Tier List Speculation

[EmptySky00]

What? You have to use moves intelligently?

I don't even..

 

[Mr.Random]

Is Mario like the new Fox or something? Lol so much bias (lol the irony). Hate hearing my main get trash talked. Maybe if I should main Ganon instead.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

People complain about Mario cuz they don't know how to counterpick characters or somethin.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Deleted member]

People complain about Mario cuz they don't know how to counterpick characters or somethin.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i don't know how to counterpick mario

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm decidedly in the homicidal camp btw

edit:

Is Mario like the new Fox or something? Lol so much bias (lol the irony). Hate hearing my main get trash talked. Maybe if I should main Ganon instead.

I wouldn't if you like easy wins. Ganon is hard/bad and Mario is easy/good. easy/good is strictly superior.

 

[EmptySky00]

Mario is very good. And more than moderately obnoxious.

My main gets trash talked all the damn time. Welcome to the club bro. We have heart containers. Don't take it personal and just keep doing what you're doing. Every character gets trashed by someone, idgaf how bad or good they are.


And you can use the counterpick argument for anything. If a character is ridiculous a character is ridiculous, counterpicks or otherwise.

 

[MLGF]

I thought everyone had a pocket Marth for the typical Mario...

 

[Deleted member]

I thought everyone had a pocket Marth for the typical Mario...

they do, which is hilarious since mario wins that MU in this game and that basically every marth besides PP is terrible and he doesn't even play the game. it's like counterpicking yourself into an auto-loss.

 

[MLGF]

I dunno, I think swordies eat Mario. The better their mobility the even better the matchup.

 

[EmptySky00]

Link decidedly does not eat Mario. /exception

And turns out Mario's recovery is ridiculous to gimp so Marth loses his most optimal kill method.

Marth's combo weight is also delicious so Mario can do even more build-a-bear combos on him. Anything into Fair sounds good.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I dunno, I think swordies eat Mario. The better their mobility the even better the matchup.

Marth slaps Mario
Marth out rangers mario
It's very hard to get in as mario
A good Marth does not let himself get CC's
Doesn't have to deal with fireballs
And more
Marth slaps mario
There is a reason you don't see the common characters vs much
Never think otherwise

 

[Cpt.]

Hey so I was trying to think of the top tier characters. I watch a lot of competetive play from VGBootCamp and Clash Tournamets. Recently the characters that got into the Grand Finals the most were (in order) Diddy Kong, Mewtwo, Pit, Lucas. Fairly often Meta Knight, Kirby, Mario and Sonic. Make it to Grands.

Does this seem right with what everyone is speculating here for Top Tier?
A:
B:

can people give me more channels that put out super competitive PM tournies so I can go through those too?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

SB is supposed to be used sparingly, especially against Mewtwo. Unfortunately most Lucario players are too bomb-happy.

I was first reading SB as @Strong Bad and was a little confused. PMBR powerup.

 

[Deleted member]

also mario has either the best or 2nd best edge guarding in the game, and it feels almost custom made to destroy marth's recovery. invincible drop bair, anti-sweetspot cape, fireball spam to force marth into cape >dsmash coverage

also marth can't do anything to beat both fireball and still hit mario besides fair since fireball clanks or beats literally the rest of his moveset, so all you have to do is fireball approaches from relatively safe spots that don't lose to marth's fair, or even better do it to bait mart's fair, let him hit the fireball, and then ruin him with whatever you want in the swing lag

also mario has a ridiculous choice of stages that work for him and against marth. you can practically hit random and still CP him by default a good portion of the time.

we can do this all day. basically mario beats marth, and then marth obliterates the rest of the mushroom kingdom chars.

 

[1FD]

@Umbreon
I like you. But as one of the 20ish people I like on these boards as a smart person, you change your mind about things INSANELY more often than ANY of the others I like.

This is like the 3rd time in a few months, but this one gets me baby.
I was all like Mario does good against Marth
Then you said no and that Marth beats all the bros hard
I was crying inside thinking what gives man I thought you was my friend!
Now you not like that and think Mario does good against Marth
What gives man?

On the other hand I think Link does good against Mario unlike @ E EmptySky00 this time.
What gives man be on my side early don't be like Umby!
My side is a good side.


