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Tier List Speculation

1FD

Smash Ace
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How do you guys feel about ness? I'm curious about the community's opinion.
da bess
Sexy combos
Sexy neutral
Sexy mixups
Sexy combos
Did I mention sexy combos?
Sexy finishes off those combos




Bowsertalk

I love playing Bowser and hope he doesn't get messed with TOO much
But a tad more functionality would be cool

DON'T TOUCH MY JAB

BEST JAB
 
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InfinityCollision

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 9, 2014
Messages
1,245
Unless it's a large disjoint, Squirtle's recovery has to be approached like Roy's UpB, which is either beating it to the ledge or baiting and punishing end lag.
This, or hit them from above/above and slightly behind if possible. It's easier against Roy since he's bigger, has a weaker recovery, and has that hangtime after the hitboxes end, but it is possible to do the same to Squirtle.
 
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Frost | Odds

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- Considering bowser's slow speed and powerful moves, you can act out of them earlier than you'd expect. I'd give precise numbers, but I am having trouble reading the frame data for bowser. For instance, it says his fsmash has a starting animation of 20 seconds, and the hitbox is out from frame 15-19. I don't really understand them lol. They are laggier than average for sure, but they are less laggy than moves of similar power.
Sorry, it's really clear you've never played bowser seriously, or learned the matchup against him. There is nobody in the game (including Ganon) whose kit is so consistently laggy and/or unsafe across the board.

- I certainly wouldn't say bowser has no neutral game, I've seen bowser players go toe-to-toe with falco and come out ahead. ( can link if you want). From what I've seen, his neutral game consists of forward air,air grab and grounded up-bs
Bowser beats falco because Falco's projectile doesn't do any damage (therefore Bowser doesn't mind crawling through it - unlike pretty much every other projectile in the game) and Falco's throw game sucks. One of his very few positive matchups.

- Crouch armor is good against projectiles because you can crawl, allowing you to just go through them if you have to.
It helps, but that doesn't mean Bowser can actually approach people with projectiles. At best, the person throwing the projectile is an idiot and takes a dtilt for about the same amount of damage that the projectile did in the first place. I shoudn't need to point out that this usually doesn't happen. Everyone can play runaway vs bowser.

Moreover, using crouch armor is just more bait (like everything else in Bowser's kit) for getting DD grabbed.

While he has a long jumpsquat, his downb brings him for the ground to the peak in only 11 frames, and you can act immediatly out of it.
No, it doesn't. He doesn't leave the ground any faster than normal, you need to burn your DJ (and are therefore completely hosed if you miss), and can't use any attacks until the DJ animation is done. Please restrict your commentary to characters about which you have any idea wtf you're talking about.

All this being said, I'm not saying he's good, just that he's still viable. I also think a redesign would be a good idea, because having a character built around armor is REALLY dumb
yes
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
Can't speak for Ike, but Marth counters Mario pretty well.
hard disagree. as soon as mario doesn't lose to marth fair that MU goes downhill for marth very fast. i personally would be quite comfortable against any marth in the PM community as mario- a character i don't play at all.
 

Scuba Steve

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The Klaw bthrow is pretty strong, but mostly because EVERYONE DI's it really poorly. If you DI properly, it's not nearly as scary.
I'm not too in the know with Bowser, but can't he choose which direction to throw you? If so, the throw itself is fairly quick and could definitely serve as a DI mixup. Regardless, the throw kills pretty early for a command grab. It's nothing to scoff at and is definitely a helpful addition to his kit. To be honest, I think what holds back Bowser the most, and most of the fatties in general, is the fact that they are just giant hurtboxes begging to get combo'd.
 

PandaPanda Senketsu

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hard disagree. as soon as mario doesn't lose to marth fair that MU goes downhill for marth very fast. i personally would be quite comfortable against any marth in the PM community as mario- a character i don't play at all.
You don't have to play Mario to know how to play Mario LOL
 

Foo

Smash Lord
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Did you change your mind about bowser then?
No, I just need to proof read and think out my posts better lol. When I said he didn't need to be changed, I meant he didn't need to be changed from a balance perspective. From a design perspective, he really should be changed. He doesn't NEED to be changed because he is a viable, albeit weak character, but he still SHOULD be because his concept is toxic.
 
