Tier List Speculation

[Mr.Random]

Eh, the chaingrab still works at high level play, though. M2K's Mario would be downthrowing that MK all over the place as well.

Point is Updog is sloppy and spams pills while Boss is smart when using them and aims them while sometimes not using them at all because he knows spamming is punishable.
Here's another example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-JG_W8pZGM
At the beginning you see him start spamming fireballs but Chillin started punishes him and catching on to his patterns. You have to be unpredictable when you throw out fireballs and be a good distance away, similar to Zelda's dins.

 

[jtm94]

Mario's fireball is safer than Zelda's dins. Fireball is just bad in the MUs mario has some trouble with, but he has tons of tools to deal with the MU in other ways.

Mario would need no buffs after the change Umbreon suggested. The point is that Mario is absolutely amazing, not that he needs rebalancing. He needs to LOSE something, and gain nothing in return. I also agree it was a forgiving change.

Diddy may also need to lose something, but I don't know how good he seems once his recovery is cut in a quarter to warrant other hits.

Psionic gets Zelda. It was a good post.

 

[Ace55]

I'm a little late but when Mango said he'd rather have 0% shines than no invincibility did he realize that shieldstun is directly linked to percent?

 

[Phan7om]

Im sure he did, hes Mango, but idk... maybe somehow it went over his head lmao.

 

[Gust14]

This is so stupid. First of all, Zelda's "high risk" strategy in Melee amounted to "spam Lightning Kicks." You know, she can do the exact same thing in PM if you so wish. You won't get far though because that strategy sucks. Always has and always will. She is not the opposite of her Melee self because she can do everything she could do before (which wasn't much) and more. Second of all, Zelda is a defensive character. Defensive characters do not lend themselves to typical high risk/high reward playstyles. You have dozens of other more offensive characters to choose from, so stop trying to take a defensive character and shove her into your preferred role.

Yeesh, people are such whiny airheads when it comes to Zelda. At this point I'm hoping she stays the same just to spite you all.

Look high risk/reward doesnt means spam lightning kicks (maybe it was naive to think everyone understands the terminology). She doesnt play like her melee or her brawl counterparts at all, while PM mario is a buffed melee mario, same as link, zelda got Teledashing, dins spam, hitboxes everywhere which have being called annoying and have generated controversy. Most melee veterans retained their identities and became better by the buffing of their weakest moves, why zelda should be left aside when even bowser got this treatment? If you want new shinny stuff: You have dozens of other newcomers to choose from, so stop trying to take a classic character and shove her into your preferred role.

Still toxic characters have become less toxic which each iteration of PM, so only good things we can expect.
(Such a toxic response from a main of such a toxic character, now I see why they told me to stay away from this thread)

 

[Osennecho]

Mario in this game still loses to Captain Falcon

....What?...

 

[Deleted member]

Mario in this game still loses to Captain Falcon, Marth (Worse MU), and Sheik while also having issues with Mewtwo, Ivysaur, and Roy.

No. Just no.

My key point is that Zelda benefits the most (i.e. optimizes reward) when her opponent is playing defensively, not when she is, which is why it is important that Zelda's gameplan revolve around forcing her opponent to play defensively. In fact, the good defense might as well be there just to give her more chances to initiate her own offense, rather than dictate playstyle. As has been brought up before, this is why her control of the game folds to characters that are simply too quick to trap in a disadvantageous defensive position. For those matchups only, I would consider Zelda a defensive character, possibly helped along by the fact that in several of them she suddenly finds her strongest combo starter to be an OoS option.

On another note, the concept of fixating balance around some arbitrary risk/reward ratio is completely useless. Safety will always be excessively favored, because getting any hit at all, as long as it isn't punishable, is more than enough reward to win a match.

Holy ****.

 

[Rᴏb]

What's the point of discussing Zelda's current design when we all know it's dead?

 

[steelguttey]

Look high risk/reward doesnt means spam lightning kicks (maybe it was naive to think everyone understands the terminology). She doesnt play like her melee or her brawl counterparts at all, while PM mario is a buffed melee mario, same as link, zelda got Teledashing, dins spam, hitboxes everywhere which have being called annoying and have generated controversy. Most melee veterans retained their identities and became better by the buffing of their weakest moves, why zelda should be left aside when even bowser got this treatment? If you want new shinny stuff: You have dozens of other newcomers to choose from, so stop trying to take a classic character and shove her into your preferred role.

