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Tier List Speculation

Mr.Random

Smash Ace
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Tallahassee Florida
You know despite a few characters I think Project M is a pretty balanced game. But naturally one character's kit will always be stronger than another's. Perfect balance is impossible and to be honest boring too. So I've always liked the idea of the PMBR just making characters viable.
 

PlateProp

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Thats exactly why every time someone asks me for tips against a certain character that can use items, one of the first things I tell them is to learn to catch *said item*. If you're good enough with it, it almost becomes useless.
You dont know how to catch items til you can consistently catch Diddy's peanuts out of the air :troll:
 

Frost | Odds

Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
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Bowser's jumpsquat and/or wavedash being less godawful would make all the difference in the world.

He'd go from being a potato, to a potato with wheels.

I dream of being able to waveland around like Ganon. In my especially fevered moments, I imagine having the ability to punish mistakes with short hopped aerials, then awake from my stupor with eyes full of tears
 
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Mr.Random

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Bowser's jumpsquat and/or wavedash being less godawful would make all the difference in the world.

He'd go from being a potato, to a potato with wheels.

I dream of being able to waveland around like Ganon.
I think both Ganon and Bowser need this. In their respective universes they aren't stiff and slow as ****. Hell Ganon can hover and summon energy balls in his games, has a sword, uses dark energy. Smash 4 got Bowser right. He feels pretty good and fluid.
 

Frost | Odds

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It might actually hurt ganon players if his jumpsquat were changed- perfect wavelanding is a pretty precise thing, and Ganon's pretty dependent on it.
 

CORY

wut
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jumpsquat wouldn't change perfect waveland. you land from a jump for said tech, so the jumpsquat isn't an issue in it at all. wavedashing would be affected, but in a positive way, since you could start it a few frames sooner.

and then you could start aerials slightly sooner, in general. so on so on. overall, net positive.

however, he'd get more mileage out of having a not **** grab range. it needs to be slightly larger, both lower and further out. as is, it makes a lot of attacks pretty much completely safe on his shield. i.e. mario's dash attack is too low to be grabbed, but by the time he stands up, he can get away before you can grab him. ganon's jump squat and the time it takes his aerials to come out means that you can't always punish stuff, since you also need to take into account the time for the move to hit low.

if he just had a not **** grab range, you could fix a lot of those issues with just one change, rather than adjusting jump squat, fall speed, attack timings, and hitboxes. (not that i would be adverse to adjusting his jump squat faster, it just wouldn't be as useful a change for him).
 

Phan7om

ドリームランドの悪夢
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You dont know how to catch items til you can consistently catch Diddy's peanuts out of the air :troll:
You make it sound like thats impossible lol, its not much harder than catching other items characters throw at you. Im not talking about wavelanding either.
 

PlateProp

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You make it sound like thats impossible lol, its not much harder than catching other items characters throw at you. Im not talking about wavelanding either.
I didnt make it sound like it was impossible at all.

On the contrary, it's pretty easy once you figure out at what point you need to air dodge to actually catch it when it passes you
 

Mr.Random

Smash Ace
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jumpsquat wouldn't change perfect waveland. you land from a jump for said tech, so the jumpsquat isn't an issue in it at all. wavedashing would be affected, but in a positive way, since you could start it a few frames sooner.

and then you could start aerials slightly sooner, in general. so on so on. overall, net positive.

however, he'd get more mileage out of having a not **** grab range. it needs to be slightly larger, both lower and further out. as is, it makes a lot of attacks pretty much completely safe on his shield. i.e. mario's dash attack is too low to be grabbed, but by the time he stands up, he can get away before you can grab him. ganon's jump squat and the time it takes his aerials to come out means that you can't always punish stuff, since you also need to take into account the time for the move to hit low.

if he just had a not **** grab range, you could fix a lot of those issues with just one change, rather than adjusting jump squat, fall speed, attack timings, and hitboxes. (not that i would be adverse to adjusting his jump squat faster, it just wouldn't be as useful a change for him).
Doesn't he have some of the best throws in the game? Forward and back for edge guards and up and down for combos? Better grab would be awesome. He has long ass arms. Dat Fair.
 

