Tier List Speculation

[Resyndicated]

Someone told me that they found a Pichu icon in the project m files and that it was the pmdt's way of confirming Pichu.

And they didn't realize it was simply an Easter egg just by checking said thread about them?

 

[Zx2963]

Increasing KB on back throw, and buffing his dash attack and maybe jab already makes him much better

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Nah man I can't agree, changing Pikachu to make him more brainless would be bad game design. If someone doesn't want to put in the time and effort to learn the character than so be it.

And people always say that's pikachu only seems good because he is played by good players, but I don't buy it at all. You can pull that excuse up for like every character. I think the best thing they can do is fix his grabs, dash attack, and maybe extend his grab range.

What I don't want to see is a spammy, cheap projectile, mindlessly easy combo's, and a bunch of other dumb buffs.

That is exactly what I mean by "make more brainless". Right now dash attack is 95% of the time an attack that basically says "I am a stupid noob punish me hard". Few characters have as many moves that are as situational and easy to punish if you throw it out at a slightly bad time. It's good that thunderjolt and thunder are like that, but his dash attack is toooo terrible for a move with basically no significant reward on hit anyways. Better grab range is the other huge thing that would help pika be more threatening and less kind of ****.

Also my point wasn't that he seems good because he's played by good players. My point was that he's played by exceptionally skilled players and STILL only seems pretty okay. I've watched Axe and Anther play quite a bit and even though I feel like they outplay their opponents almost every time based on reads and insane tech skill, they lose a lot and it seems like the character is letting them down, not vice-versa. Pika has some ****ing brutal matchups and doesn't really get the kind of reward from difficult QAC approaches and combos that characters like Marth or Sheik get for just running up and doing a CC something or other or landing a grab with their (respectable) grab ranges.

 

[Mr.Random]

Even though melee shine is a cool move, its also the most unfair single move to exist in any smash game, lol. Itd be cool if it worked like it did in 64 or some other smash game, but I guess a lot of peeps would be unhappy about that.

Mango mentioned making it do 0 damage which is a good change imo. It's more of a set up move. It doesn't need to do damage. Same for Falco's shine.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

ez

yes?

 

[Mr.Random]

yes?

YES!

 

[Bazkip]

yes?

I was planning on tagging you in that post but then you went ahead and changed your name and ruined everything :<

In other news we're kinda getting off topic.
Let's talk about uh...Peach? Never really heard much discussion about her in PM.

My impression is that while she's still very solid, the crazy recoveries kinda make some of her strong points moot. So basically, she'll be relevant again in 3.5

 

[DMG]

Onstage power creep is also worrisome for Peach. Bigger swords, better projectiles, faster characters, etc are not great for her.

 

[steelguttey]

yea. on of her main strengths in melee is having an item game but now everyone and their mother has one and hers is beat out by everyone else's so its hard for her. shes solid mid tier but not as good as she was in melee.

 

[shairn]

I think she's still relevant. Her gimping ability is almost as good as Mewtwo's, although she doesn't exactly shine onstage.
I don't see any need for changes to her yet though, it'd be better to change other characters and see how she does then.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

what do you mean everyone has item game

link, toon link, rob, peach, and diddy have item games

that's less than an eighth of the cast

 

[KayB]

what do you mean everyone has item game

link, toon link, rob, peach, and diddy have item games

that's less than an eighth of the cast

If you play against a character that uses items, wouldn't that technically mean that you can have an item game? Especially in ZSS' case vs Diddy with her godly glide toss.

 

[steelguttey]

what do you mean everyone has item game

link, toon link, rob, peach, and diddy have item games

that's less than an eighth of the cast

basically what kay-b said. i meant that everyone has a ridiculous glide-toss and agt (not a bad thing exactly) and hers isnt as good as say squirtle's

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

lol hydrotossing is legit

anywho, I see , I misinterpreted what you meant

tons of characters can effectively counter items now, so yer right about that

you're right that peach's item game just isn't as good because of this

i don't really know how to balance this

she's got some pretty good agt to compensate at least

 

[Mr.Random]

I still think Falco is best character in this game. Besides his recovery what about him is bad? Being combo'd doesn't count I just mean in terms of design.

 

[DMG]

>Falco

>Isn't Mewtwo

 

[trash?]

diddy, in the current version, is like a beefed up peach tbh

you can get TWO items off of your downb. AND they stay on the ground so people can trip on it. AND you have another projectile on top of that. A N D your recovery goes even further. (the variety of it is easily dismissed by the fact that RNG can save any "predictable" edgeguarding, so he doesn't even have that against him)

A
N
D

you have actual killing power instead of needing to rely on edgeguards, because everything you do converts into fair

peach has notable flaws, diddy's notable flaw is "is not as power-creep heavy as the other power-creep top tiers"

 

[Paradoxium]

I still think Falco is best character in this game. Besides his recovery what about him is bad? Being combo'd doesn't count I just mean in terms of design.

Have you seen the range on Falco's recovery? it's pitiful. Plus a lot of characters have moves that send you far, so the basic strategy is throw him over the ledge. Most of the time he won't be coming back. But he has a crazy onstage game tho.

 

[Mr.Random]

Have you seen the range on Falco's recovery? it's pitiful. Plus a lot of characters have moves that send you far, so the basic strategy is throw him over the ledge. Most of the time he won't be coming back. But he has a crazy onstage game tho.

