Tier List Speculation

[Gust14]

I'm repeating myself because clearly you are not grasping what I am saying. You are yearning for a Zelda that has more in common with her Melee incarnation but refusing to acknowledge that Lightning Kicks are all that Melee Zelda had. Considering her Lightning Kicks are still deadly moves in PM, the PMBR DID take what she had in Melee and built off of that by making the rest of her moveset not garbage.

Seriously dude, you're not making any sense. If you can't see why at this point, then I'm done. This is getting monotonous.

Then im done too. If all you can do is scrap the surface of what im saying and If you cant see other redeemable qualities for zelda than her lightning kicks theres no point on going on

 

[Gust14]

I like how the game "takes too long because characters keep recovering" while at the same time "every character can just kill you off a grab via auto combos"

I smell bull****

I dont think these two things cancel each other. No bull**** detected

 

[Deleted member]

you genuinely have no clue how incredibly obnoxious you sound every time you talk like this, do you?

You are obviously only interested in attempting to insult me and not an actual discussion. Buh-bye.

Then im done too. If all you can do is scrap the surface of what im saying and If you cant see other redeemable qualities for zelda than her lightning kicks theres no point on going on

She didn't have any other redeemable qualities in Melee.

Please make a list of everything good you think she had in Melee that she has not retained in PM.

 

[MLGF]

Well she's a bit lighter, as Melee Zelda isn't weighed down by salt.

 

[ELI-mination]

I dont think these two things cancel each other. No bull**** detected

If you ko someone from a grab via auto death combo, then they are dead aka not coming back aka not living forever via recovering.
Aka bull**** detected.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

Samus is god-tier. Thank you. (This is a joke just in case you were wondering)

Anywho, Zelda is a topic best left to the future since Zelda, I believe, has yet to be played to her near best. Until then, I propose we talk about Samus.

 

[trash?]

You are obviously only interested in attempting to insult me and not an actual discussion. Buh-bye.

I'm interested in the fact that you seem genuinely tone-deaf to why people might not like you, when you're explicitly obnoxious about people not liking your character every single time it's brought up, because what people think doesn't align with your thoughts

this is kind of a problem because it's made every discussion about zelda into a slapfest of people who suspiciously only ever play zelda vs. everyone else

If you ko someone from a grab via auto death combo, then they are dead aka not coming back aka not living forever via recovering.
Aka bull**** detected.

note that, if you went damage-for-damage in melee, it was actually relatively slow most top-tier characters only had a handful of kill options, and the reason you don't see sheik only killing with fair is b/c, again, she can just tap you off the stage and make sure you never come back. the only way melee had the really-really fast pace people always imply is through edgeguarding, and hard-damage on-stage combos don't really make up for the average player not edgeguarding as well in PM

this isn't to say that I think there's auto combos (especially when ppl complain about wario, like that dude has more variance in his combos than any melee vet), but they could certainly exist together

 

[Master WGS]

Real glad this thread is my Smashmod forum legacy.

Anyway, on-topic:
So long as Zelda (and by extension Sheik) is actually two characters, she'll never be fair.

(drops mic)

 

[ELI-mination]

The bull**** I'm referring to detecting isn't that good recoveries exist (extremely overrated btw, learn to ****ing edgeguard) while auto death combos exist simultaneously (except when people learn how to DI), but the complaints about the game taking too long. By that logic you should be auto comboing your opponents to death every match regardless of their recoveries, so the matches would finish rather quickly.

 

[Deleted member]

this is kind of a problem because it's made every discussion about zelda into a slapfest of people who suspiciously only ever play zelda vs. everyone else

You got one thing right - these arguments always end up pitting the people who actually enjoy Zelda against the people who do not main the character, have not put time into the character, will never put time into the character, and yet somehow think they know better than the Zelda mains and should have an equal say in how she is designed and developed. I'm glad that you're admitting that this community is rampant with pompous people who cannot fathom the idea that they might not be experts on everything.

Honestly, at this point, the only person I'm open to having an actual discussion with is Umbreon since even though we disagree on a lot of things, he actually seems to care about the character's fate and has put time into trying to play her. (Umbreon, if you're ever interested, I'll send a PM your way sometime.)
The rest of you can continue to pat each other on the back every time you insult the Zelda players who only want to preserve what they like about the character. Thank you for making us feel like valued members of the PM community.