Also PS I don't think Marth beats Luigi but that's another topic
Maybe one day umby, maybe one day

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Post 3 notable videos of this so called Marth slayer
I asked for this a month ago and all you did was make johns. More johns please?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I always compare it to Marth vs Peach in Melee and also this MU is controversial...

 

[Deleted member]

@Umbreon
I like you. But as one of the 20ish people I like on these boards as a smart person, you change your mind about things INSANELY more often than ANY of the others I like.

This is like the 3rd time in a few months, but this one gets me baby.
I was all like Mario does good against Marth
Then you said no and that Marth beats all the bros hard
I was crying inside thinking what gives man I thought you was my friend!
Now you not like that and think Mario does good against Marth
What gives man?

On the other hand I think Link does good against Mario unlike @ E EmptySky00 this time.
What gives man be on my side early don't be like Umby!
My side is a good side.

the short version is that people that are willing to learn generally change their opinions often as they learn things, and people with dogmatic views tend to remain static. at least as far as i can tell. that said, i don't recall saying that marth beats mario, although i welcome you to quote one of my prior posts that i may have forgotten.

 

[1FD]

^ I'm not digging something like that up but you basically included him in the Marth beats all the bros hard in this game statement.
People being static isn't the only thing you should be attributing notchangingminds to lol
Otherwise you're saying the only reason you think Marth beats Wario/Luigi is that you don't learn anything, instead of things like those actually being possibly true. lol
edit I know what you're saying and that that is the reason you see Marth/Mario different but yeah, blanket statements without covering other stuff can sound pretty silly.

This might sound dumb, but how about using Roy's Counter against projectiles?
Other than that, I got nothing.

^THIS
Freaking this!
Don't underestimate this kind of thing. Full hop fireball? SH Counter towards him, it's like fighting a Falco but he can't just cancel into shield. SH Fireballs? Easier to deal with PSing and stuff so no biggy, but it still works a lot too.
It's not fullproof of course, but the crap is GOOD

Mewtwo use Reflect! The foe protected itself!
Lucario used Spirit Bomb! Mewtwo protected itself! Lucario takes 25 damage! Lucario fainted....

Don't shoot stuff
Just wait for Mewtwo to do stuff and downB into free things

 

[EmptySky00]

Pills can shut Link down. Mario has a 0-50 CG on Link. Link's combo weight is bad. Mario has a good combo weight. Mario is hard to gimp. Mario can indeed easily gimp Link.

Mario is one of Link's hardest MUs. Mario, Sheik, Falco are probably the worst. I'm not ******** I'm simply articulating the MU. It's generally accepted that Mario is good against Link as far as I'm aware.

 

[1FD]

That's cool, I don't see Sheik or Falco being some of his hardest either though
Link combos hard and getting clipped by things like a Zair or dash attack is stupid when the stuff goes through/over/under fireballs and can lead to easy deaths if you have any %, which he can tack on easy with a rang or zair or 2 anyway.
Getting a grab on Link seems hard if the Link is walling Mario accordingly to the way Mario is trying to get through the wall/return-walling
PM is too tight
Too tight like too many toiguhz
Ps not saying Link beats any of those 3 hard or anything, just saying I think there are worse matchups for the hyrule dude

 

[Mr.Random]

i don't know how to counterpick mario

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm decidedly in the homicidal camp btw

edit:



I wouldn't if you like easy wins. Ganon is hard/bad and Mario is easy/good. easy/good is strictly superior.

You know even though you bash my main I still love your posts <3
Actually I want to talk about Mewtwo. Does he really need nerfs or does he just need tweaking?

 

[EmptySky00]

That's cool, I don't see Sheik or Falco being some of his hardest either though
Link combos hard and getting clipped by things like a Zair or dash attack is stupid when the stuff goes through/over/under fireballs and can lead to easy deaths if you have any %, which he can tack on easy with a rang or zair or 2 anyway.
Getting a grab on Link seems hard if the Link is walling Mario accordingly to the way Mario is trying to get through the wall/return-walling
PM is too tight
Too tight like too many toiguhz
Ps not saying Link beats any of those 3 hard or anything, just saying I think there are worse matchups for the hyrule dude

Pills set up for grabs and come in much higher volumes than links projectiles /thanksmalpractice

Idk tbh idc enough to debate it nor do I have the necessary amount of brainpower available ATM to continue articulating it until it's clear enough. I don't speak MU very well. At least not well enough to suit a debating conversational format. Falco and sheik make my eyes bleed. It's not even like my link is bad. And we know already from years of melee and PM that being able to combo a spacie doesn't mean you have a good matchup with them.



