Tier List Speculation

[DrinkingFood]

It was bottom tier until he didn't get it

 

[steelguttey]

are you really missing the joke?

holy ****ing ****

its also 230 am but

 

[Deleted member]

0 / 10

Grade F.

Do Not Pass Go Do Not Collect $200

 

[jtm94]

All someone had to say was that Kirby has sucked for a while now and left it at that.
Bad approaches lead to bad follow ups. We're playing smash here, not Whose Line is it Anyway.

What if all the Yoshi players are lifting weights waiting until post-patch to come out of hiding?
I feel similarly about the Ice Climbers.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

For Yoshi and ICs I absolutely agree, not so sure about Kirby though.

 

[InfinityCollision]

ICs should pretty much always be treated as secret high tiers until proven otherwise. IIRC there's actually at least one buff headed their way too if the PMBR can get things sorted out. Yoshi's still waiting to get parry back.

 

[Player -0]

A TON of IC tech is still being discovered. Give the IC's some time before a buff unless it's something like making Sopo's Up-B slightly faster so it's like melee.

 

[Phan7om]

If ICs got buffed, they would have to be nerfed in the future.

 

[victinivcreate1]

My list of nerfs and buffs for PM characters

Spoiler

General nerf
NO MORE AIRDODGE TETHER. BS mechanic.

Fox=No changes. People. 13 YEARS of experience on how to beat Fox! Fox was nerfed from Melee to PM! More characters can give him a hard time! Grow up, stop crying and actually learn the MU.

Falco=See Fox.

Wolf=No changes.

Mewtwo
Nerf weight to 90. No more CC down tilt into 70% combo
No Hover out of Teleport (actually this really isn't a nerf, because if they nerfed TP but not Hover and Nair, people would still complain so...)
Neutral air does half the shieldstun, and there is 8 frames between the 8th and 9th hit of nair so people can't Hover nair and break shields still. The 9th hit is the main shieldstabbing hitbox, so 8 frames between the last two hits allow easy shield grabs and Up B OoS options.
Melee range for his tail, hurtboxes on all parts of tail. No more disjointed BS.
No more ledgestall. Do any more than 5 and you'll miss the ledge, like how ledge stalling with Ike's Aether worked in Brawl.
BUFF: Allow Teleport to go through the platform you were standing on, like in Melee.

Mario=Make him 2.5. No crazy fireball buffs, no ridiculous up smash buffs, bye bye dthrow free follow ups. However KEEP DAT FAIR DONKEY PUNCH. I love that move lmao.

Lucas
Why the heck is he a space animal. Rework down B. Also remove DACUS. Doesn't need it. Already super mobile.

Sonic
Make Spin Dash unsafe on shield. Homing Attack does not give free follow ups, also sends you at a downwards angle when you try to recover with it. Up air KB nerf slightly.

Ganondorf
JC out of down B? Increase air speed.

Marth
Tipper bair is KO move like Brawl. KOs at 130.

Sheik
Melee clone. No changes. Sheik is iffy without her down throw.

Pit
Hit him out of Wings of Icarus, no jumps. Less stun on arrows. No more free follow ups from them. Down air laggier, less hitstun.

Squirtle
Make less dumb. Moves unsafe on shield. Up B has smaller attack hitbox.

Diddy Kong
1 banana. Screw two.
Everyone else, eh. They're fine. Just the top tiers were too strong.

Roy
Needs recovery move. Maybe two Side B stalls? A wall jump Up B?

 

[FreeGamer]

I don't see why Lucas needs a DACUS and a tether recovery and a kill throw on top of the pressure/mobility he already has. If you're going to make him a master of many trades, you may as well cut PK Freeze's startup in half.

 

[PlateProp]

My list of nerfs and buffs for PM characters

Spoiler

General nerf
NO MORE AIRDODGE TETHER. BS mechanic.

Fox=No changes. People. 13 YEARS of experience on how to beat Fox! Fox was nerfed from Melee to PM! More characters can give him a hard time! Grow up, stop crying and actually learn the MU.

Falco=See Fox.

Wolf=No changes.

