Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
you wot m8my bottom 5 is probably
Seriously, yoshi has great tools now. It's just that nobody's bothered to learn him since Amsa decided to skip him in favor of keeping his sick Melee yoshi.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Seriously, yoshi has great tools now. It's just that nobody's bothered to learn him since Amsa decided to skip him in favor of keeping his sick Melee yoshi.
B.W.
Smash Champion
Squirtles spot was the hardest to decide on.
All in all Squirtle has the mobility and some fairly decent combos but that's it. He struggles to secure kills a lot of the time.
His main way of getting kills is gimping, and in a game where everyone's recovery is amazing that's not amazing. Only being able to score via gimping isn't a good thing unless you're a multijump character. The sad part is that he has powerful kill moves but very little reliable ways to set up/combo into these moves when it counts.
In that sense Squirtle reminds me a little bit of Melee Mario, where he kind of has stuff but it doesn't all work together when it comes to having to finish a person off because all of his finishers can't land when they're at the amount of damage you need them to be.
He's also not fantastic when it comes to the neutral game. Also his recovery goes far, but he's relatively easy to gimp.
All in all Squirtle has the mobility and some fairly decent combos but that's it. He struggles to secure kills a lot of the time.
His main way of getting kills is gimping, and in a game where everyone's recovery is amazing that's not amazing. Only being able to score via gimping isn't a good thing unless you're a multijump character. The sad part is that he has powerful kill moves but very little reliable ways to set up/combo into these moves when it counts.
In that sense Squirtle reminds me a little bit of Melee Mario, where he kind of has stuff but it doesn't all work together when it comes to having to finish a person off because all of his finishers can't land when they're at the amount of damage you need them to be.
He's also not fantastic when it comes to the neutral game. Also his recovery goes far, but he's relatively easy to gimp.
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Arrow (Kyle)
Smash Apprentice
You're wrong about a lot of things here. For one USmash kills at around 100-110% with good DI. Hydroplane USmash is an amazing mix-up tool and can get good kills.
Squirtle has decent neutral game, Shell shifting, Shell slings, Htdroplane grabs etc all come to mind when thinking of approaches in neutral. Though this is where he lacks the most, yes.
Gimping Squirtle is not easy at all. UpB has a hitbox in front of Squirtle and makes it hard to get a hitbox in to gimp. Withdraw has weak armor (or medium, pretty sure it's weak though) and as soon as it makes contact on someone Squirtle pops up vertically a bit allowing him to recover still. The only time I really see Squirtle get Gimped is by Mario's Cape and even then it has to be well timed.
Yes everyone has amazing recoveries cause lol PMBR but bubble is legit the best gimp. EVER. Then he also has Bair with a huge disjoint and fair with a decent disjoint on it, or nair with weak armor on it if Squirtle wants to go deep for it. Plus lets not forget... bubble.
Zx2963
Smash Journeyman
The thing is the bottom 5 aren't bad, just simply not good enough. I disagree with Gabon being there, he is a slight step ahead of the other 4 in terms of range, damage, grabs, etc
My personal bottom 5.
No specific order.
B.W.
Smash Champion
I'm just gonna say, hydroplane anything isn't very good against anyone who knows what's going on. It's incredibly telegraphed. If you ever get killed by hydroplane u-smash and you know of its existence kill yourself again because you don't deserve that second stock.
Up-B is fairly easy to trade with once you know how. Trading and grabbing the ledge often secures the kill vs Squirtle.
Bubble is a good gimping move but unless you have no choice why are you recovering low against Squirtle?
Up-B is fairly easy to trade with once you know how. Trading and grabbing the ledge often secures the kill vs Squirtle.
Bubble is a good gimping move but unless you have no choice why are you recovering low against Squirtle?
Arrow (Kyle)
Smash Apprentice
Hydroplane isn't at all telegraphed if it is used well. It is a great Punish tool for one.
UpB isn't easy to trade with lol name one move that trades well with Squirtle's UpB that doesn't have an insane disjoint? Not to mention a good squirtle can easily sweet spot the ledge, it isn't that hard with him.
If someone recovers low he has Fair/bair/nair If the Squirtle can wall them successfully he has an easy Stock with Fair, or force them to go low and get gimped by bubble.
UpB isn't easy to trade with lol name one move that trades well with Squirtle's UpB that doesn't have an insane disjoint? Not to mention a good squirtle can easily sweet spot the ledge, it isn't that hard with him.
If someone recovers low he has Fair/bair/nair If the Squirtle can wall them successfully he has an easy Stock with Fair, or force them to go low and get gimped by bubble.
