Tier List Speculation

[Ace55]

I just think it's overall cleaner and intuitive that a banned stage cannot be picked by either player.

The purpose of banning is to lessen the advantage the opponent gets when he counterpicks you. I don't see why they should decrease my own counterpick options later on (on top of the opponents bans).

There is also the point of the person banning second having 'better' ban options since the first person has already eliminated some stages.

 

[thatoneguy1]

so who do you guys think is only top tier? to me it would have to be:
(not in any order) mewtwo, lucas, fox, falco, pit, sonic.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Predictions for post-3.5 meta, assuming (for the sake of simplicity) that recovery nerfs will be the only balance changes in the patch?

My predictions:
Fox will be top tier

 

[Scuba Steve]

Predictions for post-3.5 meta, assuming (for the sake of simplicity) that recovery nerfs will be the only balance changes in the patch?

My predictions:
Fox will be top tier

Bold prediction

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Okay, let me try this, Project: "Almost a Tier List" is a go!

Characters who are without a doubt definitely proven Top Tiers:



Characters who are amazing:



Characters who are very good:


Characters who are Solid (Upper):


Character(s) who seems quite hard to place but is definitely solid:



Characters who are Solid (Lower):



Characters who are a bit lacking:



Characters who I believe are definitely bottom Tier:


NOTES:

• is lower due to his horrible recovery being even more toxic to him in P:M due to the fact everyone and their grandmother can recover, thus his foes live longer and he has more room for error.
• I haven't seen much of and in top 8 P:M vids so I really don't have as much opinions on them.
• is placed so high mainly due to Awetin's constant results in tournaments
  
• and are low due to how hard they got hit in the transition between games. Jiggly was only top tier because of how well he countered Melee's top 8 and the fact other characters like and are much better alternatives. Marth and Sheik due to how easy it is to recover in P:M.
  
• 's placing confuses me due to Sethlon's placing and my own experiences maining him, along with the results of non-Sethlon Roys

My co-Mains:



My Secondaries:



Characters who I fiddle with at times:



Characters who I believe are Very Well-Balanced:



Characters who are fun to watch:


Characters who I don't like watching:


Fin.

 

[CyberZixx]

Despite Falco's recovery I still think he easy top 5. Personally I still think he is 2nd. His presence on stage is so good that if a falco is on point the off stage is moot.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Despite Falco's recovery I still think he easy top 5. Personally I still think he is 2nd. His presence on stage is so good that if a falco is on point the off stage is moot.

Yeah, but I haven't really seen any truly amazing onstage Falcos yet. Some really good ones, yes. But I've yet to see one who can onstage as perfect as he'd need to be.

He's definitely a great character to play, but with the nerfs to his Laser loss of DP on Shine and the Power Creep in P:M, he's not nearly as good as he once was.

 

[thatoneguy1]

as for marth in pm he is high tier but not top to me as the rest have stupidly good recoveries so unless you dair or fsmash almost nothing will ko.

 

[Plum]

Predictions for post-3.5 meta, assuming (for the sake of simplicity) that recovery nerfs will be the only balance changes in the patch?

My predictions:
Fox will be top tier

Sheik da bess
not actually da bess, but pretty damn close
Currently there really isn't much that gives Sheik significant trouble, she's an excellent solo character, but if edgeguarding is further emphasized in 3.5 that's basically a dream come true for Sheik. She's already among the best edgeguarders in the game.
As it stands now I think Sheik is probably top 10, and 3.5 sounds like it's only doing good things for her.

 

[kchamp523]

Okay, let me try this, Project: "Almost a Tier List" is a go!

Characters who are without a doubt definitely proven Top Tiers:



Characters who are amazing:



Characters who are very good:


Characters who are Solid (Upper):


Character(s) who seems quite hard to place but is definitely solid:



Characters who are Solid (Lower):



Characters who are a bit lacking:



Characters who I believe are definitely bottom Tier:



Fin.

Surprisingly I agree with most of this list.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Surprisingly I agree with most of this list.

Except like everyone else he keeps just throwing sheik at the bottom because "recoveries". Sheik wasn't third in melee just off the strength of her edgeguard. She has an excellent combo game against floaties and fast fallers, kills off the top or the sides easily, has a gimp game that goes deep between needles and walljumps, and solid matchups vs. the current top tiers. She doesn't play nearly as close to the ledge as puff does and hurt a lot less going from melee to P:M. It's offensive seeing her below a lot of those characters. C. falcon? Marth? ****ing DK and Pikachu?

