Tier List Speculation

[Jellyfish4102]

3.5 can be good for her.

Wait were in 3.0. Sheik isn't definitelybad, but nope at top 10. Pretty much every top tier has guaranteed follow ups out of a certain move that sets up combos, KOs, all that good stuff. Mewtwo has tilts/up throw/fair. Sonic has spindash. Wolf has shine. Fox has shine. MK has down throw and up air and down air at times. Lucas has shine PK Magnet. Lucario has Extreme Speed (when cancelled with an aura charge) at the BARE MINIMUM (practically every move of his is a combo tool/KO setup lol).

What does Sheik rely on? Incorrect DI. Not guaranteed. She plays a guessing game, the tops get free follow ups.

Yeah Sheik is good but other characters are just way better at everything.

Also nitpick: it's Psi Magnet not PK Magnet.

 

[Dakpo]

Wtf samus is like a top ten character lol

The point is that I think good players can represent a character higher than where they really are. Esam thinks Samus is #2 or #3...

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Due to community response I have put Sonic one tier higher. I've also placed G&W into the "A Bit Lacking" tier. I am not sure if this is exactly where he fits so it's really more of a guess than anything.

 

[Roxas215]

Idonno what "top" spacies and lucases you're handling, but it's not like she has a good time with them in melee and pm isn't much different.
I can't even touch good lucases with her.

PS her neutral game is good because she can nullify a lot of options in neutral to get an advantage, like how bowser nullifies 'some' falco stuff in neutral, but she doesn't give any characters a hard time in neutral. It's up to them to give her a hard time, and up to her to nullify that. Neutral isn't her strength so much as she's just a beast at nullifying the advantages characters usually have. Unfortunately the usual PM character is brokeandjank lol

Sheik can crawl now. That alone is huge in sheik favor vs spacies compared to melee. Im not saying sheik beats them free. But its no where near as hard as it was in melee.

Mewtwo mk sonic and link gives sheik far more problems then spacies

 

[DrinkingFood]

The point is that I think good players can represent a character higher than where they really are. Esam thinks Samus is #2 or #3...

Well once you get to that area you really are splitting hairs on placement, nvm then lol

 

[Jiggle4Life]

Why is it when someone gets good, nobody can accept the player might be good, but tell him that his character is broken. this needs a fix

 

[DrinkingFood]

I went and scrolled through the last page and didn't see anyone saying that. The **** you talking about

 

[steelguttey]

Why is it when someone gets good nobody can accept the player might be good but tell him that his character is broken this needs a fix

please for the love of god punctuate

 

[Jiggle4Life]

please for the love of god punctuate

lol sorry I typed it out on my phone fixed now

I went and scrolled through the last page and didn't see anyone saying that. The **** you talking about

im basically saying that for the entire thread, the whole thing is stupid to me.(this is just my opinion)
it is just a big argument for absolutely no reason at all

 

[1FD]

^jiggle4life drugs confirmed

Sheik is one of the toughest characters to use in melee because of that whole -not really being in control but kind of- thing and it's harder in pm. She's still boss, but i think wolf and a few others take the champions-of-stalemating-smash title from her now.

 

[Roxas215]

Why is it when someone gets good, nobody can accept the player might be good, but tell him that his character is broken. this needs a fix

What are u talking about??? Who said that??

 

[Roxas215]

^jiggle4life drugs confirmed

Sheik is one of the toughest characters to use in melee because of that whole -not really being in control but kind of- thing and it's harder in pm. She's still boss, but i think wolf and a few others take the champions-of-stalemating-smash title from her now.

Ivy completely takes that crown now. If any character FORCES you to play at their tempo/speed its Ivy.

Poor poor sheik. I still love her though. .(sry for double posts. Im on my phone)

 

[Plum]

3.5 can be good for her.

Wait were in 3.0. Sheik isn't definitelybad, but nope at top 10. Pretty much every top tier has guaranteed follow ups out of a certain move that sets up combos, KOs, all that good stuff. Mewtwo has tilts/up throw/fair. Sonic has spindash. Wolf has shine. Fox has shine. MK has down throw and up air and down air at times. Lucas has shine PK Magnet. Lucario has Extreme Speed (when cancelled with an aura charge) at the BARE MINIMUM (practically every move of his is a combo tool/KO setup lol).

What does Sheik rely on? Incorrect DI. Not guaranteed. She plays a guessing game, the tops get free follow ups.

You're acting like Sheik doesn't have easy setups from stuff like tilts, jabs, land canceled needles, and soft aerials. Or that she isn't one of the few characters in the game capable of edgeguarding a majority of the cast with reliable ways to get the opponent offstage and into a bad position.
Okay, her throw game is nerfed to no longer have guaranteed setups on most of the cast, but it still sets up for edgeguards and techchases... and she's still of great at both of those.

