play, the impact on the meta-game of top level play from even a small change to something in the game, CANNOT BE OVERSTATED.

An example in relation to Melee would probably be the easiest way of presenting this given how much further it's developed, so I'll go with that.

OH SHI SPACY-TALK
​

So...
If Falco gained the lag-less reflection on his Shine (a PM alteration) in Melee, it wouldn't be a 'small' deal.

I'm sure with some contemplation, everyone could really see its potential impact on the game at all levels, but it's particularly top-level (the level that matters in this context) that gets hit hardest.

If you even just watch enough PPMP vs Armada, it would be pretty observable to see how much impact this kind of thing would have, but I'll go into some detail anyway.
Hint: there are a lot of Falco's [all of them] who would love this change more than most probably imagine they would.

- Keep in mind, the major applications would only really come against Sheik, Peach, and Falco dittos (lol at the mess that would create for a while), as most of the others worth mentioning wouldn't care regarding projectile-related changes.

Just looking at Peach vs Falco to start.

Spoiler

Any tech-chase or pressure with Turnips is instantly nullified with this change, and due to how effective a (4th frame) reflector when coupled with literally no hang-time AT ALL really is, Peach essentially couldn't use her projectile outside of extremely niche edge-guard scenarios and maybe if she manages to tech-chase with it hitting within the few-frame window.

Though at peak-play (again, the only level that matters here), her only chance to get that kind of opportunity established (a Turnip pulled safely) is when she forces Falco to tech and can't follow him by other means, or has a positional advantage with Falco off the edge.
MEANING?!?!?
- She could essentially never have a Turnip in hand during a circumstance that she could use them (outside of those niche edge-guards) unless it was to bait Falco into using Shine after a tech and FCing an Aerial at him instead. Yet even then, it's Shine... he can WD out like it's nothing, and it's nearly instant.

This tips things significantly in Falco's favor (relative to without it/as Melee is).
Significant, you say?

It's not a massive part of the character match-up, yet a lot of interactions that would otherwise be the-way-we-know-them-to-be-today, would be flipped on their heads to a decent extent in a remarkable way. This match-up, whether dead-even or favoring one of them, regardless of level of play, and more significantly at the fully-developed and flushed-out level (top), gets a very distinct alteration in a key series of interactions throughout a match.
The same can be said for Falco vs Sheik/Falco too.

So there we have it... Project: Falco Reflects Everything With His Reflector
Add this attribute to a game where more projectile-heavy play is an element of focus rather than a special instance among 'few' match-ups at the level of play that counts (GOOD characters), and it's safe to say (like... actually) that Falco's lag-less Shine alteration is straight up (no overstating here) game-breaking for the character.
MEANING?!?!?!
It could easily be deemed the factor that makes or breaks his nearly-raw transition (it's not raw, but even if that was the case) from Melee to PM.
Does it get that kind of credit? Likely no, but it likely should.
Guaranteed, Armada-Peach vs PPMD-Falco would (Melee)/will (PM) never look the same again.

If that was the only change, that would be huge.

But...

Spoiler

Here we have a BUNCH of crap thrown in, including more universal changes to the characters that aren't simply specific to projectiles.
- Peach having a WL on the stage
- Even smaller things like her U-Tilt improvement
- TOAD-BASED-GOD (oh lazerz? good luck with that bird-man)
- Then some Wavebouncing on those lazerz
- And RARing
- ETC

And you've got one messed up and UNRECOGNIZABLE match-up that the 2 best in the world against each other in that particular match-up would have a LOT of playing around to do before the nuances would even begin working themselves out into a stabilized/somewhat-concrete end-game-functioning way.

Then there's PM in its entirety.


Fuse an maneuverability and zoning game better than Melee Young Link, with the hit-box coverage and solidity of a better Melee G&W, and you're giving a character the punish game of Melee Doc in the process as a side-effect on top of it. The kind of control a character like this has can make some things obsolete.

