Tier List Speculation

[Frost | Odds]

I mean, pretty much everybody poops on Kirby, but he's got absolutely nothing on fox.

 

[Osennecho]

I mean, pretty much everybody poops on Kirby, but he's got absolutely nothing on fox.

At least he isn't .
That aside, yah Kirby v Fox is def not even... Maybe if we are doing no LGL and the Kirby can camp the moment it gets a lead for the entire match without DQ?... But I feel like after someone camps a ledge 3+ minutes straight they are going to get DQ'd or at least lose that match due to stalling.

 

[EmptySky00]

Kirby is beat.

Dash attack safety and inhale grab armor are stupid though. But that's about it.

 

[shairn]

Dash attack on shield -> crouch is the bane of Marth.

 

[Mr.Random]

Not sure what the PMBR can do at this point without either pissing people who put time into their main or pissing people off who hate certain characters. Balancing is tough.

 

[Xcite]

Well... Ike does do the whole chain grab thing like Marth... but with a quick draw.
So I think that may be arguable.

I'm more or less sure that Ike has the easiest chaingrab to perform on spacies, almost free from what I can tell.

 

[MLGF]

If they mess up their DI then Ike gets a free up smash.

Yeah, if Marth soft counters Fox then so does Ike.
Ike has very similar tools to the ones that Marth when it comes to spacies.

Still loses to Falcon though.
This game is weird.

 

[Xcite]

Forget the up smash, it's all about the reverse bair hitbox. Practically a god send.

 

[Mr.Random]

I have a question. Why did they buff Mario in between 2.5-6 when he was fine in 2.5?
List of 2.6 changes (I don't agree with the bolded)
-Down Tilt can be interrupted sooner
-Down Tilt base knockback slightly increased, knockback growth slightly decreased, toe part of the leg sends at a straight up angle and each part more inwards on the leg sending at lower angles
-Down Tilt lower leg portion given short invulnerability frames during when the attack is out
-Up Smash functions like Melee Mario's Up Smash at the beginning but then changes back to Doctor Mario's Up Smash vs grounded opponents as he brings his head down in the front -- Vs aerial opponents it is still Mario's Up Smash
-Forward Aerial has a tweaked flash graphical effect over the fist
-Down Aerial lowest hitbox placement adjusted more towards the center
-Standing Grab box shifted outward slightly for more range
-Neutral B projectile slightly increased in damage, knockback growth slightly decreased to compensate
-Neutral B projectile no longer degrades in hitstun, size, or knockback as it bounces. Now uses a consistent set of hitstun, size, and knockback values
-Neutral B can be interrupted sooner
-Side B doesn't reverse controls/momentum for as long

 

[EmptySky00]

LOL THAT CHANGE LIST

That's so damn good. The neutral B ones make me smile.

 

[Mr.Random]

LOL THAT CHANGE LIST

That's so damn good. The neutral B ones make me smile.

Next demo it will have more hitstun and do 10 damage now. And you can cancel lag on landing.

 

[DMG]

they do, which is hilarious since mario wins that MU in this game and that basically every marth besides PP is terrible and he doesn't even play the game. it's like counterpicking yourself into an auto-loss.

I would pick a different MU to call auto loss than Mario v Marth. For either character. I agree with most of your Marth sentiments these days (including MK these days), but that one I'd disagree with. I think anything past 55:45 Mario's favor is probably riding the hype train too hard. I was very wrong about MK though, so I'm open on this one too.

Most Marth players are pretty bad in PM. It's kind of like Sheik: jumping and attacking are just too enticing and get us ****ed lol. Also don't spam DA with Kirby vs someone like Marth. Gimme 10 min and I'll probably get you a decent list of everything he can do to it, including different timings and spacings on his shield. Better god dang watch yourself Kirby Dash Attack! mains

 

[1FD]

Intangible
PLEASE intangibility come to fireballs, they will make good use of your intangibleness!

 

[DMG]

You make fireballs intangible, and I'll present you with the first universally banned Smash character

Or the first "Hotfixed quicker than Udyr" champ in Smash history

 

[shairn]

Also don't spam DA with Kirby vs someone like Marth. Gimme 10 min and I'll probably get you a decent list of everything he can do to it, including different timings and spacings on his shield. Better god dang watch yourself Kirby Dash Attack! mains

Yes please

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Intangible
PLEASE intangibility come to fireballs, they will make good use of your intangibleness!

 

[BluntedMask]

That would be dreadful.

 

[EmptySky00]

I think Fireballs and Fox lasers should have Ganon's Dair hitbox.

Just think. You can meteor spike their drinks with Doc's pills.

MALPRACTICE MAINS EVERYWHERE.

 

[Mr.Random]

Or we can give him Falco's lasers.

