Tier List Speculation

[mimgrim]

Bowser Bomb works correctly on platforms actually, it just more difficult to time correctly as if you time it wrong you will fall through the platform which is how it gets read as an aerial Bowser Bomb.

I have no idea how if it could even be made easier.

 

[Frost | Odds]

In principle I'm ok with a total bowser overhaul

but it would suck relearning him.

 

[Liquid Brick]

If they fix the problem where Down-B's on platforms act as aerials instead of grounded specials then Bowsers Down+B+Up Cancel is incredible. Bowser imo is very powerful where he is, he lives extremely long, has an U-Air that is godlike, has a mid-air grab, and on top of that and much more he has super armour...
Insane!

...what? I don't follow, but are you falling through the platform when you input Down-B? You're pressing down for too long probably, because you should be able to Down-B on a plat like normal lol

 

[McD]

...what? I don't follow, but are you falling through the platform when you input Down-B? You're pressing down for too long probably, because you should be able to Down-B on a plat like normal lol

Not falling through, but that is a possibility. Essentially (as a falcon player who sees this happen to others with certain Down+b's) when hitting down b the character will do an Arial down b directly above the platform. I watched a great bowser suffer from this the other day. He had some incredible plays but was getting very frustrated when this happened to him.

I'll keep in mind for the future though that this may not be a game error but a user error of holding down too long
thanks all

 

[mimgrim]

Not falling through, but that is a possibility. Essentially (as a falcon player who sees this happen to others with certain Down+b's) when hitting down b the character will do an Arial down b directly above the platform. I watched a great bowser suffer from this the other day. He had some incredible plays but was getting very frustrated when this happened to him.

It's a technical error on the players part. They mistimed it and ended up falling through the platform trying to do the Down Special.

 

[Seagull Joe]

's problem will always be that he's slow and fat. No amount of changes can circumvent that unless they re-make him as a character entirely.

 

[Frost | Odds]

's problem will always be that he's slow and fat. No amount of changes can circumvent that unless they re-make him as a character entirely.

No, his problem is that he's too cute

 

[InfinityCollision]

His problem is clearly a dire lack of intangible fireballs.

 

[Bleck]

's problem will always be that he's slow and fat. No amount of changes can circumvent that unless they re-make him as a character entirely.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - just make Bowser faster.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd be interested in seeing what the PMBR could come up with for a faster Bowser design a la Smash 4. I'm not necessarily saying that's the right direction to go in for PM Bowser, but I'm still curious.

 

[1FD]

It is in no way his second best move. No way in hell. Ftilt, Fair, Bair, dash attack, and Dtilt are all better.

JAB THOUGH
JAB MY FAVE MOVE EVER

Ugh. Wario's tilts are slllllloooww. Idk if Wario was meant to be played as an aerial character, but his ground game has the potential to be better. Speed up his tilts, give dsmash more range. I'm probably just playing him wrong trying to combo into an ftilt/fsamsh from his dash or dtilt, but Wario could be better.

His Tilts might be slow but they're gaudamnbeastmofotilts
Mix an ftilt in the middle of your dtilt/fair/nair/dair/bite/dacus/grab/dasha pressure and that delay ****s the **** out of people and ****ing the **** out of people is a great way to get those Bite mixups that lead to waft kills every 30 seconds.

I actually think taking away his shadow ball or making it only usable fully charged or something would be an interesting nerf. I think his movement options are really interesting, and if they have be nerfed to fix the character, so be it. But if nerfing or even removing shadow ball would do it, I'd prefer that.

I also think an up air nerf would be pretty reasonable.

I just started taking Mewtwo more seriously lately, so I do have a bias for wanting to keep him somewhat intact. That said I also personally think he's top 3 or 4.