Essentially, this plays into the counter-play of the previously mentioned Falco changes, while barely being kept-up with by the Peach changes when it was already built on a series of back-bones that could break game elements if taken too far. PM G&W would be simply a worse version of TL were it not for a more kit-meshing Pressure-Release + Offense-Conversion move in Up-B, and things like pet Turtles, otherwise the pace-control of TL-styled Characters would break the game fully.
^This is the Ivy/Sonic/etc complaints at a root. This is why games breaks.
The kinds of dramatic changes these characters have gone through can't be measured up to Melee other than a SINGLE OBVIOUS NATURE that comes WITH THIS KIND OF TREATMENT.

If the 'M' in Project: M DID stand for Melee, it would refer to the Top 5-10 Characters a LOT more than the Bottom 5-10 Characters, naturally.
With what has happened to the entire cast, especially those who have gone through dramatic changes when already being functional in some niche circumstances, and perhaps only needing minor functionality adjustments (say, and Grab that worked at ALL, let alone broke the character [at least 2.1 TL Grab was blown up so Kirby could have it lol-sarcasm]) to at least have something else in their kit worth mentioning... this M-Top-10-Focus is far more distinct and severe than even the DT and BR obviously fathom.
Changes, they ain't a small thang.

Now I'll get back to Project: M DIRECT

WE ARE IN THE KEN-COMBO ERA OF PROJECT: M
NOT BEYOND IT
I SHALL ATTEMPT TO EXPLAIN HOW SO
​

Ness isn't bad. He doesn't have the rudimentary combos of Mario, Diddy, Lucas, Sheik, DK, but he has good stuff.

Downthrow has follow ups on everyone at early %s, guaranteed bair on a portion of the cast. His normals don't convert into crazy stuff though. Fair can be followed up by fair, and fair can go into dair or nair, I guess dtilt can go into grab I am assuming, I know nothing of his jab, utilt seems good, but fair is the main option after a launcher and you push them off the stage to take advantage of that position. I don't like how streamlined his play feels even though I don't main him. It just feels like I should always PK fire>grab>dthrow>fair/bair and repeat until bair KOs or I can backthrow to KO.

Spoiler

Not that this is a special quote, but it's a simple example of what this post is about, and it's elaborate enough to provide good context for the point I want to make. (ty jtm94 <3)

I'll go into detail on things that are mentioned in this post, but that quote is a good example of something that is all-too-common in general discussion forums. I'm not sure what most areas of this forum/other forums/reddits/etc are, but if it's anything like here, then this is a good post to represent both the understanding + lack of understanding combination with the game as a greater-community with many individuals at all levels of play.

- It's the stuff that perpetuates both beneficial discussion and the plague of conditioned ignorance at the same time.

I'll first try to clarify a few things that more intermediate to advance levels of the community may not pick up on, before going into the finer details of what this all implies for the great-meta that is the meta-game.

​

Here's an easily observable example to start.
The example I'll use is a single (set) Ness-Ditto with 2 solid (currently-top) players who are using the character.
I specifically will point out 2 instances during the match.

It's discovery-channel time.
​

Spoiler

Before I get into this, (jtm94 specific in a way) try to take note of non-linear aspects of their play. Hopefully a match with a couple Ness's against their own character will clarify a bit.
Nothing is as linear as it seems (even those rudimentary Mario combos)

It is Smash after all. That game where you have more options/control when you're in the process of GETTING HIT by your opponent than most games have options when you're HITTING your opponent. lol

NUMBER ONE
The offensive end of the Ken-Combo era.

Spoiler

It's pretty observable just by the fact that people STILL GET HYPE simply from some things OCCURRING in the game.

Disclaimer: This isn't to say Hype combos aren't Hype.

What I mean by Ken-Combo era isn't that we're bad at the game/we're still learning to combo/we're not doing REVERSE KEN-COMBOS/etc. What I mean is...

We're still at a point in the meta-game (this is where changes in PLAY come in, rather than changes to the GAME ITSELF like the previous comments referred to) where the Ken-Combo type of maneuvers/events/happenings in (specifically) top-level play are the NORM
AKA - We're in baby-mode with the way we play this game even at the peak of our play.