B.W.
Smash Champion
Mario's B-Air, T.Link's F-air and B-Air (disjointed but still a small disjoint), Olimar's F-air and B-Air. No input on other characters because those are the three I play.
Also Squirtle has a decent jump height but he can't always jump high enough to intercept a character a recovering high.
Also just because you can punish with a move doesn't mean a move isn't telegraphed.
A hydroplane requires you to do your turn around animation and charge an attack. The second I see that turn around animation I'm fully prepared for some attack or a grab to come out.
Also Squirtle has a decent jump height but he can't always jump high enough to intercept a character a recovering high.
Also just because you can punish with a move doesn't mean a move isn't telegraphed.
A hydroplane requires you to do your turn around animation and charge an attack. The second I see that turn around animation I'm fully prepared for some attack or a grab to come out.
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mimgrim
Smash Hero
@Circle_Breaker The problem is that you are using Charizard's playstyle and then explaining that DDD doesn't have that same playstyle. DDD isn't meant to be a combo centric character. A rewarding normal doesn't always mean it leads to combos. DDD has rewarding normals because they help enforce his gameplay which is centered around poking and gimping. Also DDD has a hammer, which is equivalent to a sword, which gives him on of the best disjoints in the game along with the sword wielders. And you are totally wrong about him not being able to kill early, his great gimping game along with good kill moves like Fair and Dsmash and a few others. DDD also has a really good jab that he can do a lot with (Jab > Jab > Ftilt, Jab > Jab > Dsmash, Jab > Jab > Dtilt, Jab > Jab > Grab). His recovery is better then you give it credit for but is still totally fair, he has 3 jumps, Waddle Dashing is great horizontal recovery, and Super Dedede Jump can recover from deep, I'd say it's better then Charizards at any rate. the main thing you are correct about is DDD's mobility. Charizard has the best the best mobility of all the fatties which is why he is the best of all the fatties, however many of your other reasoning of DDD being worse/bad are completely false.
I'm pretty sure the armor for it was taken out in P:M, actually.
Crooked Crow
drank from lakes of sorrow
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- Jun 11, 2007
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- 2,247
Been YEARS since I've posted in this thread.
I was around for Brawl+ and Balanced Brawl days. So... why are Mario and Luigi so drastically different in placement? Game & Watch being dead last? O.o
I was around for Brawl+ and Balanced Brawl days. So... why are Mario and Luigi so drastically different in placement? Game & Watch being dead last? O.o
Welcome back. The reason Mario and Luigi are so different in placement are because... well... they're different characters. Several properties of each character are different like Mario's fireballs being better, Luigi's wavedash, etc. Also, that front page list is pretty outdated, no one really agrees with that list anymore. Read back a few pages and you'll see basically what everyone is saying, every tier list that I see has basically the same top 10 and bottom 5 lol.
Crooked Crow
drank from lakes of sorrow
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Yeah, I mean, it's hard for characters that possess such similar attributes to be THAT drastically different in terms of viability. They are not the same character, not in any Smash, but they're usually situated a few spots from each other. The moveset is practically identical, although the properties of these moves have differences.
Can someone link me an updated version or tell me what they think it should be? I mean, Game & Watch being bottom is feasible, but last time I checked Charizard and Zelda were super OP... it's been a while. D:
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Like i said, there isnt really an updated "version" its basically just peoples opinions. Go back a few pages (dont know if you're doing that) and you'll see what I mean.
Player -0
Smash Hero
Squirtle has a ton of movement options, after a turnaround he has all of his options, including standing still. It's similar to a dash dance except Squirtle gets even more options and movement.
Squirtle can simply do a running animation (Dash animation doesn't exist because Squirtle goes into shell shift super early) and hydroplane from that. It's extremely similar to a Dacus. Basically you don't have to do the turn around animation.
Squirtle's shell shift and hydroplanes are pretty similar to Mew2's teleport except for the fact it doesn't teleport.
Edit:
Luigi and Mario have different attributes such as floatiness, weight, friction. This alone gives them a lot of differences. They also have some similar moves like their throws but their actual moves are way different. Their aerials have varying lag, both beginning and end, animations, knockback.
Luigi and Mario are definitely not clones of each other and haven't been since 64.
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Crooked Crow
drank from lakes of sorrow
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Okay, will do so.
Well, I think everyone here already knows that. Even in 64 they weren't clones.