Besides that everything else is amazing. That's why I feel he's the best

 

[steelguttey]

if you ever say "besides that" in a nargument to convince people that your character is the best youre probably wrong

 

[KayB]

Falco's grab game isn't that great. Falco is a high risk/high reward character, and even more so in PM where everyone can take a bite off of him.

 

[skellitorman]

diddy, in the current version, is like a beefed up peach tbh

you can get TWO items off of your downb. AND they stay on the ground so people can trip on it. AND you have another projectile on top of that.

The banana also travels significantly faster and farther than Peach's projectile. Getting hit by the banana is also far more rewarding for Diddy.

 

[DMG]

Some of Falco's throws feel off in PM (Uthrow and Bthrow). I don't know if it's release points, how the lasers work, or how easy you can ASDI/SDI the lasers, but Uthrow in particular doesn't feel as shiggity.


A cool new option Spacies got is using Side B onstage (usually immediately after jumping), and grabbing the edge backwards right before they go into freefall. I'm still waiting for the day that they take advantage of RAR.

 

[trash?]

I'm still waiting on a falco player to acknowledge that DACUS and gatling combos exist

god forbid the kind of person who plays falco should learn new execution-heavy techskill, but y'know

 

[steelguttey]

his gatling combo isnt even good tho. his dash attack doesnt lead to his usmash like g dubs unless youre at really low percent and then its much better to just do a pillar combo anyway. gatling combos are good for easy punishes into usmash or combo finishes and falco's doesnt do either.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I feel like being able to pick up and catch items with wavedashes significantly reduces the threat of Peach's turnips.

Example:
http://youtu.be/8vEdu98_zM8?t=7m35s

 

[GP&B]

I sincerely feel like non-AGT character users don't practice AGT/wavedash item grabs enough or at all. It's easy with practice and really helps nullify some of the more dangerous projectiles like Tink's bombs and Diddy's bananas. Not that these two particular characters can't mix it up, but it definitely helps.

 

[Phan7om]

Thats exactly why every time someone asks me for tips against a certain character that can use items, one of the first things I tell them is to learn to catch *said item*. If you're good enough with it, it almost becomes useless.

 

[DMG]

See guys, nerf Link. You can't grab his Boomerang.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Nerf ROB, item throw forward throws gyro frame 7, it's too fast to react to anywhere close.

 

[DMG]

I start throwing out wild attacks whenever ROB has a gyro in hand


Not because it's some optimal strategy, but because I hope it freaks them out and they throw it away in confusion


Number of times this masterful plan has succeeded: That's not really important, now is it

 

[Circle_Breaker]

I really hope Mario gets made less mindless. For example cape hitbox not lasting as long - such an easy edgeguard on some characters. I'd even be okay with a slightly bigger cape if it active frames were like halved (and its stalling properties nerfed slightly). Chain dthrows not being guaranteed on as many characters would make me happy. Maybe fireballs have higher hitstun but are less spammable/more punishable.

At the same time as a viewer I love seeing M2K or whoever punish the **** out of someone with a long ass chainthrow so I'm conflicted on that point. I don't really agree with the idea that the possibility of being put into a position with absolutely no options is bad game design. Some of my favorite fighting games include infinites and watching the meta develop around that is really interesting and I personally find it more hype than anything (MvC2 is awesome to watch IMO, same with wobbling ICs in melee). Unpopular opinion I know. Everyone's always pushing for more interactivity. But the threat of an infinite or at least long chaingrabs makes the interactivity in the neutral game so much more interesting and intense because of the stakes. High execution is a good barrier to keep though, cause even at the highest level of play everyone drops combos sometimes and that keeps it fresh.

 

[DMG]

Mario's Dthrow is "worse" in PM than Melee. They gave it higher scaling so that people could escape the CG sooner: same with Ganondorf iirc. They already partially addressed some of those "lulz" CGs

It's still really good obviously, but they are definitely aware of how unfun those throws can be and usually closely watch them

 

[victinivcreate1]

Mario's Dthrow is "worse" in PM than Melee. They gave it higher scaling so that people could escape the CG sooner: same with Ganondorf iirc. They already partially addressed some of those "lulz" CGs

It's still really good obviously, but they are definitely aware of how unfun those throws can be and usually closely watch them

Any word on Pit?

 

[Bleck]

god forbid the kind of person who plays falco should learn new execution-heavy techskill, but y'know

SHOTS FIRED

 

[Mr.Random]

I'm still waiting on a falco player to acknowledge that DACUS and gatling combos exist

god forbid the kind of person who plays falco should learn new execution-heavy techskill, but y'know

RAR is honestly a godsend for Falco since he can actually do NEW combos with it. I think the gatling combo though kinda sucks though due to up smash being weaker than Brawl's. Dash attack shine/uptilt is usually the better option.

 

[DMG]

Dash attack into holy batman Dair is my preferred way to shame someone

 

[Mr.Random]

Mario's Dthrow is "worse" in PM than Melee. They gave it higher scaling so that people could escape the CG sooner: same with Ganondorf iirc. They already partially addressed some of those "lulz" CGs

It's still really good obviously, but they are definitely aware of how unfun those throws can be and usually closely watch them

It's honestly better in PM since the higher scaling makes it easier to space your fair finisher or up air combos. Plus even if Mario wasn't good in Melee the 70% chaingrabs he had on certain character weren't fair at all like you said.

 

[Vino.]

Falco is a good character, but he's still so melee. His grab range is iffy, and terrible recovery. Good for melee, but not for PM.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

What did the PMBR say about CG exactly?