It's simply the fact that getting Hype over any of the CORE GAME-PLAY BASICS...
Is like getting Hype for Marth F-Air > F-Air > D-Airs and Falcon Stomp > Knees.

Things that basically fit under you're-not-even-a-pm-player-unless-you're-used-to-it kind of stuff.
And it's a LOT more common stuff than most people tend to think.

I'm not talking about the fancy Marth/Falcon D-Air/Knee combos...
I mean like... Ken/Isai 2006 D-Air/Knee combos.

If anyone is getting Hype for the stuff occurring among top-level play, it is simply observational context for us to ALL know that in fact, we are in the Ken-Combo Era of Project: M.
AKA - baby-meta-game
In other words, there are things that fit the criteria of 'Ken-Combo' level of play, that get more hype than they should ONLY because we're in the baby-meta-game era

Examples of this include.

Spoiler

- Wario Waft Combos, which were basically out-dated/old-news before the window doubled from 60 > 30 seconds and before he could use Bite effectively.

- Luigi Misfire/Punch Combos, which have been as standard/BnB as Mario landing a F-Air after a basic string since long before he could hold Charges with Shield.

- Wolf Flashspot Combos, which were necessary/basic/brain-dead obviously essential Wolf-kit application combos back in 2.1 when it was mildly harder than it is now but practically the same. (Even as far as things like Blaster > WL > U-Tilt > Flash combos on spacies straight out of tech-chases, this stuff is OLD STUFF already but I guess it's always cool looking compared to most combos so hype it that's cool lol)

- ZSS Balrog Combos, even before her intangibility buffs and invincibility nerfs, combos into Up-B followed by Dive-Kick securing was old when she showed up in PM day-1

- TL Flamespike Combos, which were old when it was basically a 100% chance of happening every-stock combo in 2.1 when his Grab was more BS than KIRBY

^Those are just some examples that are easy to point out, but it's simpler than that.

Until we're at a point where Lucas's comboing into reverse-sweet-spot-B-Airs for kills off Magnets is the norm because people at even average levels of play are getting good at DIing out of Trouser-Snake Re-Grab situations, we ain't seen nothing yet.

Baby-Meta Hype

Here's how things are and where they're going.

Instance 1 from the Ness-Ditto example.

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abovSmsKgIs&feature=youtu.be&a#t=7m05s
- Just before the combo, Zeej does a Pivot_F-Smash (much to our convenience for this topic)
- During the combo, there is a Pivot_Grab (also juicy, so the pivots are there [I'm mentioning these for a reason])
- The combo itself is pretty standard Ness stuff.
(I even saw another video today where Wesballs did a combo on Plups MK with Falco that looks almost identical, people got hype over this Ness video and not as much in the Falco one, see how that previous point works?
Reminder of what this implies: There is extensive hype surrounding Project: M due to unfamiliarity with things that will continue to become more and more common and familiar as we play more and the meta-game grows. More importantly, it will be hype until the meta-game becomes more common-ground to the greater-community)
Aang = Now due to ignorance of how utterly normal this kind of thing is for Ness/other non-Falco characters
Toph = In a very short time once the audiences/players see as many of these as the Falco-combo version
Hint: Won't be long (because it's standard, you think these combos are special/these players won't be doing this/haven't done this a LOT by now? This making maybe a little bit more sense by now?)
DI and techs don't matter, what's of significance that I want to bring to attention is how the combo ends.
After 2 pivots and a bread-and-butter combo, Awestin goes for an F-Smash.
- Is it a tipper? No.
- Does it finish the stock? No.
- Would a tipper have finished the stock? Maybe.
- Would it have been a lot closer? You bet it would.
- Can Ness Pivot-F-Smash, and can these players do it? Yes. See; Zeej/his own Grab during the combo.

To give more context to how significant this instance is in 2 ways, here are a couple points worth mentioning.
Ending a stock is a big deal.
In this particular situation, a Pivot-F-Smash had no chance outside of terrible DI to finish that stock.
A Pivot-F-Smash would have outside of perfect DI, made the edge-guard easier to follow if not, and would have done more damage.
But more important and significant (that word again) than any of that...