Edit: I personally just dislike teleport being so goddamn DBZ.

 

[Deleted member]

Otherwise you're saying the only reason you think Marth beats Wario/Luigi is that you don't learn anything, instead of things like those actually being possibly true. lol
edit I know what you're saying and that that is the reason you see Marth/Mario different but yeah, blanket statements without covering other stuff can sound pretty silly.

sure, but i base my viewpoints on what i know right now. as does everyone really, "that is true to me right now" but that's kind of implied in both the internet forums and through the larger frame of human philosophy. luigi may actually beat marth, and if i find that to be the case i would rather change my viewpoint than deny the reality before me.

right now, i could see marth vs mario being even if fireballs were manageable,but as-is fireballs are hilariously stupid vs any character without safe lingering hitboxes in neutral, which marth sorely lacks. i've said this 100 times but as soon as you start doing the gayness to marth he gets a LOT worse. in a world where people just make their tier opinions based on friendlies in a buddy's basement, yeah marth is really good. as soon as you start shield camping him, staying grounded, projectile camping, counterpicking, and really playing to win, he starts to kinda suck. mario is amazing in casual play and remains amazing in tournament play as well.

 

[GP&B]

You know even though you bash my main I still love your posts <3
Actually I want to talk about Mewtwo. Does he really need nerfs or does he just need tweaking?

I'm thinking remove hover out of TP, keep free action maybe. Beyond that, I would consider reducing tail range, but only after we know for sure that the recovery/functionality nerf to TP -> Hover doesn't bring him down too much. Just that alone is the most notable outlier to his kit and I think he might be fine without it.

 

[mimgrim]

The only thing I would do with Mewtwo is to make Teleport go into helpless state after use, just to see how it would change him. If it ended up being too much then yea, just make it to where it only eats up DJ and Hover but without it putting him into helpless. :L

 

[shairn]

The only thing I would do with Mewtwo is to make Teleport go into helpless state after use, just to see how it would change him. If it ended up being too much then yea, just make it to where it only eats up DJ and Hover but without it putting him into helpless. :L

Replacing acting out of teleport with teledashing could be cool.

 

[didds]

Replacing acting out of teleport with teledashing could be cool.

Like zelda?

 

[Frost | Odds]

@Umbreon serious respect for being willing to change your mind. Most people on these boards and elsewhere won't do so under any circumstances whatsoever.

I actually like mewtwo being able to act out of teleport - it's a cool mobility option that makes for some hype as hell combos and stuff. It's just way too safe right now. If M2 doesn't want to fight, you can't fight him -- and as long as he doesn't commit, he can teleport nair on top of you anytime. The telenair can't be punished without prior commitment yourself, which is probably the biggest problem with him.

Though I think it'd be incredibly difficult to 'overnerf' that character all the way down to mid tier (God forbid!), I'd be happy enough with a lag increase on both teleport and nair (and maybe a few other moves - looking at you, utilt), and an extension on the tail hurtboxes so PM's shorter ranged/slower characters can actually get in on the great white dingleberry. For starters, anyway.

 

[1FD]

EmptySky I was talking about combos on Mario too and yeah Fireballs > Grab is good
Though I don't think that's really a thing Link has more trouble with than others. Even Laser > Grab is good, but Mario gets more out of it, so yeah it's for sure a great thing Mario has on Link. Though if you just do what bamesy told anther and just go to where Mario doesn't want you to be and weather the storm then Mario can get in a lot of trouble. He has to force you into getting grabbed, but you CAN not-get-grabbed if you really REALLY don't want to. I believe in you! lol I mean I believe in Link and Mario having beatability by him by these methods and stuff.

Umby I think you got my point but didn't address it but yeah, I obviously know what you're saying/etc and we're on the same page there.
Changing mind is nothing new/no big deal to smart people. Just saying that dogmatic views being the only reason people don't think differently isn't accurate. Though really you could have just thrown in "Of course this isn't the only reason people don't change their minds, Wario loses to Marth and it was something observable from the beginning/hasn't changed and is still the same" would have filled that up easy.

