Tier List Speculation

[victinivcreate1]

You want to kill Sonic is what I read

Sonic by design is broken. Get rid of his overly strong Spin Dash and have him focus more on abusing his dash speed (better tech chase game and make his DA actually good, like it has actual good combo potential). I mean the character is dumb fast, why is his running speed neglected for some dumb spin?

 

[jtm94]

Let's talk about characters as they are instead of how you would like them to be, please?

What does this thread really accomplish? In all reality the back room shouldn't care what we think, they should be able to see the issues on their own. Eh, I feel like a hamster in a cage running for amusement, but I guess I'm ok with that because I am here after all.

The characters as they are:
a step ahead of the rest

Spoiler

Mario
DK
Diddy
Wolf
Fox
Falco
Zelda?
Sheik
Link
Toon Link
Mewtwo
Ivysaur
Samus
Lucas
Pit
Meta Knight
Snake
Sonic

Characters who are a slight step behind

Spoiler

Wario
Peach
Yoshi
Captain Falcon
Lucario
Pikachu
Jigglypuff
Squirtle
Charizard
ZSS
Ness
Kirby
DDD
Ike
Marth
Roy
Olimar
R.O.B.

Characters 2 steps behind:

Spoiler

Bowser
Ice Climbers
Ganondorf
Mr. Game & Watch

Sonic by design is broken. Get rid of his overly strong Spin Dash and have him focus more on abusing his dash speed (better tech chase game and make his DA actually good, like it has actual good combo potential). I mean the character is dumb fast, why is his running speed neglected for some dumb spin?

DA actually isn't that bad, but it does irk me he has a movement option better than his fastest running speed. If he isn't going to use it slow it down, or make spindash less do-all.

 

[mimgrim]

Jigglypuff is only a slight step behind? GnW is two steps behind?

I am confuzzled.

 

[EmptySky00]

He grouped them in bigger categories to minimize controversy. Note that the only other category is the bottom 4 lol. So Jigglypuff is at least 5th worst. It's not that real.


G&W isn't very good.

 

[mimgrim]

He grouped them in bigger categories to minimize controversy. Note that the only other category is the bottom 4 lol. So Jigglypuff is at least 5th worst. It's not that real.


G&W isn't very good.

GnW is better then Ganon, Jiggs, ICs, and Bowser.

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

I pity the fool who doesn't know the power of the Salt Hammer.

 

[EmptySky00]

Spoiler

A. -

B. -

C. -

D. -

E. -

Gets less specific as I go down. The top two tiers are the ones I'm most sure about and tiers themselves are in no particular order (not necessarily saying Pit is above Mario).


And the goddamn judgment hammer doesn't make G&W good <_>

 

[EmptySky00]

edit: Crashboards

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

Wha?! Doy?! WHOAhoho what's the deal with that Marth placement bro?

 

[EmptySky00]

... He's in tier B. I explicitly said that characters within a particular tier are not in order. Do you read? I mean at all? Don't act like I'm an idiot it annoys the hell out of me.


And right here, gentleman, is part of what I was trying to demonstrate. There will literally ALWAYS be some imbecile who takes issue with some random **** due to personal bias. Thus discussing tiers is absolutely pointless because you can say anything there will be no intelligent discussion but rather some idiotic controversy over nothing.

 

[Osennecho]

@ E EmptySky00 Don't let @Lunchables see that you have Puff above TL omg LOL
Please tell me that list is a joke?

 

[Bleck]

Do you read? I mean at all? Don't act like I'm an idiot it annoys the hell out of me.

You should probably calm down.

 

[EmptySky00]

Yup. I also said it gets less specific as I go down. Lunchables can say whatever he wants. I will maintain that a good player using a bad character does not suddenly change reality and make that character good. TL isn't that good.

Editedit: It's also not like what I say is law regardless. So there's that. As I said, there will be disagreement no matter who makes a list. If God himself came down and spoke that he could see viability as though it were his own hand and made a tier list with that hand using a golden calligraphy pen, there would still be someone who would disagree.
Edit: I'm pretty calm actually.

 

[Osennecho]

Also, I do agree with a fair amount of your groupings it's just that a couple are ehh.. That God + calligraphy comparison tho. Just wondering, could I get your reasoning behind Sheik in A instead of B?

 

[Zx2963]

Spoiler

A. -

B. -

C. -

D. -

E. -

Gets less specific as I go down. The top two tiers are the ones I'm most sure about and tiers themselves are in no particular order (not necessarily saying Pit is above Mario).


And the goddamn judgment hammer doesn't make G&W good <_>

Samus is in the wrong tier :\, she is definitely not top tier

 

[Rᴏb]

how could anyone possibly think g&w is in the same tier as ganon and bowser? i'm really interested in your reasoning behind this placement

 

[mimgrim]

What isn't good about TL?

What isn't good about Pika?

What isn't good about Squirt?