 

[Eionio]

From what I have seen at tournaments I think the list goes something like

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
F:

I think that MewTwo Pit Diddy and Fox are the strongest characters in the game right now based on tournament results and my own personal struggles against them. I think Mario is right outside the the top though.

Project M meta is always changing plus with the new version this could totally change on me. So really anyone within the B-D section of the list could be moved around but this is just from what I have faced and what I have seen.

 

[Pseudomaniac]

Why is it when someone gets good, nobody can accept the player might be good, but tell him that his character is broken. this needs a fix

It seems to me like people undervalue their own characters and overvalue other's characters, especially when they struggle against those characters. Even top level players sometimes do this. Basically, it boils down to a key difference between Melee and P:M. In Melee, if you struggled against a certain character, the only solution was to practice and play smart and get better, while in Project M, you can invest tons of time into figuring out how to counter a character, or you can try to beg the PMDT to "fix" it. Additionally, since P:M has not been officially released, there are genuine balance concerns mixed in among people complaining for no good reason. I think once the final version of the game (4.0 I believe) is released and further development slows, you'll see people stop complaining as much and there might actually be discussion of how to beat characters rather than simply going on for pages about how such and so character is broken and what the PMDT needs to do to fix it.

 

[Mr.Random]

It blows my mind that people think Sheik is bad.

As for Jiggly, her sing can't be buffed so long as she has rest.

That's not true. I think it should go through shields as a sort of mixup. It won't be broken because if she misses she gets punished (just roll away). Even with that she still won't be THAT good.

From what I have seen at tournaments I think the list goes something like

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
F:

I think that MewTwo Pit Diddy and Fox are the strongest characters in the game right now based on tournament results and my own personal struggles against them. I think Mario is right outside the the top though.

Project M meta is always changing plus with the new version this could totally change on me. So really anyone within the B-D section of the list could be moved around but this is just from what I have faced and what I have seen.

Falco is definitely still top tier and results prove that. He literally has perfect neutral. Who cares about the bad recovery when it's insanely hard to even grab or hit him.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Well, I for one have never seen a falco main make it to finals, and it's quite rare to see one in top 8.

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Paradoxium]

Power shields tho, that's one of the reason's why people believe m2 beats Falco.

 

[Mr.Random]

Well, I for one have never seen a falco main make it to finals, and it's quite rare to see one in top 8.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Wiz go to the tournament results thread and you'll see Falco in the top 8 for almost all of the tourneys

 

[Roxas215]

You're acting like Sheik doesn't have easy setups from stuff like tilts, jabs, land canceled needles, and soft aerials. Or that she isn't one of the few characters in the game capable of edgeguarding a majority of the cast with reliable ways to get the opponent offstage and into a bad position.
Okay, her throw game is nerfed to no longer have guaranteed setups on most of the cast, but it still sets up for edgeguards and techchases... and she's still of great at both of those.

Her edguarding skills are mostly negated when fighting almost anyone from the brawl cast though. 3.5 sheik is gonna be very interesting to see where she ends up with these recovery nerfs.

And while i don't think it's a bad thing sheik no longer has guaranteed setups. It does leave one to wonder why sheik doesn't yet characters with BETTER on stage game does. Allowing characters like Lucas/Sonic/Mario etc to have guaranteed kill setups ON TOP of having better neutral games(And better recoveries) just leaves a sour taste to me.


But off the sheik topic for a bit. I think Lucas is a better character then Pit. I just think Zero is a amazing player. Zero is making Pit look that good. Lucas makes the players look good. (Or i could just be salty about Lucas........ That's a very good possibility. Lol)

 

[thatoneguy1]

Power shields tho, that's one of the reason's why people believe m2 beats Falco.

its his insane recovery that i believe is bad for that match up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oijhXWDtuww#t=154
(i'm no falco pro and yes that is a cpu but thats besides the point)

 

[Ripple]

So here I am at ltc2 and I'm playing some really good players and question why anyone would play ddd anymore.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

From what I have seen at tournaments I think the list goes something like

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
F:

I think that MewTwo Pit Diddy and Fox are the strongest characters in the game right now based on tournament results and my own personal struggles against them. I think Mario is right outside the the top though.

Project M meta is always changing plus with the new version this could totally change on me. So really anyone within the B-D section of the list could be moved around but this is just from what I have faced and what I have seen.

this tier list makes me angry

 

[Player -0]

this tier list makes me angry

Me too, TLink isn't bottom 5?

 

[Circle_Breaker]

mostly the placement of in the same tier as and below the likes of makes me way more upset than some scrubby tier list should.