IT IS AN EASILY OBSERVABLE AND APPLICABLE TOOL THAT WILL BE A NATURAL PART OF THE META-GAME IN DUE TIME​

What does that mean?
EXACTLY WHAT THE SENTENCE MEANS!

It will be applied and naturally part of their games (BOTH OF THEM AT ALL TIMES) because it's so easy and observably a step towards bettering/optimizing play AKA META-GAME BASICS​

Sure, this was a fun match between 2 Ness buddies, and some fun in edge-guarding and stuff is nice, but that's still an easy example of how even a simple combo can be further optimized from even currently-top level players.

When something is the difference between ending a stock vs not, when it comes to competitive play (top level optimization) something that finishes a stock is core to the meta-game.

Point/Example # 2 for even more context.

Spoiler

The last time I played Scorpadorp/Foxyfruit was a Mario (me) vs Fox (him) Melee match. The last match ended with me taking his stock with U-Throw > Pivot_F-Smash sweet-spotted against him ONLY because he DI'd so heavily to the side at mid-% that I could land it.
This was after his famous Mario-Main run.

MEANING?!?!?!
- Even the most experienced and skilled players (including the best in the world AKA better than myself), as well as the most knowledgeable (guarantee he's up there) at both the game itself (Melee) and the characters (both sides of the match-up at a Top Level of play), can lose stocks (Meaning; Games/Sets) to what can only be described as Diversity in the form of Experiential Nuances!

Nothing more than that. Nothing to do with who is a better player, and nothing to do with adaptation. It's simply something that can be faced that MAY NOT EVEN WORK AGAIN, but it's still threatening to surface at THAT (he's freaking the best in the world) level of play.

So how did this happen?
Look at the Melee Top Tier!
- Sheik/Peach/Falcon/etc don't even use F-Smashes.
- Falco/Fox/Jiggs/Pika/Samus/Doc/Luigi don't have minute sweet-spots that require silly amounts of precision.
- Marth has other means of lining his Tipper up given its range and his Grab/Aerial properties.

Hint: Those Ness players haven't seen this maneuver be core to any meta-game either (how long will it be though?)

Even at TOP LEVEL IN BOTH THE GAME ITSELF, AND WITH THE GIVEN CHARACTERS, there is STILL an element of play that is essentially OBSOLETE!

Guess what's common-ground B-n-B in Project: M?
Pivot-F-Smash applications and A LOT MORE
Guess what isn't in the current meta-game yet?
Basically everything most of us can't even imagine
​

So what in the world does this mean for Project: M?

Spoiler

Project: M is not only littered with nuances, the ENTIRE GAME is a giant nuance that everyone is trying to wrap their heads and fingers around, and when the entire community is bent on over-playing themselves into fluency rather than observing where their attention is (natural for anything of this nature) there's NO WAY that this nuance known as Project: M is anything more than a giant baby-meta-game taking its first breath.

There's a development team for a reason, and meta-games exist for a reason. Development is a process that cannot be bypassed. In no way, shape, or form, is almost anyone understanding or aware enough with the dynamics of this game to make an observably intelligible list of 'goodness among characters' with any accuracy outside of accidentally, with very few individuals as exceptions.

What does this mean for the members of the community who can't compete at a 'top' level, let alone those who aren't competing at that level in addition to being unfamiliar with the majority of the nuances in the vast content of the game otherwise? (See: Quote about Ness by jtm94)

It's not that anyone needs to improve their level of play. Not that anyone needs to sit around and wait for the next 'top' player to demonstrate something to the public on a view-able platform. The best thing anyone can do is work on the way they see the game. This goes even for the DT (they're a DT for a reason) and everyone involved with the game. Don't git gud at pressing buttons and battling, git gud at being aware of whatever it is you think 'gud' even means. I don't recommend or suggest focusing on awareness if this game isn't a big part of your life, but if you're going to make this game a part of your life, take a part of your life and make it THIS GAME. If you're going to do that, set some effort on at least evaluating your perspective of the game, as it's a lot more directly connected to your understanding of the game, and level of play when competing in the game, than anything else. Even your button pressing-skills. Trust me, I wouldn't be able to do what I do if I was busy over-playing myself into conditioned nuance-application like the majority of the community given how little I'm involved with the game, but it's a part of my life, and I can say that distinctly because of the way I see Smash.