Mewtwo
Nerf weight to 90. No more CC down tilt into 70% combo
No Hover out of Teleport (actually this really isn't a nerf, because if they nerfed TP but not Hover and Nair, people would still complain so...)
Neutral air does half the shieldstun, and there is 8 frames between the 8th and 9th hit of nair so people can't Hover nair and break shields still. The 9th hit is the main shieldstabbing hitbox, so 8 frames between the last two hits allow easy shield grabs and Up B OoS options.
Melee range for his tail, hurtboxes on all parts of tail. No more disjointed BS.
No more ledgestall. Do any more than 5 and you'll miss the ledge, like how ledge stalling with Ike's Aether worked in Brawl.
BUFF: Allow Teleport to go through the platform you were standing on, like in Melee.

Mario=Make him 2.5. No crazy fireball buffs, no ridiculous up smash buffs, bye bye dthrow free follow ups. However KEEP DAT FAIR DONKEY PUNCH. I love that move lmao.

Lucas
Why the heck is he a space animal. Rework down B. Also remove DACUS. Doesn't need it. Already super mobile.

Sonic
Make Spin Dash unsafe on shield. Homing Attack does not give free follow ups, also sends you at a downwards angle when you try to recover with it. Up air KB nerf slightly.

Ganondorf
JC out of down B? Increase air speed.

Marth
Tipper bair is KO move like Brawl. KOs at 130.

Sheik
Melee clone. No changes. Sheik is iffy without her down throw.

Pit
Hit him out of Wings of Icarus, no jumps. Less stun on arrows. No more free follow ups from them. Down air laggier, less hitstun.

Squirtle
Make less dumb. Moves unsafe on shield. Up B has smaller attack hitbox.

Diddy Kong
1 banana. Screw two.
Everyone else, eh. They're fine. Just the top tiers were too strong.

Roy
Needs recovery move. Maybe two Side B stalls? A wall jump Up B?

Anyone who thinks Squirtle's moveset is dumb doesnt know what they're talking about, or only play against nub Squirtles who withdraw spam and they cant handle it.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Anyone who thinks Squirtle's moveset is dumb doesnt know what they're talking about, or only play against nub Squirtles who withdraw spam and they cant handle it.

Squirtle's moveset is dumb.

Yes crouch cancel Side B blah blah. That option stops working once Squirtles start respecting it and stop spamming Withdraw. Withdraw is easy to beat on its own. After the option is used much more carefully, its a lot tougher.

 

[PlateProp]

Squirtle's moveset is dumb.

Yes crouch cancel Side B blah blah. That option stops working once Squirtles start respecting it and stop spamming Withdraw. Withdraw is easy to beat on its own. After the option is used much more carefully, its a lot tougher.

Ccing withdraw is stupid, you counter it with grabs.
Still an invalid argument

 

[InfinityCollision]

My thoughts in bold.

Spoiler

Mewtwo
Nerf weight to 90. No more CC down tilt into 70% combo
No Hover out of Teleport (actually this really isn't a nerf, because if they nerfed TP but not Hover and Nair, people would still complain so...)
Neutral air does half the shieldstun, and there is 8 frames between the 8th and 9th hit of nair so people can't Hover nair and break shields still. The 9th hit is the main shieldstabbing hitbox, so 8 frames between the last two hits allow easy shield grabs and Up B OoS options.
I'm of the opinion that these two in combination is excessive. If you keep telehover, nerfing nair like that only means that M2 should float cancel or back off before the final hitbox, preferably the former as the latter opens you to punishment. If you remove telehover, it becomes almost useless out of tele and not particularly useful otherwise either due to being unsafe and lacking in range.
Melee range for his tail, hurtboxes on all parts of tail. No more disjointed BS.
Haven't played Melee M2 in a bit, but I remember his range being really poor on most tail attacks. Probably an overnerf, especially on top of other changes.
No more ledgestall. Do any more than 5 and you'll miss the ledge, like how ledge stalling with Ike's Aether worked in Brawl.
I'm ambivalent to this.
BUFF: Allow Teleport to go through the platform you were standing on, like in Melee.
I would like to see this.

One change that you didn't directly mention: utilt/uair probably shouldn't chain as easily. Not sure how best to accomplish this without totally neutering his followups. Range nerfs accomplish this in a way, but not really in a good way.