Ace55

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Doesn't he have some of the best throws in the game? Forward and back for edge guards and up and down for combos?
Forward throw is pretty ****ty and back and up throw are nothing special. Dthrow however is probably the best throw in the game.
 

GP&B

Ike 'n' Ike
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If Ganon's grab range were to get buffed (and it should; his arms could easily achieve Marth range), good chances are his throws should be altered as well.
 

1FD

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RUINING EVERYTHING WITH EVERYBODY ELSE
A cool new option Spacies got is using Side B onstage (usually immediately after jumping), and grabbing the edge backwards right before they go into freefall. I'm still waiting for the day that they take advantage of RAR.
ON MAN
Falco
Reflects my charged aura sphere
I try to approach behind with jump into Down B or something
Spiked into floor
AS hits me off stage
Spiked by Falco Dair off ledge
First time playing PM with bamesy
**** my life

I-AGT a peanut while recovering.


Diddys be thinking they can harass with peanuts.
lol nice

Imma try that every time now
Probably gonna kill me lots but worth
**** my life for a while tho

I got back just in time to see the 3.5 debug update.

**** my life is good
 

DMG

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DMG#931
No, his Dthrow is showing

AND IT'S BROKEN!

Edit: Ganon deserves a lower grabbing box. Same with Falcon. I wholly support them getting viable options against the very short/low characters. If you don't buff their grabs, then you'd have to get real funky with their tilts to handle them. Just make their grabs not totally suck: who cares if someone like Marth can't grab a ducking Jiggs/Kirby/G^W/etc? Maybe he doesn't need it but holy **** Ganon and Falcon do.
 
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DMG

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DMG#931
The only people that can't iirc are certain tether ones, besides near the base of their hands/body (so Link's hookshot will not grab aerial opponents near the tip/middle of the chain for example). I know they tried to cut down on that for Link's CG at least.

That's partially why shield grabbing with Link and Ivy can be pretty bad: they tend to lose if the opponent jumps quickly after they hit shield/closed the gap.
 
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Oracle

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Dallas, TX
If it wasnt changed since 2.6, ivy actually has a really tall grab box so people cant jump over it. Link and tl are the only ones that cant grab out of the air
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
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Oracle: I think her dash grab at least no longer grabs the air. not sure.

Link & TL can grab out of the air with the grabbox that's on their hand.
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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I have an argument with the PM online ladder people.

they are the only people I have ever seen to not have stage bans stay for an entire set.

what I mean is that if you ban FD and lose, you could pick FD on your cp assuming they don't ban it also. what are your thoughts on this matter?>
 

MLGF

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
1,922
...I think I may actually want to do this now. I mean, why not? If 3.0 is ending, I might as well throw my scrubby bone.

I think the only characters you can solo main are top and high BTW and even high I'm iffy on. I do believe everyone here is viable, but duel maining becomes more important the lower tier your main is.

Top:
:mewtwopm::pit::sonic:
High
:fox::metaknight::mario2::marth::lucas::falco::diddy::wolf:
MidHigh
:link2::charizard:('s nair):snake::lucario::dk2::ivysaur::sheilda:
Mid:
:samus2::gw::pikachu2::yoshi2::squirtle::kirby2::ike::zerosuitsamus::warioc::falcon:
MidLow
:dedede::rob::peach::sheik::roypm:
Low
:ness2::toonlink::luigi2::zelda:
Bottom:
:bowser2::jigglypuff::ganondorf:


I dunno
:olimar::popo:


AND NOW TINY SCRUBBY BLURB BECAUSE I'M BORED!
Top:
Mewtwo's got some crazy spacing prowess and is incredibly safe. The combo of range and safe pressure/movement options makes him an easy pick for best in the game
Pit has AUTO COMBO AUTO COMBO ARROW ARROW ARROW! Nah, but really Pit just has a lot of great hit confirms off of... a lot of things. Honestly he doesn't seem broken in practice, he's just someone who excels in a lot of areas like Mewtwo.
Sonic has a crazy ground game, a super good recovery, and an incredibly good gimping game. I think I may be selling him short with just 3rd TBH. He's just so fast that he can cancel a bad option into somethign else easily, he's just frustrating and annoying to play.