Still toxic characters have become less toxic which each iteration of PM, so only good things we can expect.
(Such a toxic response from a main of such a toxic character, now I see why they told me to stay away from this thread)

the problem with taking the approach you said is that it just doesnt work for zelda.

lets take the examples you gave. mario, link and bowser. all of these characters had identity's of how they should play already. mario was about spacing fireballs and a really good combo game and overall amazing tools but lack of kos. this can easily be buffed and look at him now. i will bet you that every melee dr mario/mario main shed a tear when looking at pm mario. link is about controlling space with projectiles then killing with hard hitting but slow sword moves. again, this is apparent in pm. boomerang (although a little too much) controls space and fair and fsmash are amazing kill moves that are pretty punishable. bowser is a turtle character that doesnt approach and makes the enemy approach them with moves that do ridiculous damage. this is, again buffed in pm (though not very effective)

zelda... didnt really have anything special about her. she had a ****ty projectile, good recovery and two really good aerial ko moves. there wasnt really an "identity" for PMBR to keep. i cant blame them for starting from scratch tbh

 

[Mr.Random]

No. Just no.



Holy ****.

I hate replies like these. Instead of no and this is why. It's just no you're wrong that's it. Explain why he doesn't lose to them because from my experience, although winnable, he does lose to them. -1

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I hate replies like these. Instead of no and this is why. It's just no you're wrong that's it. Explain why he doesn't lose to them because from my experience, although winnable, he does lose to them. -1

That's about all you get from. That how he thinks mario op, slaps Marth etc

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ Mr.Random
Mario at least doesn't lose to Falcon, or why do you think a character with generally less tools, no projectile, a linear recovery and a linear neutral game can win against Mario.
Also don't be salty at @Umbreon he probably already wrote multiple posts about this (I remember many of his posts being very detailed and good) and is somehow annoyed of repeating himself.

 

[Deleted member]

Look high risk/reward doesnt means spam lightning kicks (maybe it was naive to think everyone understands the terminology). She doesnt play like her melee or her brawl counterparts at all, while PM mario is a buffed melee mario, same as link, zelda got Teledashing, dins spam, hitboxes everywhere which have being called annoying and have generated controversy. Most melee veterans retained their identities and became better by the buffing of their weakest moves, why zelda should be left aside when even bowser got this treatment? If you want new shinny stuff: You have dozens of other newcomers to choose from, so stop trying to take a classic character and shove her into your preferred role.

Still toxic characters have become less toxic which each iteration of PM, so only good things we can expect.
(Such a toxic response from a main of such a toxic character, now I see why they told me to stay away from this thread)

You refuted exactly zero of my points and your logic is still non-existant. Zelda is not the opposite of her Brawl or Melee incarnations. In Brawl and Melee, she couldn't actually do anything but try to spam lightning kicks and hope for the best. That was her "identity." You can still play her exactly the same way as you could in Melee and Brawl if you so wish, and you'll predictably end up with similarly crappy results.

The only thing toxic here is people like you who think they know all there is to know about a character even though you clearly know nothing.

 

[trash?]

I am almost certain that you only post on these boards when someone complains about zelda

she's boring as hell, I wouldn't mind a change, and considering zhime was whining about the next version, a change is almost guaranteed, so welp

 

[MLGF]

I feel she is extremely skewed on matchups.
She beats some characters really well and loses to others badly.

Yeah, I know I say that about a lot of characters, but Zelda is an extreme.

Shielda is really good and extremely underutilized though

 

[NickRiddle]

Mario in this game still loses to Falco, Fox, Captain Falcon, Marth (Worse MU), and Sheik while also having issues with Mewtwo, Ivysaur, and Roy. These characters keep Mario from being amazing and put him in the very good section instead.

You know that Mario grabs Roy and kills him, right?
I don't see him having any issues with that MU.

 

[Deleted member]

I am almost certain that you only post on these boards when someone complains about zelda

she's boring as hell, I wouldn't mind a change, and considering zhime was whining about the next version, a change is almost guaranteed, so welp

Because it sucks to have people who do not play a character I personally enjoy complain about said character and demand drastic, ill-informed changes. Yeah, I post a lot in response to comments about Zelda because I main her. What would you rather me post about - characters I have no experience using? Or maybe I should just shut up and let the people who don't play the character run the show. To hell with my own enjoyment of this game.