I'm not really following the meta but the first time I played bamesy was with Wario against his Mewtwo
First stock was basically he clipped me with a HC Nair which does that thing where you don't go anywhere when he lands during the Nair AKA FREE GRAB FOR MEWTWO CAUSE IT'S STUPID
Then he 0-deathed me with literally just Uairs
HC Uairs, DJC Uairs, Uairs in Hovers and TPs across the stage, then hit me with Down B TO KILL ME OFF THE SIDE in like 10 seconds into the match

I still don't know how the **** to get out of that stuff with ANY ****ING CHARACTER cause Uair can hit you in SO many different ways that Mewtwo has complete control over.
NO MATTER WHICH WAY YOU TRY TO MIX UP YOUR DI your STILL gonna get hit by either a charged Shadow Ball for the kill, or his ridic set-knock-back-instant-kill-on-anyone Down B off a Hover Uair > Follow with Hover Down B when you're even a body length off stage AT ALL lol
So cool, but it was January when he did this WHEN MEWTWO FIRST CAME OUT and I last played him in like May and I STILL don't know how to get out even after he explains my options and the specifics of Mewtwos Uairs and crap.
If that's in the common meta now than that's badass BECAUSE MEWTWO IS BADASS
But my god he's a good char









HINT TO THE PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT BOWSER DOWNB THROUGH PLATS
It's just like with Falco doing combos on to platforms. With him it's easy because you can Dair onto the platform > Hold Down when you land > B to get the shine and you're certain you'll do a grounded hop/can Shinegrab/do whatever out.
With Bowser, just hold down after whatever action you take to LAND on the platform. Even during techs if I want to Dtilt/DownB on a platform immediately, just hold down as soon as you're standing up/before an action can come out.
It's like the way a lot of desynching type stuff works with ICs but you do it with buffering your stuff. Like buffering C-Stick to roll after an aerial/other action when as soon as it's happening you realize it's unsafe. Just buffer the part of the move (the DOWN part) so you don't mess up.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Mewtwo's nerfs should be
Nair does half the shield damage and there are 6-8 frames between the 8th and 9th hit, allowing easy shieldgrabs.

Make his tail identical in Melee range, hurtboxes on all parts of tail.

Nerf weight to 90. No more crazy CCs.

However, do not remove his playstyle. Remove the things that along with his playstyle broken.

@ 1FD I'm not sure what to think of you as a player if a guy actually explained your options and you're still getting bodied by Mewtwo. I got bodied by a Mewtwo once. A guy explained me the options to beat his juggles and such, and the game was much closer.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I also like what Armada was saying: "Don't balance by removing everyone's weaknesses, but by giving everyone a weakness". If all characters are basically "allrounders" they lose what makes them special. Also some depth of the game gets lost when no one has a weakness because the meta around exposing that weakness while covering the own weakness is much deeper than if characters can play many different ways in any MU.
When I hear about giving more characters projectiles / better recoveries, that is contrary to this principle

 

[Deleted member]

Reduce the severity of a character's weaknesses = people complaining about everybody being boring all-rounders who are too good at everything.

Amplify a character's weakness and compensating by making their strengths more apparent = people complaining about polarization.

Amplify a character's weakness without making their strengths more apparent = people complaining that the character is now low tier trash.

There is no winning.

 

[Vashimus]

Tough ****. You can't win everything.

 

[ELI-mination]

Unless you're Fox

Ugh there goes Eli again

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Reduce the severity of a character's weaknesses = people complaining about everybody being boring all-rounders who are too good at everything.

Amplify a character's weakness and compensating by making their strengths more apparent = people complaining about polarization.

Amplify a character's weakness without making their strengths more apparent = people complaining that the character is now low tier trash.

There is no winning.

Why all u do is complain/talk about complainers. Get a new hobbie, sloot

 

[Deleted member]

Why all u do is complain/talk about complainers. Get a new hobbie, sloot

Don't read my posts if the truth hurts too much

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@SmasFromThePast 's post has some truth, although I think there is a good inbetween which is slightly less polarized than Melee, but more polarized than the current PM.

But from what I am hearing things are on a good way I never lost faith in the PMBR

 

[Deleted member]

Oh of course I have faith that the PMBR will eventually find the right balance. I'm just reporting what I've seen throughout my time on these forums. I find it funny more than anything.

 

[Rᴏb]

Polarization isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the current Bowser design is polarizing in a way that makes him suck.

Just take some inspiration from Smash 4 Bowser's model + animations and Little Mac's ground game + armor and he could totally still be polarizing in a way that is fun and good.