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Circle_Breaker

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
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sububububububurbs
Browsing the P:M reddit forums is like some weird alternate reality where sonic isn't very good since he isn't 2.5 sonic. so many people are like "oh he's gimmicky, so average, he's been nerfed too hard already", it kind of makes my brain hurt. But am I crazy and he is actually pretty balanced? Or is everyone really that fixated on tournament results? I just can't really think of what bad matchups he has other than Falco, maybe.
 

1FD

Smash Ace
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Browsing the P:M reddit forums is like some weird alternate reality where sonic isn't very good since he isn't 2.5 sonic. so many people are like "oh he's gimmicky, so average, he's been nerfed too hard already", it kind of makes my brain hurt. But am I crazy and he is actually pretty balanced? Or is everyone really that fixated on tournament results? I just can't really think of what bad matchups he has other than Falco, maybe.
He been broke since 2.1
Don listen to slowpokes
 

FreeGamer

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How do you guys feel about ness? I'm curious about the community's opinion.
People's opinions of where he belongs on a tier list will vary across the board, but I'd say he fits Mid quite well. His only major problem is that PK Fire is his best option 95% of the time. If they were to nerf that move and compensate him by buffing his other neutral options, he'd be solid.
 

victinivcreate1

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Can't speak for Ike, but Marth counters Mario pretty well.
@Umbreon please enlighten this gentleman.

If he doesn't respond, I'll do it for him.

2.6 Mario Changelist

-Down Tilt can be interrupted sooner
-Down Tilt base knockback slightly increased, knockback growth slightly decreased, toe part of the leg sends at a straight up angle and each part more inwards on the leg sending at lower angles
-Down Tilt lower leg portion given short invulnerability frames during when the attack is out
-Up Smash functions like Melee Mario's Up Smash at the beginning but then changes back to Doctor Mario's Up Smash vs grounded opponents as he brings his head down in the front -- Vs aerial opponents it is still Mario's Up Smash
-Forward Aerial has a tweaked flash graphical effect over the fist
-Down Aerial lowest hitbox placement adjusted more towards the center
-Standing Grab box shifted outward slightly for more range
-Neutral B projectile slightly increased in damage, knockback growth slightly decreased to compensate
-Neutral B projectile no longer degrades in hitstun, size, or knockback as it bounces. Now uses a consistent set of hitstun, size, and knockback values
-Neutral B can be interrupted sooner
-Side B doesn't reverse controls/momentum for as long

WTF at invincible dtilt.

Mario has a million launchers, meaning he can't really be CC'd by Marth, while easily CCing Marth. Fire Balls shut down Marth. Marth can fair through fire ball but get hit by a follow up. Mario juggles Marth and can CG him too (correct me if I'm wrong). Guaranteed follow ups out of down throw, easily gimps Marth, and can KO cleanly if needed too.

Mario only fears fthrow fthrow fsmash from Marth at low percents. After that, Mario doesn't really worry about anything. Marth beat this character down in Melee. Why is he losing 65:35 all of a sudden?
 

Frost | Odds

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I'm not too in the know with Bowser, but can't he choose which direction to throw you? If so, the throw itself is fairly quick and could definitely serve as a DI mixup. Regardless, the throw kills pretty early for a command grab.
There is no mixup. The fthrow combos some people at some percents, but otherwise will put you too high for bowser to follow up. It will never, never ever kill you directly.

If you're at a percent where bthrow could plausibly kill you, there is no reason for bowser to ever fthrow, because you're totally out of combo range. If you're in combo range, Bowser will never bthrow, because it does nothing.
 

didds

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This, or hit them from above/above and slightly behind if possible. It's easier against Roy since he's bigger, has a weaker recovery, and has that hangtime after the hitboxes end, but it is possible to do the same to Squirtle.
Yea it's definitely possible, I've been shine spiked consistently out of my UpB by a good fox. Squirtle still needs mixup like everyone else.
 