 

[didds]

The only change I would make to Zelda is giving her a pair of pants and a gattling gun

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I think frame 1 is fine if the move can't be jump canceled, and if it can, it has to be at least a few frames later (Brawl had it at 6 frames, if I recall).

Consider it this way; if it can't be jump-canceled, it can only really be used defensively. If it can be jump-canceled, but the hitbox comes out later, then it can't be used defensively, 'cause it won't reliably outspeed every other move in the game, forcing people to only use it for offensive purposes. However, losing that speed may also mean that it's just plain not as reliable as a way to setup omnidirectionally, while also sacrificing the defensive aspect.

I think the only reasonable course of action regarding Fox' reflector would be to make it so you can no longer jump-cancel it. (But that'll never happen, 'cause muh melee)

Sorry Bleck, I planned on responding to your post yesterday, but I procrastinated quite a bit unfortunately. Anyway, that's an interesting opinion, though I think 6 frames is a bit much. I feel like 3 or 4 would be a good middle ground to consider.

Now if I had to pick one of your proposed options, I'd go with the more offensive approach. Reason being is that if you make shine into a wholly defensive move, you give fox more of an incentive to play a campy, kinda passive aggressive game against you. Because of it being un jump cancelable, fox isn't going to risk getting close to you unless he has to, because of how hard everyone combos him, and the fact he has to commit to his shine. With the offensive version however, he is encouraged to, if he uses it correctly, to go in despite the ever present danger of getting his fall speed abused. Because in that scenario, even though he has to be more careful with it since it's slower, he should still be able to pressure shields and get a good setup for a string, possibly converting to a kill.

Basically it allows fox to keep the same style of play, but forces him to be more thoughtful in his application of his shine, as opposed to him just handing you a pair of sunglasses because of the excessive amounts of blue hexagons on the screen.

 

[ELI-mination]

Give her a sword
Because hyrule warriors
Because sakurai

 

[didds]

BECUSS FAX!

 

[DMG]

Because Car-Fax? Check their mascot, it's ****in Fox

 

[Gust14]

She didn't have any other redeemable qualities in Melee.

Please make a list of everything good you think she had in Melee that she has not retained in PM.

First off, let me start by saying that the only viable moves for her in melee where her kicks (and dsmash to a degree), in general her moveset was bad, and theres no denying that. When i say redeemable I mean mediocre-bad moves that are unique and have potential to become viable with some polishing. Maybe like Roys dair, it was bad and they upgraded it while retaining the basic aspects of the move.

Like her dtilt, it stopped attackers on their feet and racked damage, theres potential in that and it could be morphed into a real defensive tool (like ganons jab or smthng). Her upair could be similar to bowsers' slow but powerfull (and btw thats what i meant with high risk/reward, like her brawl/pm sidesmash), and her dair is a meteor which could be further implemented into her gameplay.

And you have to accept that zelda mains arent the only ones who can have opinios on her future. People isnt asking for changes just because, is fighting AGAINST her what annoys many.

(On another note, degrading your right to defend your pov is as bad as calling others' ideas stupid. Good manners are as important as good argumentation to any healthy debate)

 

[Mr.Random]

I think we can all agree that Ike Climbers are broken. How broken would Fox Climbers be? lol

 

[Soft Serve]

Well excuse me for enjoying my main and not wanting her to significantly change. When people post things about my character that I feel are ignorant or incorrect, I have a right to disagree and defend the character I have put a lot of time into. If you're annoyed by that, then please feel free to exit the conversation.

I wish i could say this whenever someone says something about fox

But id get knifed in my sleep for it.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Y'all are just boring me with this Zelda talk. No offense.

Anyway, I'm just curious about where Tink should be placed on the tier list since he has gotten some slight improvements from the previous versions. Maybe the Link-Tink MU could be 50-50?

 

[Mr.Random]

I'm excited to see how Ganon and Falcon were slightly improved.

 

[DMG]

>Ganon
>"Slightly" anything

Ganon goes big or he goes home

 

[Vashimus]

Because Car-Fax? Check their mascot, it's ****in Fox

"Show me the Star Fox!"