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Mera Mera
Smash Journeyman
@
mimgrim
@Circle_Breaker
DDD's f-tilt is extremely disjointed. 2/3rds-ish of Zard's tails is disjointed, not all of it, so Zard's d-tilt and DDD's f-tilt do not compare. That said, DDD's disjoint, aside from f-tilt, is much less than what people think. In his animations he has a hand close to the hammer head when he swings the hammer, meaning only the head of the hammer is disjointed, and a hutbox is waiting right behind that. It's still decent disjoint, but not as much disjoint as sword characters. Zard generally wins the disjoint battle when DDD is in the air, although Zard's nair is the only thing that can beat DDD's dair when DDD is above, and it takes some "start up" to get to the desired upward disjoint from nair.
As for recovery, both characters have pretty good recoveries for getting back as long as they are high (aka the did survival DI). If Zard glides, however, he has a much harder time than DDD getting to the ground. DDD's waddle dash gives him a projectile to protect himself with, and he also doesn't have to lose any jumps to use it (downward light throw of waddle -> air dodge works as long as he has some forward momentum already). Zard loses all of his jumps, if he glides, however. That said, Zard has glide cancel momentum tricks and side b shenanigans to help him land away from the opponent, but understand that Zard is in a worse position than DDD if he does get hit in this situation (cause no jumps).
Overall Zard is probably a decent bit better than DDD, mostly due to his strong advantage against aerial opponents (which allows him to combo/juggle even floaties pretty well). Also Zard has more reliable mobility and deals with pressure a bit better than DDD. DDD is still good though. I personally think he's one of the best edge guarders in the game, and also he has one of the best grab games. I'm not sure where he'd fall on the tier list... Zard is probably in the top 50% of the cast though, and I'd guess that DDD isn't.
mimgrim
@Circle_Breaker
DDD's f-tilt is extremely disjointed. 2/3rds-ish of Zard's tails is disjointed, not all of it, so Zard's d-tilt and DDD's f-tilt do not compare. That said, DDD's disjoint, aside from f-tilt, is much less than what people think. In his animations he has a hand close to the hammer head when he swings the hammer, meaning only the head of the hammer is disjointed, and a hutbox is waiting right behind that. It's still decent disjoint, but not as much disjoint as sword characters. Zard generally wins the disjoint battle when DDD is in the air, although Zard's nair is the only thing that can beat DDD's dair when DDD is above, and it takes some "start up" to get to the desired upward disjoint from nair.
As for recovery, both characters have pretty good recoveries for getting back as long as they are high (aka the did survival DI). If Zard glides, however, he has a much harder time than DDD getting to the ground. DDD's waddle dash gives him a projectile to protect himself with, and he also doesn't have to lose any jumps to use it (downward light throw of waddle -> air dodge works as long as he has some forward momentum already). Zard loses all of his jumps, if he glides, however. That said, Zard has glide cancel momentum tricks and side b shenanigans to help him land away from the opponent, but understand that Zard is in a worse position than DDD if he does get hit in this situation (cause no jumps).
Overall Zard is probably a decent bit better than DDD, mostly due to his strong advantage against aerial opponents (which allows him to combo/juggle even floaties pretty well). Also Zard has more reliable mobility and deals with pressure a bit better than DDD. DDD is still good though. I personally think he's one of the best edge guarders in the game, and also he has one of the best grab games. I'm not sure where he'd fall on the tier list... Zard is probably in the top 50% of the cast though, and I'd guess that DDD isn't.
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GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Mario is considered top and will likely drop back to high if they (and please do DT) restore his fireballs to 2.6. He is top almost solely because of fireballs. Luigi has a lot of struggles but I think he's underplayed as well.
JOE!
Smash Hero
They should swap Mario and luigis fireballs
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Marios fireballs were the same in 2.6. They were buffed with that patch
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Wrong. Bowser and ICs and Jiggs are awful.
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Foo
Smash Lord
Bowser isn't awful, he is above average at almost everything >.> He has long range, armor, kills crazy early, has TWO kill throws to mix up DI with, relatively low lag on his moves, works well against projectiles with his crouch armor, an unparalleled ledge game, survives to very high %, and has good vertical mobility with down-B. His only weaknesses (granted, they're big weaknesses) is that he gets combo'd like CRAZY and is really slow. He's not an above average character, but he's certainly viable. Not sure he's even bottom 5, but he is definitely bottom 10 in pro play.
Basically, he gets bodied in a lot of matchups in pro play by getting 0-deathed all day, but is really strong in certain matchups. In casual play, he's REALLY strong. I don't really think bowser needs to be changed, it's fine to have characters with a really low skill-floor that suffer at higher levels of play.