Most likely, the majority of players in this community couldn't actually define what makes a top player a 'top' player.
Start there, and you will likely communicate functionally regarding the Tiers in the game itself in no time. I love you. Though the majority of postings in here just shout something along the lines of "members of the community require mental-practices" and otherwise it's like...



PS: We all will ALWAYS perpetually be working at that. The only thing I suggest everyone does, is to look in that direction slightly more. Discussion is too mundane around here without it, and never of value at that.
I think everyone here would be surprised how much slightly looking into the 'mind' can really do for a Smash game, in all ways.

^That could easily be the TL;DR of this entire thread.
For more context and elaboration!

Sure, we might be able to do Reverse-Ken-Combo style/level/whatever... elements and applications of this stuff (because we are generally WAY better at Smash now than we were in 06)...But the point is as follows...

The meta-game in terms of offense lacks the flushed-out nuances at any dynamic levels necessary to be anything more than what is easily described as poor defensive meta-game being long-term, but still temporarily, abused.​

NUMBER TWO
The defensive end of the Ken-Combo era.

Spoiler

After all of that, we're getting to a point where this should be pretty self-explanatory, but sometimes they're trickier to pick up on than meets-the-eye.

Instance 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abovSmsKgIs&feature=youtu.be&a#t=1m55s
With side note...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abovSmsKgIs&feature=youtu.be&a#t=6m33s

This is probably just straight up simple and obvious stuff to everyone after this post so far, but here's some detailing anyway.

1) Throughout the match, both players are dodging and intercepting each other out of PK Fire attempts, as well as occasionally getting caught by it while trying to do that to each other, it is an observable constant they can adapt to.
(AS SEEN IN SAMPLE 1 LIKELY UNINTENTIONAL BUT OBSERVABLE DODGE THEY CAN USE FOR FUTURE TRAP)
- happens often throughout the set somewhat by nature of them both making use of the maneuver

2) They both play Ness at a current-top level and are familiar with the character both offensively and defensively, well knowledgeable regarding PK Fire effects on Shield, as well as the attempts and maneuvers ESPECIALLY given the continuous play and consistency of the occurrence throughout a long set.
(AS SEEN BY THEIR USE OF IT AND THE EFFECTS OF IT)

3) Zeej shields after missing a PK Fire, in a circumstance that is essentially perfect bait to WD OOS behind what is an obvious PK Fire follow-up by Awestin given both 1 + 2 and their consistency throughout the set, and obvious nature of the match-up circumstance + consistent occurance.
(SIMPLE AS - WTF ELSE IS AWESTIN GOING TO DO)

Step 4) Shields the PK Fire.

This will NOT happen when the match-up vs Ness is flushed out.
It's kind of deep.
Kind of specific and particular.
But kind of obviously something that will not work as they play the match-up more.
You think top-level play is going to have that happen in anywhere close to an end-game?

That would be significantly overestimating and underestimating several things.
A)
- Overestimating the current individual meta-game of themselves and the opponent along with how well-aware of developments these players have become.
- Overestimating both the options of the character and decision making of opponents with those options when in a match against both their own character and following the observable adaptations throughout a set of the player.

B)
- Underestimating the abilities of these players and how much room they can and will grow in both short and long term given their current individual meta-games.
- Underestimating the game Project: M, and how open this game is to grow in meta-game in even the tiniest crevices of match-ups in even the most developed scenarios.

tl;rd that^
If you think you've seen anything cool (from these players or anyone else) you're both being silly, and in for something special over the next 'forever as long as PM exists' lol.


baby-meta, baby

Simple terms
1) Ain't no way Awestin missing that Pivot F-Smash next year.
2) Ain't no way Zeej shielding that incoming PK Fire next year.