 

[Paradoxium]

I don't think the opponents recovery plays that much of a role against Falco. Mainly because Falco's dair is a spike, meaning it will kill you regardless of how good your recovery is. But a lot of character have really good back throws which spells trouble for our fine feathered friend.

 

[thatoneguy1]

I don't think the opponents recovery plays that much of a role against Falco. Mainly because Falco's dair is a spike, meaning it will kill you regardless of how good your recovery is. But a lot of character have really good back throws which spells trouble for our fine feathered friend.

i've seen mewtwo recover from offscreen under final destination from a falco dair

 

[Deleted member]

Sheik lost some popularity due to all the cool new characters and her lack of significant buffchanges. That's the only reason I think people are putting her so low. She is still a great character, and I would definitely put her in the top 10. She ain't no Jigglypuff.

People are also underestimating Peach for the same reasons, although she's not in the top 10.

 

[Foo]

Okay, let me try this, Project: "Almost a Tier List" is a go!

Characters who are without a doubt definitely proven Top Tiers:



Characters who are amazing:



Characters who are very good:


Characters who are Solid (Upper):


Character(s) who seems quite hard to place but is definitely solid:



Characters who are Solid (Lower):



Characters who are a bit lacking:



Characters who I believe are definitely bottom Tier:


NOTES:

• is lower due to his horrible recovery being even more toxic to him in P:M due to the fact everyone and their grandmother can recover, thus his foes live longer and he has more room for error.
• I haven't seen much of and in top 8 P:M vids so I really don't have as much opinions on them.
• is placed so high mainly due to Awetin's constant results in tournaments
  
• and are low due to how hard they got hit in the transition between games. Jiggly was only top tier because of how well he countered Melee's top 8 and the fact other characters like and are much better alternatives. Marth and Sheik due to how easy it is to recover in P:M.
  
• 's placing confuses me due to Sethlon's placing and my own experiences maining him, along with the results of non-Sethlon Roys

My co-Mains:



My Secondaries:



Characters who I fiddle with at times:



Characters who I believe are Very Well-Balanced:



Characters who are fun to watch:


Characters who I don't like watching:


Fin.

Not saying I disagree necessarily, but could you explain why you think Game and Watch is so high up?

 

[Plum]

People like to obsess over the Dthrow change as well, but then you realize that Sheik was beating the characters she could CG with or without it. There's definitely cheese in PM that Sheik doesn't like to deal with, but like... nobody likes dealing with Jesus Mario with his Twelve Apostles (1. Fireball 2. Fireball 3. Fireball 4. Fireball 5. Fireball 6. Fireball 7. Fireball 8. Fireball 9. Fireball 10. Fireball 11. Fireball 12. Fireball).

 

[steelguttey]

Characters who I believe are definitely bottom Tier:

what

 

[CyberZixx]

Gonna be glorious when in 3.5 DDD just bthrow's everyone off stage to a bair wall of death.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Not saying I disagree necessarily, but could you explain why you think Game and Watch is so high up?

Dakpo has shown he is quite a viable character and I really have no major reasons not to put him too low.

what

I really haven't seen any good DDDs since Fly at Apex 2014.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My sources are:

My experience playing friendlies
VGBootCamp
ClashTournaments
Tourney Locator

 

[menotyou135]

What does everybody think of squirtle? I have seen some tier lists place him really low and some place him fairly high. Thoughts?

 

[Kaeldiar]

People like to obsess over the Dthrow change as well, but then you realize that Sheik was beating the characters she could CG with or without it.

It wasn't just the chaingrab, it was more the techchase and follow-up ability. It's much harder to do either of these in PM if they DI correctly.

 

[Jiggle4Life]

What does everybody think of squirtle? I have seen some tier lists place him really low and some place him fairly high. Thoughts?

Squirtle probably has the weirdest play style I don't think he is broken at all I think he is just good his dash armor or whatever is really good wich is his biggest gimmick I think

 

[steelguttey]

I really haven't seen any good DDDs since Fly at Apex 2014.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My sources are:

My experience playing friendlies
VGBootCamp
ClashTournaments
Tourney Locator

his recovery and gimping ability alone puts him in mid tier.

olimar should be a little higher btw

 

[Jiggle4Life]

his recovery and gimping ability alone puts him in mid tier.

olimar should be a little higher btw

is olimar good? ive never played one but from what ive seen he is pretty bad

 

[steelguttey]

is olimar good? ive never played one but from what ive seen he is pretty bad

literally every single person ever says this

yes he is good

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Sonic is 100% top tier, wtf everyone who puts him upper mid or bottom of the high tier. Ridiculous (seriously fantastic) neutral game, insane punishes, combos everyone into kills off the top starting from like 40%, also broken non-linear recovery and offstage game. OPEN UR EYES SHEEPLE. WIZZY IS ONLY THE FIRST.