Hey, I don't really have any interest in using Kirby, but maybe I should start advocating for significant Kirby changes which will completely change the manner in which the character is played. You know, the character you have put a lot of effort into and enjoy playing as? Walk a mile in somebody else's shoes before you start mouthing off.

I swear, this community never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

I still don't understand why people have such gripes about Zelda.

Seriously, she's not that hard to deal with if you don't play like a dingus.

 

[Mr.Random]

@ Mr.Random
Mario at least doesn't lose to Falcon, or why do you think a character with generally less tools, no projectile, a linear recovery and a linear neutral game can win against Mario.
Also don't be salty at @Umbreon he probably already wrote multiple posts about this (I remember many of his posts being very detailed and good) and is somehow annoyed of repeating himself.

Where in my post am I salty? I'm just saying don't put "No" and not explain. Falcon has speed, easy combos, and all his aerials out prioritize fireballs and out range Mario. @ NickRiddle Mario vs Marth -2 for Mario but vs Roy I'd argue in some areas it's better and in some areas it is worse. How it is better is like you said. One grab = a lot of percent and easy edgeguards. But on the other side it's the same problem as Marth, getting out ranged by every thing and unlike Marth, Roy combo's Mario even better and can combo him to death.

 

[NickRiddle]

No, one grab actually kills Roy.
CG > Fair/F-smash 0-deaths him.

 

[Zx2963]

Where in my post am I salty? I'm just saying don't put "No" and not explain. Falcon has speed, easy combos, and all his aerials out prioritize fireballs and out range Mario. @ NickRiddle Mario vs Marth -2 for Mario but vs Roy I'd argue in some areas it's better and in some areas it is worse. How it is better is like you said. One grab = a lot of percent and easy edgeguards. But on the other side it's the same problem as Marth, getting out ranged by every thing and unlike Marth, Roy combo's Mario even better and can combo him to death.

I'm pretty sure Mario wins against Falcon because all Mario needs to do is cape Falcon's recovery, as well as the fact that Falcon can be CG'd.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Where in my post am I salty? I'm just saying don't put "No" and not explain. Falcon has speed, easy combos, and all his aerials out prioritize fireballs and out range Mario. @ NickRiddle Mario vs Marth -2 for Mario but vs Roy I'd argue in some areas it's better and in some areas it is worse. How it is better is like you said. One grab = a lot of percent and easy edgeguards. But on the other side it's the same problem as Marth, getting out ranged by every thing and unlike Marth, Roy combo's Mario even better and can combo him to death.

Salty was the wrong word, sry.
About Falcon, Mario's movement game can make his neutral game, mixed with fireballs, be stronger and being more open to using different options than Falcon's. Mario's combos on Falcon are as strong as the other way around (chaingrabs -> up-airs), while Mario clearly has the recovery advantage.
About Marth I have made a post claiming Marth only has a slight advantage over Mario:

Spoiler

*Quoting a post from the Mario matchup thread by @ Hinichii.ez.™ claiming Marth destroys Mario*
It is a good post with some little inaccuracies. I agree with most points, but you seem to underestimate that Marios neutral game is buffed by the fact that if the players move contrary because they both expected an attack Mario has the fireball again, and now you can stand at ~1.5 tipper f-smash lengths waiting for him to deal with it and then punish.
About projectile pressure, I normally think of it as two lines, one that signals that if you are closer you can't projectile without getting punished and the other one signalising the other player that if he is closer he can't choose easy evading options without getting punished.
Normally, the zone between these lines is a room for the approacher to utilize his entire neutral game toolset if it is the safe zone for him, and if the zone gives the projectile-player the advantage that causes the approacher to have serious problems surpassing that zone.
While normally Marth's ability to clank unpunished lasts longer than Mario's ability to fireball unpunished, while Marth is dashing back this is not the case. And in neutral game you often dashdance so that is a chance for Mario to capitalize.
One method to bait the dash back out is a low-distance WD back and then dash in (first to avoid the expected grab, and now you threaten a grab / run-cancel d-smash yourself. Marth probably doesn't want to commit to an attack so he will retreat, to which you will respond with a sh (hold back during jumpsquat frames) fireball. There are many more options to bait this out (many crouch setups to threaten CC while you need him to be unsure if his grab will miss because of your WD backs) if you dig deep into the meta.