Back to that quote by Umbreon, the talk about Ivy/TL/Link/defensive play/etc, and the quote by jtm94 (along with almost everything in this thread), falls under everything I've just mentioned.
More context anyway.
Big post?

Spoiler

It was around this time last year, and early 3.0, that Umbreon was adamant about Marth > Mario. As far as I've heard (from 1FD and seeing it now), he had a change in perspective and sees it more Mario > Marth now. (See how that 'focus on seeing' thing matters SOMEHOW?)
The dude is smart, so what does this mean if he's changing his mind?
Even one of the most observably intelligent posters (and probably people) regarding not only Smash as a game itself (if you haven't seen his thread, go check it out as it's well articulated on top of this), but likely both in Melee and Project: M in decent depth relative to most players of his level and understanding, as well as one of the most experienced in play at usually a top level in probably both games (I think he plays with PPMD often still), can have ever-changing insight on NOT ONLY things within the game, but an ever-changing insight on how his own insight changes.
^The visible layers for all to learn from!

This isn't an exclusive case either.
Lucien (a top Brawl and Melee player who ALSO has a great selection of very articulate and helpful videos/threads on Smash in general and both games) spent a good month on Smashmods arguing in rants about Snake/Wolf being poorly designed and bland characters. At this point it would be difficult to find someone who thinks either of them are boring OR terribly designed, yet it wasn't until I joined those forums to help members of the PMBR at the time (Vanguard and others) try to explain that he might be jumping the gun on his somewhat aggressive suggestions, that he finally gave it a chance that he could be 'overreacting' to his initial thoughts.
^It wasn't clarity in the game, but it was clarity in the way he was seeing it. Who knew?

Another example that's from another angle, is how the player listed as the current-top ZSS player spent the first month of 3.0 arguing against the current-top Roy and myself about Roy-specific points that would seem laughable arguments if brought up today, and on top of that, his current play-style with his own character is built around things he was adamantly arguing against during that same period.
^Things change, often without really seeing them even in hindsight, development on an individual level has more to do with the way someone sees the game, more than anything else.

It's not always a flip of insight either.

Even the best get a lot out of simple nudges when they're open to looking at things a little differently.

Even the best of the best at the current state of the game have grown plenty.
Show signs that they will continue to grow.
Have lots of room to grow.
Know all of this.
And will continue to do so essentially and indefinitely.

As will literally EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU

Yes, the 'top' players are/will always 'advance' the meta-game on the fore-front, and the game is being broken-in by them and the trickling in further advancement around of the entire greater community.
It's a good game, we're a giant awesome community of lovely people, we SO got this.


But when the entire meta-game is built upon those who have come so far from so many directions, with the observable washing-away of simple variations of ignorance, and those same people were unknowingly reluctant to see what they inevitably would grow beyond to be where we all are today,THERE IS NO TELLING WHAT'S NEXT.
If even the best were blind to now, only a year ago, can you imagine next year?
How far this game will go by then?

If you think the Project: M meta-game at even the highest current level is anything more than amateur-hour, you're in for a surprise.

Spoiler

We're not even at a point where things like this are the most observable difference-maker at top level play.

You should really just read these posts anyway.

We're not even CLOSE to that.

If you can't see this simple truth with clarity, then there is work to do on your understanding and clarity beyond surface stuff, and if you work with that weird 'mind' thing you have, you're in for an even bigger surprise.

I'm stoked for you, how stoked are you?

That's probably enough context to understand all of this...
In case this isn't clear enough, here are some basic examples of how this works in plain-sight.

Spoiler

There can't be a PM Hbox because the gimmicks worth abusing in an end-game haven't clarified themselves through the clutter of tricks still presenting themselves in the game. Not only because there are so many variables in a game with this much ground to cover in content alone (the game is vast), but because there is no sign of the end-game in even the smallest nooks within that content.

There can't be a PM PPMD because there is nothing/nobody extensively over-developed to a point where it's stable enough to consider studying towards beating or overcoming them, no specifics to take notes on that don't have a likelihood of becoming obsolete almost immediately in a following development, no textbook-play-style to possibly aim for, emulate, or challenge. There's no possibility of textbook-play as the books aren't WRITTEN yet. Maybe we have the title and the index, but probably not.