 

[Dakpo]

Dakpo has shown he is quite a viable character and I really have no major reasons not to put him too low.

I am a viable player, its not the character. I feel the same way about Fly playing DDD and Esam playing Samus.

 

[Roxas215]

Shiek is in a weird position. Melee pursuits insists Sheik is fine and is still very viable while PM only and Transitioned brawl players can see the hit Sheik took. Both sides overrate their ideas on the character.

Sheik's dthrow nerf- People think it's still very good and other people think it's horrible. Sheik's dthrow is only good when you don't know how to di it. PMBR claims sheik dthrow gives her a 50/50 regrab option. But thats just not true if u di correctly.

Removal of tether when u have such OP recoveries in this game is just a slap in the face for sheik players. Yes recoveries are getting retooled but this is a discussion for the current codeset.

However Shiek's neutral game is still as solid as ever. And her neutral game alone make it's impossible to put her anywhere near the bottom of the cast. She also handles 1/2 of the "top" characters quite well (Spacies/Lucas/Diddy) However the other "top" characters absolutely destroys her (Mewtwo/MK/Pit/Mario/Link)

Then u have the people who think Sheik is fine where she is at because she can change to Zelda who is very good now. However why should a sheik player be forced to use Zelda to get the most out of sheik? Thats just bad game design.

What i hope they do for sheik is finally separate Sheik/Zelda once and for all. Also with the across the board recovery nerf idk if they think it's a good idea to give sheik her tether back. I will admit that a recovery nerf will probably help sheik out THE MOST out of any other character in the game due to her insane edgeguard ability. So sheik being able to edgeguard even better maybe it's not a good idea to buff her recovery. However if you dont give tether back PMBR has to do SOMETHING about side b. As it stands now IT'S WORTHLESS. There is nothing good about that move at all and Sheik is just down a move option when other characters have clear rhyme and reason for every single one of their moves.

 

[Player -0]

Slap to the face to Sheik players.

Slap.

...


I see what you did there.


__________________________________________
If I start placing high with Squirtle can I say I'm a viable player, it's not squirtle?

Also I thought we agreed that almost (almost almost alsmostoamsltotm) every character is viable.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Sheik's dthrow nerf- People think it's still very good and other people think it's horrible. Sheik's dthrow is only good when you don't know how to di it. PMBR claims sheik dthrow gives her a 50/50 regrab option. But thats just not true if u di correctly.

The reason they say that it's a 50/50 is because you're supposed to mix up between using down throw and back throw. The correct DI for one throw is the incorrect DI for the other. You can't just mindlessly use down throw as soon as you get a grab anymore. Well, you can, but it won't be as effective as mixing it up. Even then, there are still follow ups off of down throw regardless of DI, they just aren't always regrabs.

However if you dont give tether back PMBR has to do SOMETHING about side b. As it stands now IT'S WORTHLESS. There is nothing good about that move at all and Sheik is just down a move option when other characters have clear rhyme and reason for every single one of their moves.

Not that I don't agree that all moves should have some kind of use, but Sheik is most definitely not the only character with a useless move. Pikachu's dash attack, warlock punch, Squirtle's water gun, Luigi's dash attack, Jigglypuff's sing, the list goes on.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Melee pursuits insists Sheik is fine

If anything, Melee players are the ones that seem most likely to ***** and insist she's low tier because they're trying to play Melee Sheik with PM Sheik's kit. That's a huge mistake, missing out on a number of beneficial changes and additions to her kit. I'm not even talking about down-b here. The only straight nerf she got from Melee was fixing needles.

Sheik is better than she was in Melee. Very much top 10 material even now. 3.5 could be a very interesting time for her.

 

[Player -0]

The reason they say that it's a 50/50 is because you're supposed to mix up between using down throw and back throw. The correct DI for one throw is the incorrect DI for the other. You can't just mindlessly use down throw as soon as you get a grab anymore. Well, you can, but it won't be as effective as mixing it up. Even then, there are still follow ups off of down throw regardless of DI, they just aren't always regrabs.