As for ice-climbers and jiggles, I agree. I have no idea what to do about iceclimbers, because the idea of a double character seems inherently busted in smash. As for jiggles, she just needs a useful up-b and side-b that are totally different from what they currently are.
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thatoneguy1
Smash Journeyman
don't forget his armor on his moves that help him zone (at least that's what i do)
Crooked Crow
drank from lakes of sorrow
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... Fireballs you say? That's it? Nothing else has intrinsically changed about Mario?
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Most of that is blatantly false.
He has 0 kill throws. Bthrow can only kill if your opponent has atrocious DI. He has more lag on most of his moves than any other character in the game. He is terrible against projectiles - crouch armor only guarantees that he'll get hit. It's next to impossible to evade grabs with him. He dies very early to any character capable of edgeguarding or meteor/spiking (see: almost all of them) , and has terrible vertical mobility due to his godawful jumpsquat.
He also has no neutral game AT ALL, no way to approach, and a terrible dashdance.
True.
Easy to say that when you don't play the character. =/
I, and most bowser players on here, would far prefer if he were able to at all compete in competitive play, at the expense of being somewhat worse in casual play.
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steelguttey
mei is bei
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he got the benefits of mario and dr mario to make the ultimate hybrid of frustrating normals that are better than everyone elses
marios only problem is that he doesnt have a sword lol
WIZRD.Pro
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2014
- Messages
- 186
About Ice Climbers, I say focus their design around DeSynchs and DI Mixup Throw Combos. For example:
- DI Mixup on Forward and Back throws are DI mixups that can cause combos if DI'd incorrectly
- Back throw has high initial knockback with low scaling (I think that's the term), good for getting opponents off-stage and kills at high percents.
- Up throw can be used to start a juggle at very low percents but is otherwise quite useless.
- Neutral game based on DeSynchs and baiting to get a grab.
- Grabs do not equal death on most characters, but are very dangerous and should not be taken lightly.
Mario is so good that his limbs aren't even a real problem anymore.
He probs beats characters like Marth and Ike now.
He probs beats characters like Marth and Ike now.
InfinityCollision
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
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- 1,245
Can't speak for Ike, but Marth counters Mario pretty well.
Uhhhhhh.
Only a handful of their moves have significant similarities that go beyond superficial attributes and range, and that's not new to PM. Their movement, combos, recoveries, etc all differ significantly.
Not in a game where competitive balance is the primary focus.
Scuba Steve
Smash Ace
I think with the kill throw thing he's talking about the koopa klaw throws. Those are pretty strong and I've seen them kill fairly early.
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Player -0
Smash Hero
I heard that you can just DI down vs. Marth and you always get as far away from Marth as possible (so no F-Smash). Dis troo?
I don't think that is true. Down + Away sounds like the most accurate for his Fthrow and Dthrow. You want to go 90 degrees from the throw angle, and I'm pretty sure his angles are somewhat diagonal upwards? So diagonal downwards in the same direction gives you the most. His throws would have to be near completely ---------- horizontal for DI down to be optimal: I dunno how many throws are actually like that?
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1FD
Smash Ace
These quotes and other squirt talk
He's annoying in the neutral game, which amounts to something but definitely doesn't overwhelm or win it most of the time. Just makes it... long and slow since he can stagnate the game with silliness. lol Pretty awesome though
This allows him to play the game of attrition decently, which sounds odd and coutnerintuitive but it's basically how he functions. The reckless-but-not-actually squirtles that like to go in a lot are basically being too aggressive. Gotta be a passive beast like a Pika and just lounge around in spots the opponent doesn't want you to be, then pounce on your openings WHEN they come, rather than try and make openings.
His best way of killing in 2.6 was Aqua Jet as far as I saw. bamesy and 343 (locals) basically combod everything into the sweetspot of that for free kills if they touched you below 100% on every character and it was SO easy for them to set up with squirtle stuff. That and the threat of his BS ftilt made him really scary. Haven't seen either of those players in a LONG time and haven't seen them play the character at all in 3.0 though. I think AJ was buffed or something, but ftilt nerfed, so idonno how that stuff would work now but it was bnb from what I saw.
bamesy is also the only person i've seen do the jank PM exclusive luigi BS so maybe his squirt was just jank like that because he's slidy too. Because of this I'll never believe anyone who says Luigi is bad, and lean more towards Luigi being one of the better characters in the game even outside of being a little slower on raw WDs. Tho his lucas and zss are more jank and I think they're slidy. slidsy, new name for him, and zss and lucas are too good to be true too.
I BELIEVE!
I actually really wanna play squirtle and talking about him makes me want to more.