Zx2963

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You mean Ness's DJ?
Have you even played Ness? He has some of the easiest and straight forward combos that only look complex because of magnets and DJC's, but they're already beast and really easy to do across the board against any character any time.
Are we talking Lucas or Ness
 

1FD

Smash Ace
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If his DJ was faster, gahlike combos.
Are we talking Lucas or Ness
So, that's a "no"?
Have you even played Ness?
So let me get this straight.
You 4 are saying that because Ness has a tad of hang-time off his DJ before rising, that he doesn't have the ability to combo...?
I'm pretty sure with basically 4 of his 5 aerials in combination with magnet all basically built around leading into follow-ups by dragging opponents into good positions mid-combo, topped with one of the more auto-combo based D-Throws in the game and a DJC cancel for control, that it more than makes up for a slow DJ in terms of giving him great extended combos into finishers.

Maaaaaybe it's just me being bias due to local Ness's and the Ness's that are publicly known/seen on whatever popular streams exist all being magical and getting combos when nobody else can combo.... but I kiiiiiind of doubt that.
 

jtm94

Smash Lord
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Ness isn't bad. He doesn't have the rudimentary combos of Mario, Diddy, Lucas, Sheik, DK, but he has good stuff.

Downthrow has follow ups on everyone at early %s, guaranteed bair on a portion of the cast. His normals don't convert into crazy stuff though. Fair can be followed up by fair, and fair can go into dair or nair, I guess dtilt can go into grab I am assuming, I know nothing of his jab, utilt seems good, but fair is the main option after a launcher and you push them off the stage to take advantage of that position. I don't like how streamlined his play feels even though I don't main him. It just feels like I should always PK fire>grab>dthrow>fair/bair and repeat until bair KOs or I can backthrow to KO.
 

FreeGamer

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So let me get this straight.
You 4 are saying that because Ness has a tad of hang-time off his DJ before rising, that he doesn't have the ability to combo...?
I'm pretty sure with basically 4 of his 5 aerials in combination with magnet all basically built around leading into follow-ups by dragging opponents into good positions mid-combo, topped with one of the more auto-combo based D-Throws in the game and a DJC cancel for control, that it more than makes up for a slow DJ in terms of giving him great extended combos into finishers.

Maaaaaybe it's just me being bias due to local Ness's and the Ness's that are publicly known/seen on whatever popular streams exist all being magical and getting combos when nobody else can combo.... but I kiiiiiind of doubt that.
No, I agree that his combo/punish game is amazing even with his slow DJ. I was calling you out on that fraudulent generalization you made about his combos being easy against any character at any time.
 

1FD

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For a comment like that to be fraudulent, I don't think it would be possible for Ness's d-throw > aerial game be across the board notoriously known as JUST that, making combos easy against any character at any time.
Sure he ain't mario, but do you even dthrow? ;)
 

KayB

Smash Master
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Is Marth a bad matchup for Link? I only say this because KDJ beats Wolf with Marth and Lazarond has a lot of trouble trying to beat Dart!
 

DMG

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It's probably even. Aerolink doesn't make the MU feel like I have any real advantage, and I think his notorious style proves the MU better than more aggro Link players. We all make the joke "why do anything else besides Boomerang into Boomerang?", but no Link comes even close to embodying that stuff at the level and duration Sergio does. Projectile camping + holding down when Marth is close = not a good time.
 

metroid1117

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Is Marth a bad matchup for Link? I only say this because KDJ beats Wolf with Marth and Lazarond has a lot of trouble trying to beat Dart!
I'd also argue that KDJ and Dart are both more experienced players than Wolf and Lazarond, considering that KDJ was active back in 2007 (?) and Dart has been active for at least two years before Lazarond began to play.
 
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KayB

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I'd also argue that KDJ and Dart are both more experienced players than Wolf and Lazarond, considering that KDJ was active back in 2007 (?) and Dart has been active for at least two years before Lazarond began to play..
KDJ I can get behind, but Dart's sort of on and off. He doesn't play on a consistent basis right? Even if Dart was more experienced than Lazarond, Lazarond's no slouch himself. Despite that, Lazarond has had a consistent losing streaking against Dart for some time now, so I thought that was strange.
 

Apollo Ali

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Marth/Link used to feel hard for me but now I realize it's probably pure even and you just need to play the matchup well.

Wolf has a ton of Marth experience against Sora and AOI as well and it's not like KDJ's Zelda is a slouch. But their Marth Link games looked WAY harder for Wolf than the Zelda ones.
 

Ripple

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My DDD got bodied by a lot of texas players.

watch my DDD vs. Denti. that MU is literally 100-0
 
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