You can't nerf Shadow Ball + Hover + TP
Like bamesy said when Mewtwo first came out, if you give that combo to literally any character in Melee, they're a contender for being viable just by nature of those options regardless of the moveset around them. Hence it could bring so many balance issues longterm. He got hate for it overrating the character but there were some people that really picked up on it quick.

Like think about it, Peach with a Shadow Ball and TP is crazy broken. Make her control her float height too and it makes one of the most relentless offensive monsters around even scarier, even if she loses her jump in exchange so what lol.
Even if Bowser got this it would bring him up quite a bit obviously, though if he could keep UpB that would be great. That's stretching it since the bottom tiers = SO bad.
Even Fox getting SB instead of lasers and TP instead of Firefox I'd call that a buff, and I think Fox NEEDS lasers to win in PM. It's still a buff in my mind. That's how good that combo is with Hover into/out of/around those 2 moves.
That combo is HUGE and it's dangerous to give that to anyone and expect balance. Especially when the character is good AROUND/WITHOUT it.

Anyway, Mewtwo doesn't need massive nerfs. He's cool, most characters need to be cool. Sonic is cool too.
I just hope everything in the game gets nerfed a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitttle bit, because good characters that are good because all of them do epic cool things are better than good characters that are good because nobody does epic cool things.

I actually like mewtwo being able to act out of teleport - it's a cool mobility option that makes for some hype as hell combos and stuff.

If M2 doesn't want to fight, you can't fight him

slower characters can actually get in on the great white dingleberry. For starters, anyway.

That^
Doesn't commit because he can TP away and SB and you can't punish his TP because acting out into Hovers are too tricky to engage.
Not TP > Nair being non-committing, TP > Hover/SB is non-committing. TP > Nair is when he commits because you tried to engage and FAILED because he had TP > Hover/SB. lol

Slow characters, poor Ganon.

 

[EmptySky00]

I've beaten every Mario I've played aside from umbreon's pretty consistently. But worse players do better than they should because mu and Mario. If I played a top level Mario I cringe to think of how miserable it would be. And all because pill grab doesn't hurt link more than others doesn't diminish its potency. Pills at mid range do so damn much to cut out my options. He doesn't get combod hard at all. It's possible, but I can seldom even dthrow dair Empty Sky combo him because of his combo weight. And I can very rarely gimp him. And my kill combos are less effective on him than most others.


Oh. I don't think any matchup is unwinnable with link. He's so damn solid as a character that he can deal with bad MUs . Hard and disadvantageous doesn't mean undoable.

 

[didds]

just give ganon TP + Hover + SB

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'd be cool with a TP or SB on Bowser instead of Garbo Breath!

 

[Mr.Random]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ANPjqCMrsZIUX3AY7LZQrDCL3OaIaIHXqN2w8JPdzwY/edit?pli=1#gid=0
Apparently Fox loses to Kirby, Ike, Link, Mewtwo, and Yoshi. Wat?

 

[MLGF]

Well... Ike does do the whole chain grab thing like Marth... but with a quick draw.
So I think that may be arguable.

 

[Mr.Random]

Idk. PM is a crazy game. Calling MU's are always debatable unlike Melee.

 

[EmptySky00]

Fox does the whole shine pressure and hard to grab thing though.



Link may be borderline even though. But everyone ****ing says they lose to link #salt

And mewtwo isn't that far fetched.

 

[Mr.Random]

Glad to see Fox still beats Mario. Going to CP with him.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Fox:Kirby is like 75:25

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Hey so I was trying to think of the top tier characters. I watch a lot of competetive play from VGBootCamp and Clash Tournamets. Recently the characters that got into the Grand Finals the most were (in order) Diddy Kong, Mewtwo, Pit, Lucas. Fairly often Meta Knight, Kirby, Mario and Sonic. Make it to Grands.

Does this seem right with what everyone is speculating here for Top Tier?
A:
B:

can people give me more channels that put out super competitive PM tournies so I can go through those too?

I lurk this thread out of interest and sometimes for laughs but I just thought I'd say... Kirby isn't top tier. Not even close.

 

[Mr.Random]

Fox:Kirby is like 75:25

Fox completely ****s on Kirby. I swear I killed at 69% on FoD of all places.