That said, I'm guessing increased lag on tele is incoming. Several of these changes should be taken out of consideration if that's the case, as that alone makes his approach much less safe.

Mewtwo doesn't need a lot of changes, just a very limited number of small changes in the right places. He's good, but he's not god-tier.

Mario=Make him 2.5. No crazy fireball buffs, no ridiculous up smash buffs, bye bye dthrow free follow ups. However KEEP DAT FAIR DONKEY PUNCH. I love that move lmao.
Fireball + dthrow nerfs yes, ambivalent to usmash. If anything else changed, I'd prefer to make his combos less automatic.

Lucas
Why the heck is he a space animal. Rework down B. Also remove DACUS. Doesn't need it. Already super mobile.
I'm okay-ish with the DACUS, but I'd like to see tether grab's duration dropped a bit.

Marth
Tipper bair is KO move like Brawl. KOs at 130.
I honestly don't think he needs this. Marth is solid as is and bringing some of the top tier characters down to size will improve his matchups.

Sheik
Melee clone. No changes. Sheik is iffy without her down throw.
Sheik is fine where she is. Pretty sure the reasons NTSC dthrow shouldn't be a thing come up at least once a week in this thread.

Pit
Hit him out of Wings of Icarus, no jumps. Less stun on arrows. No more free follow ups from them. Down air laggier, less hitstun.
Arrows yes, dair maybe, chainthrow needs to go.

Squirtle
Make less dumb. Moves unsafe on shield. Up B has smaller attack hitbox.
I think he's fine, but it's not a matchup I have extensive experience in. I don't see any reason to nerf upb.

Diddy Kong
1 banana. Screw two.
Naners are fine. Kill the misfire barrel on upb.

Roy
Needs recovery move. Maybe two Side B stalls? A wall jump Up B?
I feel like Roy's actually pretty okay despite the weak recovery and combo fodder weight/fall speed. Any changes here should be really small, and I don't think either of these ideas actually have significant functional benefit for him.

 

[Bleck]

Says that airdodge tether is a 'bs mechanic', then proceeds to say that Fox is fine.

Yeah, I don't think that I need to read the rest of this.

 

[EmptySky00]

My list of nerfs and buffs for PM characters

Spoiler

General nerf
NO MORE AIRDODGE TETHER. BS mechanic.

Fox=No changes. People. 13 YEARS of experience on how to beat Fox! Fox was nerfed from Melee to PM! More characters can give him a hard time! Grow up, stop crying and actually learn the MU.

Falco=See Fox.

Wolf=No changes.

Mewtwo
Nerf weight to 90. No more CC down tilt into 70% combo
No Hover out of Teleport (actually this really isn't a nerf, because if they nerfed TP but not Hover and Nair, people would still complain so...)
Neutral air does half the shieldstun, and there is 8 frames between the 8th and 9th hit of nair so people can't Hover nair and break shields still. The 9th hit is the main shieldstabbing hitbox, so 8 frames between the last two hits allow easy shield grabs and Up B OoS options.
Melee range for his tail, hurtboxes on all parts of tail. No more disjointed BS.
No more ledgestall. Do any more than 5 and you'll miss the ledge, like how ledge stalling with Ike's Aether worked in Brawl.
BUFF: Allow Teleport to go through the platform you were standing on, like in Melee.

Mario=Make him 2.5. No crazy fireball buffs, no ridiculous up smash buffs, bye bye dthrow free follow ups. However KEEP DAT FAIR DONKEY PUNCH. I love that move lmao.

Lucas
Why the heck is he a space animal. Rework down B. Also remove DACUS. Doesn't need it. Already super mobile.

Sonic
Make Spin Dash unsafe on shield. Homing Attack does not give free follow ups, also sends you at a downwards angle when you try to recover with it. Up air KB nerf slightly.

Ganondorf
JC out of down B? Increase air speed.

Marth
Tipper bair is KO move like Brawl. KOs at 130.

Sheik
Melee clone. No changes. Sheik is iffy without her down throw.

Pit
Hit him out of Wings of Icarus, no jumps. Less stun on arrows. No more free follow ups from them. Down air laggier, less hitstun.

Squirtle
Make less dumb. Moves unsafe on shield. Up B has smaller attack hitbox.