 

[Ace55]

From what I have seen at tournaments I think the list goes something like

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
F:

Which of the chars below him is Ganon supposed to beat? Bowser, IC and possibly slightly Peach is all I can come up with.

 

[MLGF]

I still don't get how people aren't placing Sonic at the top 3.
A good sonic makes it so that hitting him is based entirely on predicting where the opponent will be, he's just that much faster then the rest of the cast and his mobility options go beyond the abilities of reaction time.

 

[vgspud]

I still don't get how people aren't placing Sonic at the top 3.
A good sonic makes it so that hitting him is based entirely on predicting where the opponent will be, he's just that much faster then the rest of the cast and his mobility options go beyond the abilities of reaction time.

I don't ever really play against Sonic, what would you say are some bad MUs?

 

[Phan7om]

I think that MewTwo Pit Diddy and Fox are the strongest characters in the game right now based on tournament results and my own personal struggles against them.

Cuz, you know... thats what makes a tier list. Nothing to do what the characters can do or anything.

 

[Player -0]

I believe tier lists are based off of results.

 

[Deleted member]

A tier list is a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results. We then separate characters at statistically significant gaps to be grouped with their relative equals, and those groupings are called "tiers". A tier list is, in essence, a "prediction" list as to how any given character will fare in a competitive setting. We naturally assume top level of play.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

With all respect, that's one philosophy you can adhere to during the creation of a tier list. But "assum[ing] top level of play" is at odds with "relevant tournament results". Assuming perfect play is theorycraft, which is a valid consideration w/r/t tier list formulation, and there's obviously more to creating a tier list than collecting tournament data and counting points to determine character placements.

 

[Phan7om]

Tier Lists shouldnt be based off of Tourney Results nearly as much as it does now. There are lots of flaws with that kind of thinking.

Example:
Say in Melee tons of people picked up Kirby/Pichu, so much to the point where GFs of every tournament were between a combo of those two. Would that then make the character like high/top tier? No. They still have very lacking tools compared to other characters.

If it was just a collection or prediction of what would be successful in a competitive setting at top level play... id say thats different than a "tier" list, more like a "popularity/prediction" list.

 

[MLGF]

I don't ever really play against Sonic, what would you say are some bad MUs?

Maybe Mario/Lucas since they can stop his ground game with projectiles if the Sonic is reckless, but edgeguarding and punishing wonky movements can just be borderline impossible.

As for matchups he wins... err... almost everything? I think if you don't have a projectile you lose horribly and even some projectile characters (EG Falco) a just annihilated as soon as Sonic gets in, he just punishes that hard.

He's low risk high reward, it's pretty extreme.

 

[vgspud]

Maybe Mario/Lucas since they can stop his ground game with projectiles if the Sonic is reckless, but edgeguarding and punishing wonky movements can just be borderline impossible.

As for matchups he wins... err... almost everything? I think if you don't have a projectile you lose horribly and even some projectile characters (EG Falco) a just annihilated as soon as Sonic gets in, he just punishes that hard.

He's low risk high reward, it's pretty extreme.

Hmm, good info, thanks. Know of any good Sonic vids I can watch?

 

[victinivcreate1]

Guys few things

If we're making tier lists based off results, Mario, Diddy and Pit are top 3 EAZY. Mewtwo has won like 1 or two tournaments, all by the same guy.

Whats the consensus on Kirby and Snake? Some people think Kirby is dominant, some like myself think he is nothing more than a bunch of gimmicks that won't work at the highest level of play. As for Snake, Professor Pro is off the charts. The character I know is not broken but he reminds me of space animals.He gets a hit and its a huge combo. Its kinda ridiculous. A good Snake can get a C4 stick, a chaingrab, and a zero to death combo in one interaction between his opponent via just a grab. The only thing I think sucks for Snake is his horrible susceptibility to well spaced shield pressure and his approach.

Also I wouldn't consider top ten. She has all of these guys to deal with>>

 

[Bazkip]

he is nothing more than a bunch of gimmicks that won't work at the highest level of play

Did you forget ChuDat exists?

 

[victinivcreate1]

Did you forget ChuDat exists?

Forgot what happened when he played the best of the best and that his gimmicks eventually couldn't help him out?

coughZeRocough

 

[Bazkip]

Forgot what happened when he played the best of the best and that his gimmicks eventually couldn't help him out?

coughZeRocough

So going up against Armada isn't high level play?

 

[victinivcreate1]

So going up against Armada isn't high level play?

Does Armada even own PM? I mean I remember Mew2King saying that in doubles, he felt that Armada was rusty as heck, and Armada hasn't won a PM tournament in a while after never losing one, and I don't think its because all of a sudden people are wayyy ahead of him in terms of skill.