What is bad with GnW that he is the worst character, or even on the level of Ganon.

What makes Jiggs mid and not bottom?

 

[Bleck]

Edit: I'm pretty calm actually.

Nnnnnaaah, I don't think so.

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

Hey bro, lighten up. I was just poking around and caught a glimps of the list.
(Also, Marth is most certainly A Tier material at THIS point)

And what exactly has caused you to assume people are taken seriously in a speculation board devoted to a game that in itself has no solid matchup chart?

Edit: And no, I can't take myself seriously here either.

 

[jtm94]

Jigglypuff is only a slight step behind? GnW is two steps behind?

I am confuzzled.

Just because Jigglypuff doesn't have the craziness of other characters, doesn't mean rest is less powerful. I do not mean for this to downplay rest it is EXTREMELY difficult to execute against players avoiding it, but with high skill behind her she is a monster. A lot of the Jigglypuff players from Melee believe her to be one of the best in the game only losing to Fox. While she may not gimp every character as hard as Foxco she can still do dirty stuff taking you into the blast zone and coming back. It is kind of like how I do not think Lucario is that good, but at max level of play I would put him at close to the top because of what he is capable of.

Game and Watch might be decent at lower levels and just starting. You can see he has some neat horizontal combos at lower to mid %s, pillar-esque combos around mid %s, and good recovery, but other characters just pick him apart. It's kind of like... if he gets in he can take it pretty far optimally, but no one is letting that happen. His projectile is neat and has some uses, but honestly it is lackluster. I have put a few months into solo GnW and watched higher level play. My conclusion is that he is bad. He himself is extremely easy to combo, easy to KO, easy to edgeguard as long as your character has the tools, and easy to punish. He does have AMAZING things that I will not downplay, such as the landing hitbox of dair that leads into any KO move. And his Side B that "can" KO obscenely early and just do derp stuff on a godly level. Dtilt is incredibly strong against floaties, and nair is HUGE, but alas strength =/= tier placement.

If anyone wants my serious reasoning I will post it. I'm feeling kind of contemplative atm.

Also you people that just post.... GnW is not as bad as Ganon are a virus.

 

[mimgrim]

Jiggs doesn't beat every character in Melee lol. She actually has a lot of disadvantageous MUs with the lower tiers and is only top tier because of how she does against the other top tiers not named Fox.And lets not forget how a lot of these lower tiered characters have no been buffed. There are also plenty of character in PM that can do what she did so good in Melee better and more.

Everything you say about GnW leads me to believe he is low/lower mid tier and not bottom tier. :/

 

[Rᴏb]

Also you people that just post.... GnW is not as bad as Ganon are a virus.

I figured it was so obvious I could spare you all of a redundant wall of text.
Unless you are implying you think otherwise?

 

[victinivcreate1]

@ jtm94
If you think Lucario is a slight step behind, well you haven't realized his true potential.

I don't even play or touch this character, but I know in a Smash game, a street fighter esque character will be very good. Giving Lucario also has other good attributes like solid aerials, grabs, a projectile, and decent recovery, I think he is one of the tops.

Lucario can put together incredible strings.

 

[EmptySky00]

Nnnnnaaah, I don't think so.

I feel like I would know better than you. Sorry bro, but that seems like checkmate to me. We can debate my emotional state all day, but it won't solve anything nor will you ever win. So there's that.

Samus is in the wrong tier :\, she is definitely not top tier

I didn't label it as top tier. It was simply the top 10. She's about as good as Link imo. But an order needs to be made regardless. She's at least somewhere around there. Top 13 at worst imo. She's pretty good regardless of the semantics of the letters placed beside her.

Hey bro, lighten up. I was just poking around and caught a glimps of the list.
(Also, Marth is most certainly A Tier material at THIS point)

And what exactly has caused you to assume people are taken seriously in a speculation board devoted to a game that in itself has no solid matchup chart?

Edit: And no, I can't take myself seriously here either.

That's fair. I get hostile when I feel people are acting like I'm an idiot. Mea culpa. I'm not expecting to be taken seriously at all.


Marth is not A tier. That's all I have to say. He's good but not top 10.

 

[victinivcreate1]

@ E EmptySky00

You put Sheik in top tier, but not Lucas, Sonic or Snake, two characters who are WAYY stronger than Sheik is in terms of general moveset.

Sheik is mid at best. Nerfed wayy too hard in PM, and plenty other characters have dumb CGs as well.

 

[Bleck]

I feel like I would know better than you.

I don't.

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

I can second that @ Bleck . :/

 

[EmptySky00]

@ E EmptySky00

You put Sheik in top tier, but not Lucas, Sonic or Snake, two characters who are WAYY stronger than Sheik is in terms of general moveset.

Sheik is mid at best. Nerfed wayy too hard in PM, and plenty other characters have dumb CGs as well.

Again, A tier. Top tier holds a whole different stigma. I'm simply grouping them in moderately vague categories based on my opinion.