 

[Deleted member]

First off, let me start by saying that the only viable moves for her in melee where her kicks (and dsmash to a degree), in general her moveset was bad, and theres no denying that.

Then I have no idea why you were arguing with me considering you actually agree with me about Melee Zelda.

When i say redeemable I mean mediocre-bad moves that are unique and have potential to become viable with some polishing. Maybe like Roys dair, it was bad and they upgraded it while retaining the basic aspects of the move.

They did take her mediocre moves and polished them to give them use. Take her F-tilt for example, which was a bad KO move in Melee but was given a useful KB angle in PM when sweetspotted. Take her F-smash, whose multi-hits actually connect properly now. Take her N-air, which has better hitbox coverage overall and a useful landing hitbox. Again, I have no idea what you are arguing about.

Like her dtilt, it stopped attackers on their feet and racked damage, theres potential in that and it could be morphed into a real defensive tool (like ganons jab or smthng).

Zelda's defensive playstyle is one of the reasons so many people hate her, so why are you suggesting giving Zelda another good defensive tool to add on to the hate? Her D-tilt already has a use, being one of the few moves of hers that can actually combo into another move (such as U-tilt) at certain percents.

Her upair could be similar to bowsers' slow but powerfull (and btw thats what i meant with high risk/reward, like her brawl/pm sidesmash)

And this just proves that you don't really know what you are talking about. First of all, her Up-air is already slow but powerful. The difference between hers and Bowser's Up-air is that Bowser's is even slower but doesn't require a sweetspot to be powerful. Are you suggesting that they make Zelda's Up-air even slower but even more powerful and remove the sweetspot mechanic? What exactly is that going to do for her?

Second of all, her F-smash is not what most people would consider a high risk/high reward move. It has nice, disjointed range and is safe on shield.

(On another note, degrading your right to defend your pov is as bad as calling others' ideas stupid. Good manners are as important as good argumentation to any healthy debate)

And you need to realize that just because you have formed an opinion on something, that doesn't necessarily mean it is a valid opinion. You do not know as much about Zelda as you think you do.

 

[CBO0tz]

Uh, where's Samus on the OP's tier list?

 

[Deleted member]

Uh, where's Samus on the OP's tier list?

The OP is severely outdated. Samus wasn't available to play at the time.

 

[Zx2963]

I'm excited to see how Ganon and Falcon were slightly improved.

How do you know that?

 

[DMG]

I won't/can't speak about the Ganon stuff

But Ganon got some Ganon added and this will instill Ganon into the opponent's Ganon

 

[CORY]

i have seen the future.

and it is REDACTED

 

[Rᴏb]

Apparently they gave Ganon better movement in a way you wouldn't expect.

 

[DMG]

>Yursaman's last post
>Not enough Ganon or redactions

Ur doing it wrong

 

[Phyanketto]

Where would you guys put Roy?

 

[DMG]

Sethlon/Flare Blade

 

[TreK]

Roy's onstage game is top 10 easily, but getting hit turns him into a bottom tier until the next stock.

 

[DMG]

I dunno about top 10 (onstage, not top 10 as a complete char obv) easy. You'd have to think a bit imo.

You got 3 Spacies, probably Sheik and MK, arguably characters like Mario Pit Ivy, and characters totally up for grabs like M2 Link Marth Samus etc (how good or bad you wanna rate them in neutral or what traits you value more). Def agree that he's one of the worst characters in the game when getting hit or thrown.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

Does Roy have any decent approach options against characters like M2 or Sheik or is he practically a sitting duck against projectiles?

 

[DMG]

Sitting duck no

But it's gotta be one immense degree of god damn annoying to deal with Mario Fireballs or similar projectiles if you are little Roy-kun.

 

[CyberZixx]

i have seen the future.

and it is REDACTED

Wait, Redacted will be added to Project M?

 

[Zx2963]

Sitting duck no

But it's gotta be one immense degree of god damn annoying to deal with Mario Fireballs or similar projectiles if you are little Roy-kun.

Dancing Blade?

 

[CyberZixx]

Dancing blade gotta be the worst move Roy has to deal with projectiles. Like the legit worse. I'd try and upsmash them before DB. Reason being DB don't clash with projectiles.

 

[mimgrim]

It's called Double Edge Dance, people. Get it right at least.

And yea, it doesn't work against projectiles.