Also, about your pressure, you also underestimate that whenever you force Marth into his shield you are probably able to weaken his stage position because of the WD back, even if you are not able to get the hit. If you then take space (little dash, WD with low distance forward) and continue neutral game, the chance of winning it will increase (less dash back abililties limit Marths options), the risk-reward ration turns even more in your favour because if you get hit there, your chances to recover are significantly worse.

Mario's huge combo ability on Marth doesn't get enough credit, and so does the fact you have to work for your kills less (d-throw/d-tilt ->fair, edgeguards).

Overall, your post is pretty good and I might be a bit nitpicky, the MU is still slightly advantegous for Marth but not a matchup to switch characters for, which is my main point.

 

[Gust14]

You refuted exactly zero of my points and your logic is still non-existant. Zelda is not the opposite of her Brawl or Melee incarnations. In Brawl and Melee, she couldn't actually do anything but try to spam lightning kicks and hope for the best. That was her "identity." You can still play her exactly the same way as you could in Melee and Brawl if you so wish, and you'll predictably end up with similarly crappy results.

The only thing toxic here is people like you who think they know all there is to know about a character even though you clearly know nothing.

Dude i already heard that, no need to repeat yourself. Why you keep saying i want her to be a spam-kicks robot? who would want that? wth? Ness, mr G&W; they also didnt have much going on in their previous versions, now theyre capable fighters using the moves they already had. They extracted the very few qualities of their moves and made full fleshed movesets for PM.

And to the people who think im saying shes broken, shes not. Shes just a polarizing character. Some consider some of her moves boring/annoying/gimmicky. Im just proposing an alternative solution based on the previous work the PMBR has done. She doesnt even need to be redone completely.

(And calm down, I know this is the internet but at least try to have some decency).

 

[Zx2963]

Zelda is a boring character, all you need is a ditto to figure that one out

 

[EclipseKirby]

No, one grab actually kills Roy.
CG > Fair/F-smash 0-deaths him.

This assumes ideal conditions for Mario, which in this case is being on FD in the center. That chain grab is deadly, but it's definitely doable to avoid that much damage, unless the Roy let the Mario have those ideal conditions.

 

[trash?]

Hey, I don't really have any interest in using Kirby, but maybe I should start advocating for significant Kirby changes which will completely change the manner in which the character is played. You know, the character you have put a lot of effort into and enjoy playing as? Walk a mile in somebody else's shoes before you start mouthing off.

bruh I was the one asking for notable kirby changes like ten pages ago

quit moaning, learn to adapt to changes, they're inevitable in a game that's currently a demo version

 

[Vashimus]

I feel she is extremely skewed on matchups.
She beats some characters really well and loses to others badly.

Yeah, I know I say that about a lot of characters, but Zelda is an extreme.

This is almost universally the case with nearly every defensive character in practically any fighter. Some matchups are free wins, others are very difficult. It just comes with the territory by virtue of their design.

Like I've said before, strong defensive characters and Project M players just don't get along.

 

[Deleted member]

quit moaning, learn to adapt to changes, they're inevitable in a game that's currently a demo version

Well excuse me for enjoying my main and not wanting her to significantly change. When people post things about my character that I feel are ignorant or incorrect, I have a right to disagree and defend the character I have put a lot of time into. If you're annoyed by that, then please feel free to exit the conversation.

 

[trash?]

you also apparently have a right to kick and scream like a baby every time the conversation comes up, don't mind me if I find you sad for it

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Thing is YOU DO need to use fireballs thoughtfully and aim them correctly against the good players because they will punish you for spamming them.

I'm still unconvinced Mr.Random, what I got from those matches is quite the opposite from the point you're trying to make. But this debate about mario fireballs has already been done to death, and you've already agreed that it would be fair for his fireballs to have an adjustment. So I'm not going to debate any further on the matter, unless you feel it necessary to off this thread, which would be perfectly fine.

Mario in this game still loses to Falco, Fox, Captain Falcon, Marth (Worse MU), and Sheik while also having issues with Mewtwo, Ivysaur, and Roy. These characters keep Mario from being amazing and put him in the very good section instead.