Not that I don't agree that all moves should have some kind of use, but Sheik is most definitely not the only character with a useless move. Pikachu's dash attack, warlock punch, Squirtle's water gun, Luigi's dash attack, Jigglypuff's sing, the list goes on.

Squirtle's water gun is good. At least I've been told it is by the Squirtle boards. Jigg's sing needs a tiny bit more (Longer sleep?) and it'll be an interesting mixup. What if it worked like a command grab..?

 

[Rᴏb]

It blows my mind that people think Sheik is bad.

As for Jiggly, her sing can't be buffed so long as she has rest.

 

[Roxas215]

The reason they say that it's a 50/50 is because you're supposed to mix up between using down throw and back throw. The correct DI for one throw is the incorrect DI for the other. You can't just mindlessly use down throw as soon as you get a grab anymore. Well, you can, but it won't be as effective as mixing it up. Even then, there are still follow ups off of down throw regardless of DI, they just aren't always regrabs.


Not that I don't agree that all moves should have some kind of use, but Sheik is most definitely not the only character with a useless move. Pikachu's dash attack, warlock punch, Squirtle's water gun, Luigi's dash attack, Jigglypuff's sing, the list goes on.

Each and every move you listed is better then Sheik's side b.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Chain jacket is still a thing in PM. Chain may not be a great tool or really even a decent tool, but at least there's an occasional (rare) "oh hey I could do this" as opposed to it inevitably leading to "oh **** why did I do that".

 

[Circle_Breaker]

They're planning on fixing her needles still, right?

 

[1FD]

She also handles 1/2 of the "top" characters quite well (Spacies/Lucas/Diddy) However the other "top" characters absolutely destroys her (Mewtwo/MK/Pit/Mario/Link)

Idonno what "top" spacies and lucases you're handling, but it's not like she has a good time with them in melee and pm isn't much different.
I can't even touch good lucases with her.

PS her neutral game is good because she can nullify a lot of options in neutral to get an advantage, like how bowser nullifies 'some' falco stuff in neutral, but she doesn't give any characters a hard time in neutral. It's up to them to give her a hard time, and up to her to nullify that. Neutral isn't her strength so much as she's just a beast at nullifying the advantages characters usually have. Unfortunately the usual PM character is brokeandjank lol

 

[victinivcreate1]

If anything, Melee players are the ones that seem most likely to ***** and insist she's low tier because they're trying to play Melee Sheik with PM Sheik's kit. That's a huge mistake, missing out on a number of beneficial changes and additions to her kit. I'm not even talking about down-b here. The only straight nerf she got from Melee was fixing needles.

Sheik is better than she was in Melee. Very much top 10 material even now. 3.5 could be a very interesting time for her.

3.5 can be good for her.

Wait were in 3.0. Sheik isn't definitelybad, but nope at top 10. Pretty much every top tier has guaranteed follow ups out of a certain move that sets up combos, KOs, all that good stuff. Mewtwo has tilts/up throw/fair. Sonic has spindash. Wolf has shine. Fox has shine. MK has down throw and up air and down air at times. Lucas has shine PK Magnet. Lucario has Extreme Speed (when cancelled with an aura charge) at the BARE MINIMUM (practically every move of his is a combo tool/KO setup lol).

What does Sheik rely on? Incorrect DI. Not guaranteed. She plays a guessing game, the tops get free follow ups.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I am a viable player, its not the character. I feel the same way about Fly playing DDD and Esam playing Samus.

Wtf samus is like a top ten character lol

 

[Roxas215]

3.5 can be good for her.

Wait were in 3.0. Sheik isn't definitelybad, but nope at top 10. Pretty much every top tier has guaranteed follow ups out of a certain move that sets up combos, KOs, all that good stuff. Mewtwo has tilts/up throw/fair. Sonic has spindash. Wolf has shine. Fox has shine. MK has down throw and up air and down air at times. Lucas has shine PK Magnet. Lucario has Extreme Speed (when cancelled with an aura charge) at the BARE MINIMUM (practically every move of his is a combo tool/KO setup lol).

What does Sheik rely on? Incorrect DI. Not guaranteed. She plays a guessing game, the tops get free follow ups.

I completely agree. Sheik strives on your opponent playing the mu wrong. When u don't know hoe to di sheik looks amazing. When u do you see thr flaws in the character. Zss is the same way to an extent. (Both of them are my mains. Cries!!!!)