High:
Fox is Fox. Kill everyone and gets killed by a grab by anyone. GG.
Meta Knight is like Sonic, but he can't run around making the match a game of "WHERE IS SONIC RUNNING TO NEXT?". He's also very light so his insane recovery doesn't seem as godlike. He has good disjoiunts sure, but he struggles in anyone who outranges him and has decent speed. I may be selling him short, but he's still extremely good with great spacing tools, good techases, and surprisingly reliable kill moves.
Mario is like Fox actually. Excels in everything and has a solid tool. Trade some glass canon stuff for some defensive fireballs and you're golden.
Marth is still extremely good and I feel still has some of the best matchups against PM newcomers in the Melee tops. Good disjoints and a solid ground games never hurt. Add that with a safer dair making off stage better for the man and I feel has has potential to be one of the best still.
Lucas is also like Fox. That seems to be a trend in this tier. He doesn't get combo'd to death and has a good recovery, but he doesn't excel in the neutral too well. If a tradeoff I feel bites him and he has a lot of trouble against anyone with a sword. Still great however.
Falco is still Falco. Lasers and killed by anyone. GG.
Diddy is great, I just don't particularly think anyone knows how to play against him yet so I'm leaving him in this spot. Really good and everything how, feels like an offensive Peach with his item game. The barrel misfire is frustrating however.
Wolf is the weakest of the spacies, likely because he doesn't have any of the OP jank stuff. He's still great and feels like a great inbetween of the other two. Really fun, like crazy fun. He's like a spacy who SD's like a Falcon. I know fun has no meaing in tiers, but damn he's fun.

MidHigh:
Link get's wrecked by anyone who can out maneuver his boomerang. So Meta Knight soup. NEXT
Charizard's Nair is the most well rounded tool ever. I swear, it's a great spacing, edgehogging, and punishing tool. It might as well also be a recovery as the Nair is godly.
Snake is good, has a lot of good tools and strong kill options. Stickies and everything rock. Still get wrecked by anyone who is decently fast due to his poor mobility options.
Lucario is really underrated. With meter he's able to make his recovery incredibly safe and that's all you should use meter for anyways. I think his poor neutral isn't as bad as we imagine, I hope this guy gets more use soon.
Strongbad said it right. DK wins any matchup where there's no projectiles involved. I think he's really solid and proves how viable the heavyweights can be. Great pick for sure, just be wary.
Ivy is the defensive character of PM. Great spacing tools, great projectiles, great recovery. It's a good combo weight and has difficulty once the opponent is in, so Ivy has to always be on the defensive.
Shielda is only really decent when you use both even. PM is matchup based and there's a great advantage has both of these characters under your belt. Take one out and you're left with a mediocrity however.