 

[EmptySky00]

Why are we trying to nerf him now?


OHHH I get it you want his pills to shoot lasers too! That's actually really good.

 

[DMG]

Nerf who? Everyone?

 

[EmptySky00]

Lasers < Pills
<_<
>_>

Edit: Lasers + Pills <<<< Pills with lasers
Balance restored.

 

[Zx2963]

I mean, pretty much everybody poops on Kirby, but he's got absolutely nothing on fox.

Kirby can 0 - death Fox really easy, inhale is so hard to break out of, that they can jump of the edge and when you break out to recover > dair you

 

[MLGF]

Can we get pills that explode into lasers?

 

[mimgrim]

All I want is Bowser with a projectile and more options when using Koopa Klaw. If that happened I would be content. :L

 

[KayB]

Intangible
PLEASE intangibility come to fireballs, they will make good use of your intangibleness!

M2K, is that you?

 

[Frost | Odds]

All I want is Bowser with a projectile and more options when using Koopa Klaw. If that happened I would be content. :L

Klaw is already his (second, sort of) best move. I don't think increasing his dependence on it is really wise. :<

 

[Rᴏb]

can bowser just be completely changed into a character that is good
keep the armor idea though, it's interesting

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Ugh. Wario's tilts are slllllloooww. Idk if Wario was meant to be played as an aerial character, but his ground game has the potential to be better. Speed up his tilts, give dsmash more range. I'm probably just playing him wrong trying to combo into an ftilt/fsamsh from his dash or dtilt, but Wario could be better.

 

[trash?]

wario's intentionally supposed to go for smashes more than tilts on the ground in neutral, tho. learn his DACUS, problem solved

 

[Bleck]

Wario's forward tilt wind-up lasts longer the longer the button is held.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Huh. I guess I was playing him wrong. Are his tilts just for situational purposes?

 

[trash?]

his claim to fame is what I've always lovingly referred to as being a fat jigglypuff. stick to the air, only go for ground options when necessary, get a rest with a bigger hitbox every couple of minutes, funtimes

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Wario's a little easier to control and stronger than jiggs IMO.
I just noticed that Wario stole jiggs Fsmash. Other than that, he's totes original and is a totes solid character. :3

 

[mimgrim]

Klaw is already his (second, sort of) best move. I don't think increasing his dependence on it is really wise. :<

It is in no way his second best move. No way in hell. Ftilt, Fair, Bair, dash attack, and Dtilt are all better.

can bowser just be completely changed into a character that is good

Which will probably result in me having to find a new main which was a pain the first time around with Project M.

I don't wanna go through that again. ;-;

 

[Bleck]

can bowser just be completely changed into a character that is good
keep the armor idea though, it's interesting

I'm all for this.

 

[jtm94]

Yeah I don't wanna have to change mains because of large changes either, but that seems to be the name of the game.

Also Mewtwo is amazing, changing it so he can't hover out of teleport doesn't do anything. I mean that helps in conversions and continued follow ups, but that and no double jump after teleport are needed to hinder just his recovery to a more worldly level. He also needs moves tweaked slightly such as increasing end lag on uair so it doesn't combo into itself like Marth uair if it was 4 times faster, and maybe more end lag on utilt so it can be punished better. It is worth noting his projectile is amazing, but probably won't get touched. It is not fireball level, but he can put it out in similar quantity.

 

[mimgrim]

I don't really mind it or oppose it.

I just know how hard it was for me to finally settle on a main. It would just be tiring to go through it again.

 

[McD]

If they fix the problem where Down-B's on platforms act as aerials instead of grounded specials then Bowsers Down+B+Up Cancel is incredible. Bowser imo is very powerful where he is, he lives extremely long, has an U-Air that is godlike, has a mid-air grab, and on top of that and much more he has super armour...
Insane!

 

[Mera Mera]

That^
Doesn't commit because he can TP away and SB and you can't punish his TP because acting out into Hovers are too tricky to engage.
Not TP > Nair being non-committing, TP > Hover/SB is non-committing. TP > Nair is when he commits because you tried to engage and FAILED because he had TP > Hover/SB. lol

I actually think taking away his shadow ball or making it only usable fully charged or something would be an interesting nerf. I think his movement options are really interesting, and if they have be nerfed to fix the character, so be it. But if nerfing or even removing shadow ball would do it, I'd prefer that.

I also think an up air nerf would be pretty reasonable.

All invincible ledge stalls should be nerfed as a general mechanic... like maybe make it so you don't keep getting invincibility if you grab ledge x number of times without landing on the stage or getting hit.

I just started taking Mewtwo more seriously lately, so I do have a bias for wanting to keep him somewhat intact. That said I also personally think he's top 3 or 4.