I couldn't have one of my ancient conversations in a thread with him for a solid 10 pages about why Falco should opt for anything but Shine after Aerials, unless it was about possible advancements in option selecting rather than observations at a developed-level of play. Simply because the general game-play isn't in a state where players are expecting something with definition in most circumstances due to the eventual over-conditioning that will come at all levels of play, let alone developed play. Nothing is ancient yet, so that's impossible.
On top of that, nothing is established enough as long-term core or B-n-B with significant enough stability for that type of option selection to even work (See WD OOS Ness example for vague similarity of surface-level stuff, the counter-play by the Ness using the PK Fire isn't even a fathomable topic worth mentioning yet).
A conversation about abusing established play can't even make sense at this point, and I doubt there are even 10 pages of valuable content in most areas of the PM forums. lol

There can't be a PM M2K because there hasn't been enough... anything (time/info/etc) for game-play to function even relatively close to optimal in terms of technical application outside of surface-level performance. If you're not perfect, you're not good enough, and it's essentially impossible at this point in PM's development. Not because it's an ever-changing game (There's a DT for a reason), and things like debug mode will help with keeping up in a lot of ways, but even if this game didn't change, the content is so vast that the nuances of play beyond technical precision far out-weigh the nuances of decision making precision, and when it's literally impossible for technical-perfection to be developed through Kadano-like threads, the application game is far from possible even with complete dedication to such a thing on a accurate depiction of performance-level.

There can't even be a PM Armada given even a focus on punishment game is futile with the ample diversity in the simplest combos being unfamiliar even SLIGHTLY to anyone doing the defending/recovering/influencing of the incoming offense. This essentially goes hand-in-hand with previous points. Until you see nearly every character (very few exceptions) doing top-level Melee Falco-esque type of combos on a regular basis, then the punishment of this game is at a bare minimal. The stuff anyone has seen from his Pit/Profs Snake/Wizzys Sonic/etc, is basically the Bombsoldier level stuff in PM. The Ken-Combo era in a nut-shell. Expect beautiful stuff by the month, and expect everyone else to have today's 'current' punish-game as the norm following up in due time.

Make sense yet?



If you think you get what Project: M involves as a game, read this post.
If you think you get what a meta-game means regarding a game, read this post.
If you think you can watch a video of anyone or anything regarding Project: M, and expect any of it to have relevance towards anything beyond observable implications that the meta-game isn't something that can define the state of the game itself, but merely our observable context to develop it further to our will accordingly, read this post.
Because TL;DR

The meta-game is a lie
The balance don exist
The tiers are stronk
The call-out is real


Super TL;DR
Squirtle Squirt, Squirtle



I had a lot of fun with this post.

Have a great... everything.

Love you all.


Your friendly hiding-the-mountains heart-bomb smash-bro
- Nausicaa

 

[Deleted member]

eww, lots of words

sorry but do you think I'm serious or care about this thread?

 

[steelguttey]

seriously take out all the gifs this page has an fps of a toaster rn

 

[KayB]

Don't know how much I agreed with that post, but it was very well-written and appealing to read thanks to the colors and gifs.

Whether your right or wrong kudos for making an enjoyable read.

 

[1FD]

HUZZAH

That post with Pictures (the original) is here now.

http://smashboards.com/threads/post-too-big-good-for-threads.364992/

Exploding too many computers.




I'm just gonna make a new thread, that post is huge.
*Not my post btw.

ANNNNND Done

Don't know how much I agreed with that post, but it was very well-written and appealing to read thanks to the colors and gifs.

Whether your right or wrong kudos for making an enjoyable read.

I'm interested in knowing what you disagreed with, if you don't mind sharing.

Nausicaa (the poster) is gone, but I get my account back now. :D

 

[didds]

HUZZAH

That post with Pictures (the original) is here now.

http://smashboards.com/threads/post-too-big-good-for-threads.364992/

Exploding too many computers.




I'm just gonna make a new thread, that post is huge.
*Not my post btw.