Imma learn turtlez
Bowsers Bthrow of SideB is the bomb throw that I think whoever mentioned bowser having kill throws was refering to
_Odds agreed
Bowser being suseptable to grabs beyond reason, and having no real way of closing space without being the one making the hard reads, are what REALLY set him back. No the bad recovery or or anything like that, those are cool traits/weaknesses. His DDneutral game is trash because of the jumpsquat and laggy moves. Outside of mixups when he DOES get to you, he can't really set them up because he can't REALLY get to you.
It's Ganon syndrome but backwards almost.
Ganon can corner someone ok, but can't do anything once they're cornered. Bowser can't corner anyone, even though he could do stuff if he got them there. Hence they're both so good in mid-decent level play and fall apart at the top.
Player-0
Go read up on kadanos marth data thread and you'll get everything you need to knw about the character in PM too (basically)
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Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
The Klaw bthrow is pretty strong, but mostly because EVERYONE DI's it really poorly. If you DI properly, it's not nearly as scary.
Unless it's a large disjoint, Squirtle's recovery has to be approached like Roy's UpB, which is either beating it to the ledge or baiting and punishing end lag. It's pretty difficult to reliably beat out Squirtle's UpB, though it is possible. Squirtle also has the side b mixup that can be platform cancelled, bubble to stall with, and a wall cling.
And his main struggle isn't the neutral or securing a kill, but rather avoiding death if you're touched. His techs remain garbage, but a weakness like that isn't too big of deal and can played around. Any character with a decent neutral game and punish game will never be bottom 5 because the issues they have can be played around. Falco gets killed when he's touched and people still place him top five. Ganon on the other hand can destroy most of the cast with his punishes, but it makes no difference since he can't get in ever, which is why he is basically seen as a joke (I don't necessarily agree with that though).
Anyone with the movement Squirtle has, mixup to deal with CC'ing, a solid combo game, and a DI throw mixup to secure kills (dthrow is a kill, fthrow leads to fair if they DI for the dthrow) is not a bottom 5 character.
Plus the shades are cool.
and Yoshi is good too. Not everyone needs aMSa to see the worth of P:M Yoshi.
And his main struggle isn't the neutral or securing a kill, but rather avoiding death if you're touched. His techs remain garbage, but a weakness like that isn't too big of deal and can played around. Any character with a decent neutral game and punish game will never be bottom 5 because the issues they have can be played around. Falco gets killed when he's touched and people still place him top five. Ganon on the other hand can destroy most of the cast with his punishes, but it makes no difference since he can't get in ever, which is why he is basically seen as a joke (I don't necessarily agree with that though).
Anyone with the movement Squirtle has, mixup to deal with CC'ing, a solid combo game, and a DI throw mixup to secure kills (dthrow is a kill, fthrow leads to fair if they DI for the dthrow) is not a bottom 5 character.
Plus the shades are cool.
and Yoshi is good too. Not everyone needs aMSa to see the worth of P:M Yoshi.
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1FD
Smash Ace
100% truf^
Yoshi in my top 10 for lyfe still
Anyone on the yoshi and sonic trains yet? It's like every 10 pages since 3.0 released I've been trying to hype them up. 1 working but that's mostly because wiz i think. Yoshi needs more hype.
Yoshi in my top 10 for lyfe still
Anyone on the yoshi and sonic trains yet? It's like every 10 pages since 3.0 released I've been trying to hype them up. 1 working but that's mostly because wiz i think. Yoshi needs more hype.
Foo
Smash Lord
- Back and forward throw both kill, they just kill at higher% than almost all of his other moves, I just threw them in there because they exist, I could have left them out.
- Considering bowser's slow speed and powerful moves, you can act out of them earlier than you'd expect. I'd give precise numbers, but I am having trouble reading the frame data for bowser. For instance, it says his fsmash has a starting animation of 20 seconds, and the hitbox is out from frame 15-19. I don't really understand them lol. They are laggier than average for sure, but they are less laggy than moves of similar power.
- I certainly wouldn't say bowser has no neutral game, I've seen bowser players go toe-to-toe with falco and come out ahead. ( can link if you want). From what I've seen, his neutral game consists of forward air,air grab and grounded up-bs
- Crouch armor is good against projectiles because you can crawl, allowing you to just go through them if you have to.
While he has a long jumpsquat, his downb brings him for the ground to the peak in only 11 frames, and you can act immediatly out of it.
All this being said, I'm not saying he's good, just that he's still viable. I also think a redesign would be a good idea, because having a character built around armor is REALLY dumb.