Diddy Kong
1 banana. Screw two.
Everyone else, eh. They're fine. Just the top tiers were too strong.

Roy
Needs recovery move. Maybe two Side B stalls? A wall jump Up B?

... Are you special?

 

[jtm94]

My list of nerfs and buffs for PM characters

Spoiler

General nerf
NO MORE AIRDODGE TETHER. BS mechanic.

Fox=No changes. People. 13 YEARS of experience on how to beat Fox! Fox was nerfed from Melee to PM! More characters can give him a hard time! Grow up, stop crying and actually learn the MU.

Falco=See Fox.

Wolf=No changes.

Mewtwo
Nerf weight to 90. No more CC down tilt into 70% combo
No Hover out of Teleport (actually this really isn't a nerf, because if they nerfed TP but not Hover and Nair, people would still complain so...)
Neutral air does half the shieldstun, and there is 8 frames between the 8th and 9th hit of nair so people can't Hover nair and break shields still. The 9th hit is the main shieldstabbing hitbox, so 8 frames between the last two hits allow easy shield grabs and Up B OoS options.
Melee range for his tail, hurtboxes on all parts of tail. No more disjointed BS.
No more ledgestall. Do any more than 5 and you'll miss the ledge, like how ledge stalling with Ike's Aether worked in Brawl.
BUFF: Allow Teleport to go through the platform you were standing on, like in Melee.

Mario=Make him 2.5. No crazy fireball buffs, no ridiculous up smash buffs, bye bye dthrow free follow ups. However KEEP DAT FAIR DONKEY PUNCH. I love that move lmao.

Lucas
Why the heck is he a space animal. Rework down B. Also remove DACUS. Doesn't need it. Already super mobile.

Sonic
Make Spin Dash unsafe on shield. Homing Attack does not give free follow ups, also sends you at a downwards angle when you try to recover with it. Up air KB nerf slightly.

Ganondorf
JC out of down B? Increase air speed.

Marth
Tipper bair is KO move like Brawl. KOs at 130.

Sheik
Melee clone. No changes. Sheik is iffy without her down throw.

Pit
Hit him out of Wings of Icarus, no jumps. Less stun on arrows. No more free follow ups from them. Down air laggier, less hitstun.

Squirtle
Make less dumb. Moves unsafe on shield. Up B has smaller attack hitbox.

Diddy Kong
1 banana. Screw two.
Everyone else, eh. They're fine. Just the top tiers were too strong.

Roy
Needs recovery move. Maybe two Side B stalls? A wall jump Up B?

My thoughts.

Spoiler

airdodge tether is pretty good, but has always been around. It only becomes too good when there are a ton of other recovery options > See Lucas

Fox: Are you indeed special? Do not ask why Lucas is a space animal and change him but leave Fox the same? LEaving Fox the same is the bane of this game. Winning with him for over 10 years should be more than enough satisfaction.

Mewtwo: Mostly I agree. His recovery is still amazing, no double jump out of UpB maybe.

Mario: I agree

Lucas: do not touch his DACUS. His dair may need reworked though. Upthrow made less strong. Decrease the stall DownB provides. And horizontal distance as well.

Sonic: I agree completely.

Ganon: also make his grab less good and decrease KB on all aerials if his speed is increased.

Sheik is a god right now.

Diddy: Needs recovery hampered by at least 1/3

Roy: Give more stall on SideB, no walljump dumb idea it ends badly every time.

 

[InfinityCollision]

For better or for worse, I don't see Fox getting significant changes. It'd be a very polarizing move, something the PMBR is probably (and justifiably) wary of making.

 

[didds]

lol, make less dumb
DO IT PMBR! it's always been so simple.

 

[Phan7om]

I cant wait for the day when Yass or someone picks up PM, plays Pit, and people start complaining that arrows infinite hitbox needs nerfing.

 

[Player -0]

I cant wait for the day when Yass or someone picks up PM, plays Pit, and people start complaining that arrows infinite hitbox needs nerfing.

Dood, that extra arrow mobility. In between stocks just start looping them. Arrow rain like a baws.

Someone's ledgestalling? Begin arrow loop woot woot.