ANNNNND Done



I'm interested in knowing what you disagreed with, if you don't mind sharing.

Nausicaa (the poster) is gone, but I get my account back now. :D

So squirtle is the best then?

 

[InfinityCollision]

tl;dr
noteven10chars

 

[Player -0]

Squirtle's D Smash is the best. Also hydroplane.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Most important thing to come from TKBreezy's fraudtrailer:

Thank you based god

smallfastbowser for top tier

 

[Circle_Breaker]

so tldr for 1FDs post is pretty simply "game inst melee and can has undeveloped meta" right?

Sorry I just spent like 5mim reading a thing and really wasn't sure what I actually got out of it. Did anybody think we were playing a game as highly developed as melee already? Did anybody think characters "ported" from melee would also retain matchup specifics and tiny tech nuances?

Like, great abstract post, I guess. But I don't know how to just "think harder" about the game without also grinding out the button presses that you've criticized as a path to development. Because that's how people get to a frame-by-frame high level understanding of a game in the first place where the sort of deep technical insight you're urging becomes possible.

 

[Deleted member]

the main reason i think mario beats marth now is that mario is basically only bad against marth fair which is hilariously predictable once you realize it's all he's got. marth's main job is to convert in a way that puts the opponent in the air, and then carry them to the edge where you can marth them until they die. PM's projectiles, normalized cast movement speed, normalized cast attack range, incredibly diverse combo weights, much larger stage layouts, much improved recoveries, and somewhat improved crouching make this all very hard. marth is still running the same gameplan but when you're losing margin out the ass on every exchange he starts to fold to characters that are automatic and clearly designed to win in every aspect of which mario is the poster-boy. the other top tiers aren't great for marth either but this idea was more readily apparent from the get-go whereas mario was not.

 

[TheFadedWarrior]

Why aren't G&W, Lucas, and Pikachu any higher?

 

[menotyou135]

Why aren't G&W, Lucas, and Pikachu any higher?

Lucas is high on most people's tier lists. G&W is solid objectivly, but has bad matchups against most of the popular characters due to his weight (marth, fox, ect...). Pikachu has poor combat range and suffers against characters with longer disjointed hitboxes, which make up most of the PM cast.

That being said, there isn't such a thing as low tier in this game. Even IC, Jiggz, and Toonlink are all able to win tournaments, they are just less likely to do so. Everything in project M is equivalent of the A tier and above in melee (maybe B teir on some characters).

 

[classix410]

Does anyone else thinks that Palutina will be the new "Meta-Knight" in Smash 4.
She seems soooo overpowered
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsl3bNO1O0w

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Does anyone else thinks that Palutina will be the new "Meta-Knight" in Smash 4.
She seems soooo overpowered
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsl3bNO1O0w

Wrong thread bro

 

[Phan7om]

Lol that guy linked the trailer like we all havent seen it before.

 

[steelguttey]

dude talked about brawl and smash 4 in a project m thread smh

anyway why does everyone think g dubs is bad

ik the unpredictable-ness of judgement is kind of eh but he does have alot of ko options. nair is still one of the best aerials in the game (would be cool if it started up faster tho) and bacon is a godly projectile

 

[Phan7om]

And thats all he has

 

[Rᴏb]

****ty neutral game X
dies a little faster than normal
rng neutral + side b X
no answer to non-energy based projectiles
meanwhile the answer to energy based projectiles is laggy (punishable) X
gets combo'd hard
the things he's good at kind of get out shined because other characters do it better

he's okay, I'd like to see buffs (changes) to the areas I marked with an X and that's it. I think 3.5 will be a good patch for him with all the nerfs to the other characters and whatnot.

 

[shairn]

I don't want to see G&W buffed because then Bidoof is going to run train all over Montreal.

 

[PlateProp]

So squirtle is the best then?

SS Tier: Squirtle

Everyone else

Real talk tho, the only problem character (read: Character with serious advantage) i've noticed with Squirtle is Wario. But that's probably because I've barely played the match and have yet to find the things I can abuse. That or Wario's jank is meddling with my Squirtle Jank for dominance