Mid:
Samus has a safe recovery and a good projectile game. She's like Ivy actually, except I feel her tools to keep away aren't that good, and she lacks a good "GET OFF ME" move.
G&W is weird. Every time I play him, he's so much better then I feel he is. That's weird to say. Anyways, he has great disjoints and killed mixed with a strange mixup game, not bad honestly.
Pikachu may be better, haven't seen anyone touch the mouse. Tiny disjoints make it hard to imagine however. Keeping em mid for now.
Yoshi is underrated. The super armor mixed with good kill moves and jumping out of shield make him great. As soon a parry is fixed, we'll see an influx, stubborn Melee Yoshi's >_<
Squirtle is incredibly fast but has predictable kill moves. Honestly I feel like he has all the right tools, but no one uses them correctly. Hopefully we'll see more well rounded Squirtles in the future rather then withdraw spam.
Kirby... err... Chudat. Nuff said.
Ike is solid. Good hit confirms, nice stuff off of grab. Can go surprisingly deep. I just think his weakness to fast pressure is too much for him however, poor guy just can't handle it. Still a great offensive beast. Probably sellling my main short because I'm horribly biased
Zamus feels like a weaker Marth with better disjoints. I dunno, I'm not too keen on her, she just seems lacking in good offensive options.
Wario is a great trickster with some great options both on stage and offstage. His disjoints size, or lack therof, is his biggest problem and it's a significant. Still, his playstyle is something to behold.
Falcon is still decent. The small buffs he has gotten makes him surprisingly good. He just gets techchased and taken out too easily. Still has a wonderful punish game and good mobility.

Midlow:
DDD has a good disjoint and recovery. I feel he has little approach options once you know the matchup however and that's wicked important considering his size.
ROB just feels... off. He's really reliant on his B moves for mobility, but I feel his size combined with his slower moves makes him difficult. He feels like a defensive character with a mobility game, he's really cool to watch but I don't think he's going to be breaking any boundaries.
Peach just doesn't do well against a lot of the new PM characters. Simple as that, we know why she's good, but she just isn't going to pull it out.
Sheik just is outdone by quite a few characters now. It feels out of all the Melee tops, she's just no pulling it out.
Roy dies at 20% next!

Low:
Ness has tiny disjoints and a super punishable recovery. PK fire though.
Tink dies at 20%, or to a shine. He lacks tools to keep the opponent away as well.
Luigi is just... too floaty for what his moves are. They don't mesh well I think.
Zelda is incredibly punishable by anything with a disjoint and has a bait reliant playstyle. Her teleport game seems underdeveloped so I hope that becomes something eventually :)

Bottom:
Bowser was thought to be great, then we figured out how to fight him. I think now that he's figured out, he's somewhat able to be brushed aside
Jigglypuff... poor Hungrybox. Poor, poor, poor Hungrybox.
Ganondorf is Falcon with the same punish game and worse mobility all the way around. I feel like talking about him is beating a dead horse.
 
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Strong Badam

Super Elite
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I have an argument with the PM online ladder people.

they are the only people I have ever seen to not have stage bans stay for an entire set.

what I mean is that if you ban FD and lose, you could pick FD on your cp assuming they don't ban it also. what are your thoughts on this matter?>
yes, I disagree with that.

However I think in a bo5 set you should be able to change your bans if you win a 2nd game.
 

PandaPanda Senketsu

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Apr 30, 2014
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I have an argument with the PM online ladder people.

they are the only people I have ever seen to not have stage bans stay for an entire set.

what I mean is that if you ban FD and lose, you could pick FD on your cp assuming they don't ban it also. what are your thoughts on this matter?>
SO YOU WERE THE DDD RIPPLE AND NOT SOME RANDOM!!!!!!!!

I KNEW IT!!!!!!!!
 
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CORY

wut
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dallas area
Forward throw is pretty ****ty and back and up throw are nothing special. Dthrow however is probably the best throw in the game.
it's really good, yeah. his f/bthrow are only used if you'd rather get them offstage, and even then you might want to just dthrow-followup instead.
If Ganon's grab range were to get buffed (and it should; his arms could easily achieve Marth range), good chances are his throws should be altered as well.
mario, tho.

he doesn't need obscene marth grab range, he just needs to actually have a viable grab range. ganon can jab another ganon's shield and be ungrabbable, without even using the max spacing on jab. and more importantly, that whole bit about attacks being safe on his shield because he can't even grab them in their endlag.
 

Plum

Has never eaten a plum.
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it's really good, yeah. his f/bthrow are only used if you'd rather get them offstage, and even then you might want to just dthrow-followup instead.
Yeah, who needs F/Bthrow when Dthrow leads into mighty fists.
 
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