 

[Soft Serve]

No, I.C.s are still booty. Desynch and other gimmicks in neutral only go so far honestly. They are still the extremely vulnerable character from melee, with the same relatively week neutral, they are still easily seperated, and their good punishes require that they are not separated, ie haven't been punished for anything within the last second or so minimum. They dont even have the incredibly threatening punish game they used to.

I think IC's should go the way Kink-link suggested back on smashmods. NO wobbling, give them a few reps of hand-offs, but after 2-4 throws Nana automatically up-throws, which leads to combos or potential resets or tech chaces.

I just cant see them working well, when they still have the weak but still technically demanding neutral, and a bad and inconstant punish game.

 

[Player -0]

The handoff exists (albeit hard to get the timing) anywhere but on the IC boards someone's been able to get it to around 75% of the time I think to force Nana to D-Throw.

Some things might need to be fixed but idk (inb4 suggestion that down taunt makes Popo pluck a Nana from the ground like a pikmin, that would be hilarious though).

 

[Osennecho]

I like the suggestion of giving Roy a wall jump, because like you know... He can make it back to the walls in the first place
Unless you meant out of his upb, which would be really dumb...
The side b stall buff suggestion is good tho and frankly would be all he would need...

 

[Zx2963]

Squirtle's moveset is dumb.

Yes crouch cancel Side B blah blah. That option stops working once Squirtles start respecting it and stop spamming Withdraw. Withdraw is easy to beat on its own. After the option is used much more carefully, its a lot tougher.

You want to kill Sonic is what I read

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I'll just post my prefered change list, for everyone interested (or even if no one is interested which is probably the case).