I strongly disagree. Sheik was not nerfed as hard as people like to pretend she was. She's still very good. And dumb CGs have nothing to do with anything.

I don't.

Well you're entitled to be wrong just like every other idiot in the world. Good day sir.

 

[victinivcreate1]

To the people who think Marth is top ten...
No.
Recovery sucks compared to rest of PM cast
Can't edgeguard as well because aforementioned stronger recoveries.
Hard time KOing. You don't Ko at 75-80? Well 160 is your next best shot.

 

[Deleted member]

Lunchables can say whatever he wants. I will maintain that a good player using a bad character does not suddenly change reality and make that character good. TL isn't that good.

You 100% think puff is better than toonlink?

 

[EmptySky00]

You 100% think puff is better than toonlink?

To tell you the truth, I have no opinion on that matter. At least not that specific comparison.

I said, maybe... three to four times now that I got much less specific as I went down on the list. So you can take it any way you want.

editeditedit: Actually, I'll move Jiggs down a tier now that I think of it.

And actually, yes. Jiggz beats the ****ing **** out of TL's stubby ass. Lawl how about them apples? Put TL at the bottom of C instead of the top. Just for you <3

 

[jtm94]

I figured it was so obvious I could spare you all of a redundant wall of text.
Unless you are implying you think otherwise?

I will rescind my placement of GnW and put him at astep and a half behind, half a step ahead of Ganon. Yay for arbitrary tier placement.

I believe a number of things that change how I view GnW in relation to Ganon. 1 I view GnW as being pretty bad after playing him pretty hard for an extended period of time and taking him to tournaments. 2 I do not view Ganon as lowly as most view him. People tend to just have a social stigma of labeling Ganon as terribad by default, but he has extremely potent elements to his playstyle along with the couple buffs he has received making him not as low as people think, but still low enough to be a gatekeeper for the bottom of the barrel. No character is really THAT MUCH worse than another in this game, the tiers are very close and in all reality the game will be more about who has the better MUs in general. GnW's only redeeming quality over Ganon is that he can do extremely dirty things to a fastfaller when he gets in making those MUs more bearable and GnW has a projectile that can be used heavily against bigger characters giving him good tools for those MUs.

Also I don't know why people keep downplaying Sheik when she is still absolutely amazing in this game. I do not know if I would place her at the VERY top, but she could be a gatekeeper to it. She lost a downthrow that had guaranteed follow ups at early %s for chaingrabs, and even guaranteed KOs at any % on some more or less, but now she has early % follow ups on everyone, as well as a 50/50 DI mixup that leads into you being dead. It isn't as good as Mario's downthrow that does it all, but it is close to it.

LUARIO:
I addressed Lucario in my most recent post, you must have skipped that part. I spoke of how he may be the best character when played perfectly, it's just hard to do so.

 

[Deleted member]

Lunchables can say whatever he wants. I will maintain that a good player using a bad character does not suddenly change reality and make that character good. TL isn't that good.

I COMPLETELY disagree with you on toonlink being a bad character, but I guess I'll take this as a compliment.

 

[EmptySky00]

Hell, if you do good as TL I respect you for it.

I also explicitly didn't say he was bad. I said he wasn't that good. That second sentence is what I always say to people who claim a character is good by citing a good player doing well with them. I simply mean it doesn't prove anything about the character itself.

 

[Phan7om]

lol I hate when people bring up that logic tho

Person 1: "Oh X character is bad"

Person 2: "No hes not, watch 'said player' he does wonders with this character, which automatically means hes good"

Person 1: "-_-"

 

[AstraEDM]

My thoughts on Lucario are basically that when I watched aMSa vs Zero, amsa would do his amsa level tech skill and pull of ridiculous strings of like 60% on zero and then zero's pit would just dair dair dair fair or up-b or something for the same damage
This applies to watching lucario vs chars like snake and lucas too
It feels like he can almost go about even but has to work so, so much harder for it

 

[steelguttey]

see, the problem with that argument is that when characters are undeveloped and a player finally brings out what they can do, nobody believes that character can do things.

 

[EmptySky00]

That's not the case at all. But some characters objectively have less effective options than others. Do we ignore that because some guy beat a bunch of people with that character? Usually you can tell if it's just a good player or if the character's actually good. TL isn't that good. He's not garbage, but he's not good. He's surrounded by much better characters.

I prefer to argue character viability based on factual evidence based on the character itself, not a video of aMSa Yoshi'ing people or Taj beating a Fox player.

 

[steelguttey]

im absolutely positive @Lunchables would put up an argument if you actually stated points on why hes not good. hes high mid tier imo, and thats above average

(not to put lunchables in a bad spot, he has the right to decline an internet argument about a videogame lol)

 

[Phan7om]

Truth is, lots of people make tier lists almost solely off of tournament results and character popularity than the actual tools that the character has. Should be the other way around imo, using tourney results to judge human limits/error.