 

[Zx2963]

Bowsers not so bad in mid to low skill play, at the moment Bowser seems pretty balanced, maybe though they should increase his attack speed a bit and switch to his standard neutral B, its useless and easily SDI'd

 

[steelguttey]

bowser needs a way to keep his archetype. the way he plays optimally right now is when people have no projectiles and approach him with unsafe things that he plows through. projectiles prevent him from doing this. he doesnt need a projectile right now, he needs something against projectiles, maybe a system like g&w's bucket where he stores proejctiles then the more he has the more powerful his things are? idk

 

[Oracle]

bowser needs to throw hammers like in super mario

 

[mood4food77]

just make it so he can walk through weak projectiles (like falco's lasers) and not strong ones (like fully charged aura spheres, shadow balls, and charge shots)

bowser problems are fixed

 

[Rᴏb]

That wouldn't do ****

 

[PlateProp]

bowser needs to throw hammers like in super mario

Bowser needs a charging move to plow through projectiles

 

[Osennecho]

just make it so he can walk through weak projectiles (like falco's lasers) and not strong ones (like fully charged aura spheres, shadow balls, and charge shots)

bowser problems are fixed

So make him Bone Bowser and just pretend small projectiles go through his bones?

 

[mood4food77]

That wouldn't do ****

he'll be able to dash through falco's lasers completely, or pit's arrows, or other weak projectiles

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Lets not buff bowser's defense too much. Otherwise, he'll end up as a Giga Bowser. Plow through weak projectiles/attacks? BANNED!

 

[Comprehend13]

I would play a character like that

 

[JCOnyx]

What about giving him something like a 3rd Strike parry as a special (most likely neutral)? Or have him share Yoshi's parry technique once they figure out how to implement it.

 

[Zx2963]

His crouch already does it

Bowser needs a charging move to plow through projectiles

 

[1FD]

@ 1FD I'm not sure what to think of you as a player if a guy actually explained your options and you're still getting bodied by Mewtwo. I got bodied by a Mewtwo once. A guy explained me the options to beat his juggles and such, and the game was much closer.

It's not about getting bodied (though that does happen given the mewtwo i fight pwns pretty much everyone) I'm talking about how Mewtwo has ridic combos with that one move that almost always lead to an instant kill due to needing to get out of like 20 variations of the combo.
It's like Marth comboing into Dairs and UpBs but instead of basically DIing out of both with THE SAME DI getting you out of ALL trouble, Mewtwo can get you in trouble anywhere because his options are just that good.
Just UAIR WITH HOVER STUFF is just that good. lol


Leave Bowser alone and give him a projectile specific counter where if he uses down b to parry the projectile, he instantly makes the person explode and he spins.

Bowser, the last Fortress Bender

 

[NickRiddle]

How to make Bowser viable?
Make firebreath jump-cancellable, and make the bite hitbox come out even if he jumps.
0 landing > 0 ending > combo move.

Firebreath > Up-B.

You can thank me later.

 

[JCOnyx]

A special would let him use it in midair though which would be pretty sweet.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Just to keep the downwards spiral of this thread going I am going to question again why fox should be able to keep his "toxic" elements when everyone else gets nerfed. I'm not saying fox should be nerfed or that literally everyone else needs buffs, just that a few newcomers should be allowed to join him at his tippy top of the tier list with stupidly good options. As it stands this game is looking a lot like an opportunity for melee veterans to destroy new scores of opponents with fox, because whenever another character comes close to his level of theoretical dominance they get nerfed before they even prove to be practically dominant in tournament environments.

That's my view as a scrub but I'm welcome to people explaining how this is not the case. From a theorycraft point of view I don't see how fox is less than the best.

 

[Bazkip]

Clearly the only solution for balance is to replace everyone with Ganon.

 

[EmptySky00]

Because they've realized that intentionally making a character as good as Fox is heinous and consequently that Fox is stupid ****ing good.

I'm on the fence about him being nerfed. Objectively, he's unfair as ****.
But he's not the only character in the game anymore. He's far more beatable than he was before simply because there are more ways to approach the problem of hunting the ******* down.

If PMBR created Fox and he wasn't just a recreation of himself from Melee, he probably would have been nerfed. It's just a matter of altering principles.

 

[GP&B]

I absolutely don't think Fox should be free of nerfs if the other tops are inevitably getting adjustments. A big part of the current problem is that bad design elements meant to counter spacies (CGs or the way some moves are designed) only exist because spacies/Fox still remain top characters. Put Fox on a high tier level and all of a sudden, you don't need to put in dumb things to counter him.