Spoiler

Bowser:
One more hitbox on the end of Bowser's grounded up-B
Side-B different between tilt and full press (tilt: much faster than full press, less endlag, full press: with higher range, knockback and damage)
Faster IASA for Jab 1
Dash speed slightly increased
Captain Falcon:
2 frame less landing lag on nair (1 l-cancelled)
Charizard:
move hurtbox on wings (more inwards so not that disjointed)
Diddy Kong:
Remove barrels on up-B
More charging time needed per distance on up-B (just slightly otherwise Diddy can't recover)
Increase distance on instant-release up-B (needed because of above change, otherwise he has problems recovering on low distances)
One frame longer animation/ later IASA on fair, bair and up-air
Bananas on grounded hit only do 7% instead of 8%
Bananas (aerial) do 5% instead of 6%
Donkey Kong:
slightly more distance by dash attack
Run animation starts at frame 17 instead of 18
one frame faster IASA on up-air
Falco:
Up-B length reverted to NTSC
Reduce SDI modifier on up-throw lasers
Dair landing lag increased by 2 (L-cancelled by 1)
Dair does 2% less and kb reduced on last frames of the hitbox (frames 20-24)
Fox:
Up-Smash animation 4 frames longer, head not including snout not intangible anymore frames 1-7, hit on frame 8 now
Up-B length average between NTSC and PAL
Weight increased by 2
Mr. Game&Watch:
Neutral-B landing lag decreased by one frame
Fair landing lag decreased by two, up-air and back-air decreased by one
As new side-b system: Little number instead of the dots indicates which precise number is next (to lower random factor), randomness is now spread like the inner 20% of a Gaussian curve, moves are sorted by usefulness again, other criteria are kept
D-tilt animation/IASA one frame longer
Fair and Up-air one frame earlier IASA
Up-B distance decreased
Ganondorf:
Neutral-B changed to a counter only working on grabboxes
tilt down-B: only around 75% of the distance, jump still resets
Light Armor on down-B
Knockback growth on down-throw increased
Earlier IASA on jab
Ice Climbers:
Autothows with Nana two frames later (so you have a three-frame window for handoffs)
Popo up-b slightly faster
Mixups for Nana AI: She doesn't need to be really smart, but she should do different things
SDI modifier on side-B reduced
Ike:
Damage and range on Jab one increased, earlier IASA
Earlier IASA for f-tilt
Side-B: Jump out two frames earlier possible
Side-B walljumps give less height than normal walljumps
Up-B window and box for grabbing ledge decreased, horizontal distance slightly increased
Ivysaur:
Down-B tilt/full press mechanic to be able to change distance
Bair base knockback slightly reduced
Jigglypuff:
F-tilt is now a quick mid/low-range (maybe double the jab range( punch with an upwards angle hitbox (also usage for clanking projectiles and linking into up-air)
Neutral-B: If you press shield you make it stop (in around 10-15 frames), also slowing down immediately. Animation ends after you slowed down
Jiggs footstool jump animation is sped up drastically so footstool -> waveland stuff works better + footstool->rest on some characters
Sing has only one hitbox, and ends faster (still you can mashout fast enough to avoid getting rested). After you wake out from a sing all your animations last 1.5x as long for 5 seconds (a bit like Luigi's neutral-b just not as weird).
Down-tilt causes tripping like Squirtle's down-b, increased damage
Increased shield damage on side-b
King Dedede:
Hitbox on up-b as Dedede starts going up
Earlier IASA on f-tilt
Slightly reduced distance on up-b
Full press: side-b: normal; Tilt: no gordows
Up-tilt base knockback and knockback growth increased
Kirby:
Increased knockback scaling on down-throw
Crouch's hurtbox goes a bit lower
Up-air startup faster
Higher backleaning horizontal Air Mobility, higher no-dash-jump horizontal maximum velocity
Up-tilt hitbox increased
Down-B knockback increased
Link:
Boomerang has 1% less damage, distance slightly reduced
Nair landing lag reduced by 2 (L-cancelled 1)
Lucario:
Side-B hitbox reaching more downward
Lucas:
Up-throw knockback growth reduced
Tether range reduced
Duration of neutral-B increased (so its main application is usage after you got a star KO)
Luigi:
F-tilt damage increased
IASA on grounded fireball
IASA on up-tilt
Mario:
Fireballs damage reduced to 6%
Increased knockback growth on down-throw
Down-B needs more input for the same height gain
After up-B walljump another up-B isn't possible (air dodge still possible)
Marth:
Press attack+neutral B: Brawl neutral-B
Meta Knight:
Nair landing lag increased by 2 frames (L-cancelled one), startup one frame longer
Increased knockback growth on down-throw
Initial up-B loop height reduced by a little
Mewtwo:
Teleport aerial only if second jump/hover isn't used already
Teleport distance slightly reduced
Slight shadow claw knockback nerf
Up-B induces a window of not being able to grab the ledge again for 38 frames (you can still up-B stall if you delay it, but you will always have at least one frame of being not intangible)
Ness:
Magnet comes out 2 frames faster
Up-B distance slightly reduced
Olimar:
Pikmin evolve faster, side-B damage increased, Pikmin without evolving also a bit stronger, evloved Pikmin slightly weaker
Plucking faster
Neutral-B stall in the air doesn't work anymore, down-B in the air stalls in the way neutral-B did
Knockback on d-tilt increased
Peach:
Dash/run speed increased
Turnip pull slightly faster
Pikachu:
Down-smash buffed to an inbetween of Melee and Brawl
Aerial Maximum Horizontal Velocity increased
IASA on up-tilt
Pit:
Increased knockback growth on down-throw, altered knockback angle
Side-b cancel criteria are tightened
ROB:
Down-B animation faster
Grounded up-B little hitbox close to the ground
Tilt/Full press to alter side-B distance to go a bit longer/shorter than currently
Roy:
First aerial Side-b upward boost increased (resets on landing as it does now)
Dair landing lag reduced by 2 (L-cancelled 1)
Samus:
Tether range reduced
Zair range slightly reduced
Damage on smash missiles slightly reduced
Sheik:
Poison effect on side-b, different chain options reverted to Melee + grab for an extra distance swing (which leaves you a bit vulnerable afterwards) and down for reduced range and angles but being able to crawl with it. Pressing shield when crawling in side-b will make you go back to normal crouch animation after a ~10 frames animation.
Meteor on the tip of the dair
Needles charge duration slightly increased
Three up-bs to the ledge (shino stalls as example) will trigger to remove invincibility on your next up-b unless you touch the ground inbetween
Snake:
Increase on down-throw knockback growth
Sonic:
Using aerial side-b forces you to choose between jump or up-b afterwards, both isn't possible
Change SFX/graphics in a way you can react easier to Sonic's moves
Only one aerial neutral-B unless you hit a player, you can choose where to aim though with the control stick
Squirtle:
Earlier IASA on d-tilt/jab 1
Side-b direction changes easier to control
Hitbox on up-b doesn't reach as far outward
Short hop height decreased
Toon Link:
Bomb pull slightly faster
Bomb's shield damage increased
Zair goes through shields, landing lag increased
Wario:
Neutral-B "eats" projectiles.
IASA on Jab 1
Wolf:
Up-B distance slightly reduced (as if there was a NTSC and PAL Wolf and right now its NTSC and its changed to an average of both)
Side-b angle difference between angling up and down increased
Yoshi:
Melee parry mechanics
Zelda:
More damage on the first hit of up-air
Knockback angles and SDI modifiers of neutral-B changed in a way it is possible but hard to get out
Zero Suit Samus:
Up-B Tether range reduced
IASA on Jab 1
Fair works more like Falcon's nair on the tip (bit more range and damage)

In general (mechanics and other stuff):
1-frame momentum delay removed, first-airbourne-frame aerial jump height reduction reverted to Melee
Z tethers can grab the ledge as it is right now if no one is there, if someone is on the edge already they instantly do a slower version of the Forced Tether Jump which takes a route allowing opponents to hit them off if timed precisely. If someone grabs the edge after it is tethered it remains as it is in PM 3.02.
Shieldpoke mechanic is changed (if technically possible) so shieldpokes only happen if the relevant hitbox hits the player with more area than the shield
Crouchcancelling reduces knockback to 0.75x instead of 2/3x if KB*(3/4) is under the ECT of 80 KB units
Animation length on missed tech reverted to Melee
Crouching out of turning animation is instantly cancellable
SFX of powershield relfecting projectiles changed, SFX generally more saturated
Tags don't change their position as much when changing animations (for example dashdancing)
...

Might have forgotten stuff etc..., don't really know right now
Put quite a lot of thought into this one, lets see if I'm hoping/guessing right in the end. Inspirations can be taken of course

 

[mimgrim]

My change list;

Bowser;
A way to deal with projectiles, either in the form of his own projectile or something else.
A foward, down, and up variation along with his current neutral and back throws, on Koopa Klaw after it grabs someone. And aerial variation would be cool to.
Fortress Hogging made easier.
Get rid of armor.

Olimar;
Give 5 Pikmin.
Make pluck faster.

After that I don't care what happens.

 

[Mr.Random]

I'm still really mixed on nerfs in general. I hate the feeling that your character is weaker or slightly changed when you gotten so used to trying to innovate their metagame.
On a side note, I also don't understand why some people want to change Zelda because "she boring/she's frustrating". Some people like playing defensive characters so having some frustrating defensive characters changes up the pace a bit. Not every characters needs to be a crazy combo machine with offensive pressure. If you don't like Zelda either don't play her or learn the match up/ counter pick with someone else. This game requires you to play different characters since there is much more counterpicking and more Matchups/Stages.

 

[Phan7om]

My changelist wishes for Kirby

Spoiler

His uair knockback Melee angle

Slightly less knockback scaling on u-tilt

Dtilt forces tumble at much lower %s (half the % that it does now)

Fthrow combos more reliably into uair at low %s

Dthrow knockback scaling increase

Uthrow a kill throw (said this way before E3 peepz)

Dsmash range increase (it has lower horizontal range than u-tilt wtf)

Quicker startup on Dair

Lessen DA's priority (for lack of a better word, dont kill me NickRiddle)

Rework inhale so that its a lot harder to Kirbycide, but still keep overall inhale usefulness as a command grab the same

Make it so that FC can only grab the ledge backwards if sweetspotted, its broken as it is now lmao

Copy abilities more or less the same as the original

Leave everything else the same... perfection!

 

[EmptySky00]

Gut Kirby's dash attack altogether. I hate it so much.

 

[Zx2963]

My changelist for Sonic:

Spoiler

*Increase maximum runspeed and increase traction
*Give Uair more KB
*Make the very tip of fair a spike
*Down-B can be instantly cancelled in air, but on ground can not be cancelled
*Sweetspotted bair as powerful as Ganons
*Taunts can be instantly cancelled on movement
*All normals have faster IASA frames
*Dthrow has increased hitsun
*Fthrow has increased hitstun
*If hit by falling spring from up-b meteors
*Neutral-B can be cancelled at any point and can be held done on shield to punish*

 

[EmptySky00]

That bordered so much on tryhard it wasn't even cute. I hope Sonic's unviable next patch just for that.


Edit: I want Marth's Fair to have 50 frames of electric stun upon hit like ZSS Dsmash. Not too much, but just enough so you can walk a bit away and space a charged tipper Fsmash. Nothing serious.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ Zx2963
I fear your changelist makes Sonic too strong

 

[Rᴏb]

My changelist for Sonic:

Spoiler

*buff his spin move
*nerf his not spin move
*buff his taunt volume
*replace spring with rush spring because megaman is a cool character and should be in PM because he deserves it (see my thesis in the clone discussion thread for more on that matter)
*replace his green eyes
*make him have more IASA frames on his aerials because he's supposed to be fast!!

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

If you think Roy's recovery needs buffing you're bad and you should feel bad. I swear no-one even realises how far he can recover from (plus the multihits on Blazer make it hard to intercept). Come on, guys. We've been through this over and over on the Roy boards. (And to add to that, doesn't PM have a reputation of recoveries that are too stronk? Lol.) Actually let's get this out of the way too, if you think Dair should be a spike, give a reason why other than "because M2K meteor cancelled it at APEX against Sethlon". I have seen that on the Roy boards at least 4 times. It's the only argument people put forward and it got 2 threads dedicated to it. Smh.

Anyway, I've been watching this turn into a thread about buffs/nerfs instead of tiers so I'll finally drop my opinions as I'm no longer scared of getting flamed for being unknowledgeable.

Mewtwo: Reduce weight down to what it was in Melee (85), OR make it so that he can't jump (and by extension Hover) out of Teleport. Attacking out of Teleport needs to stay though.
Jigglypuff: Just... make her good please.
Ganondorf: Tilts could use changing or tweaking. Utilt is cool and all, but too situational still and it's not like Ganondorf doesn't have a boatload of moves to accomplish the "risky hard read/punish" role already. Dtilt doesn't seem fantastic either, especially when Ftilt can be angled down lol. Giving the throws other than Dthrow some more utility couldn't hurt.
Bowser: Restore Fortress Hogging. What's the point of making something harder to do, but still possible and just as rewarding as it was before? Make your mind up, PMBR.
Meta Knight is everything. He's all you ever wanted.
Ness: A better neutral game is something that I'm sure a lot of Ness mains want and I can see why. In particular, better tilts. I think any big changes to Ness though could be highly dangerous. Just a slight range buff on these tilts would be good.
Pit: Make Dthrow NOT the most ridiculous autocombo in the game.

Any other characters I either think don't need changes, or I'm confident that I don't know enough about them. But yeah as you can probably see, the only changes I want are (mostly) small things and that's what I feel PM buffs and nerfs should be about at this point. I think sometimes people forget just how balanced this game is. There are some things that are bad from a logical perspective, but I don't think any characters are "overpowered".

mid-2015 edit: Man I say some stupid ****. PM balanced pre-3.5? Ha! No way. And Ness's PK Fire was so dumb.

 

[Zx2963]

@ Zx2963
I fear your changelist makes Sonic too strong

Are you sure? Seems pretty balanced compared to Fox

 

[EmptySky00]

You could win a set now even if you never won it

 

[Phan7om]

nvm

10chars

 

[Strong Badam]

Let's talk about characters as they are instead of how you would like them to be, please?

 

[Osennecho]

There's a difference between thinking Roy's recovery needs buffed, and thinking if he were to be buffed, a minute buff to his recovery is all he needs. Roy is fine as he is and a perfect example of an excellent (in my opinion ideal and diverse) character. The only problem is that a fair number are noticeably better/worse than him in a game aimed at balance. If the gap is closed even slightly whether through small nerfs or buffs (which I imagine it will be in some way or other) then the problem will fix itself with time even if he is never touched.

Also Strongbad nooooo . I demand #buffs4puff

You could win a set now even if you never won it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVFpRQdOuQ0#t=00m12s
Your post begged this link.