I disagree with your matchup spread as well. Falco, fox, and falcon don't have anything specifically extreme over mario. The combos against him aren't as bad as what they do to other characters, and I'd argue that he combos them all harder, with them being fast fallers and him being at an odd floatyish weight. He can also gimp them way easier than any of them could him. So I'd say he wins over falcon, falco could go either way but should be pretty even, and he loses to fox but not by much. I personally find marth difficult with any character I use, so I can't give an unbiased opinion on that. Sheik is also pretty evenish, neither of the characters have anything too polarizing on each other, and I've never personally had trouble in that matchup. Mewtwo I can see as being a bad, ivy as well, mostly because of their range, and how difficult it is to combo and gimp them. Roy is either in mario's favor or even, I don't have too much experience in this matchup, but again, I feel like mario's strings are better than his opponent's, and his edge guard game is leagues better than roy's.

 

[jtm94]

Whatever happens, happens. There is literally nothing we can do, but skew the inevitable.

I personally love playing Zelda, and the ditto isn't that bad, but if you're playing the way people think she should be played there will be excess camping and dins and it will be lame. At least she doesn't have a fast run speed and a projectile that can't be clanked...

Characters sometimes do need changes that will alter their meta game for the better. Look at Ganon and Bowser. They can be played alright at high levels and such, but no matter what they will have terrible MUs because of their size, immobility, weight, and lackluster recoveries. Sometimes characters are made to be agressive so they are given tools to aid in that, but sometimes such as in Zelda's case camping seems like the correct thing to do with her moveset, even if it won't work at higher levels, it jjust might not be good for the game in general.

I know the game is not designed around lower level performance, but getting new players into the game is always important. If a character has elements that make newcomers not want to play at all then maybe something could be tweaked to help with that. Or maybe not and we just say forget the noobs.

Also on Mario I agree with Sheik being evenish.... maybe slight in Mario's favor. I cringe everytime I'm offstage against Mario because I am so dead from his bair and just need to hope he misses. Mario also has to beat Roy. Roy doesn't have a fair as fast as Marth's to cut through projectiles and it can be punished that much easier.

 

[ELI-mination]

I like how the game "takes too long because characters keep recovering" while at the same time "every character can just kill you off a grab via auto combos"

I smell bull****

 

[Deleted member]

Dude i already heard that, no need to repeat yourself. Why you keep saying i want her to be a spam-kicks robot? who would want that? wth? Ness, mr G&W; they also didnt have much going on in their previous versions, now theyre capable fighters using the moves they already had. They extracted the very few qualities of their moves and made full fleshed movesets for PM.

I'm repeating myself because clearly you are not grasping what I am saying. You are yearning for a Zelda that has more in common with her Melee incarnation but refusing to acknowledge that Lightning Kicks are all that Melee Zelda had. Considering her Lightning Kicks are still deadly moves in PM, the PMBR DID take what she had in Melee and built off of that by making the rest of her moveset not garbage.

Seriously dude, you're not making any sense. If you can't see why at this point, then I'm done. This is getting monotonous.

you also apparently have a right to kick and scream like a baby every time the conversation comes up, don't mind me if I find you sad for it

I'm sad because I'm defending what I enjoy about this game? Good to know.

Did you hear that PM community? Nobody better argue against any potential change again lest Canon accuse you of being pathetic. All suggested changes, no matter how significant, must be embraced!

 

[Deleted member]

You refuted exactly zero of my points and your logic is still non-existant. Zelda is not the opposite of her Brawl or Melee incarnations. In Brawl and Melee, she couldn't actually do anything but try to spam lightning kicks and hope for the best. That was her "identity." You can still play her exactly the same way as you could in Melee and Brawl if you so wish, and you'll predictably end up with similarly crappy results.

The only thing toxic here is people like you who think they know all there is to know about a character even though you clearly know nothing.

while you're at it you should refute my stance on zelda's stage control, since player results matter more than someone's actual argument. i was the best melee zelda player in the world in the MLG golden era so clearly i know nothing about how zelda plays.

 

[DMG]

I went to a Smash tourney this weekend. I come back and this thread is like "Captain Falcon drop zone Knee-ing a Falco at 20% for the kill" balls deep into Zelda talks. Mostly Zelda hate and praise for the changes.

I'm all about the Zelda hate. Ladies and gentlemen this was a great weekend.

 

[trash?]

Did you hear that PM community? Nobody better argue against any potential change again lest Canon accuse you of being pathetic. All suggested changes, no matter how significant, must be embraced!

you genuinely have no clue how incredibly obnoxious you sound every time you talk like this, do you?

also woah dang umbreon played zelda in the old MLG days? I want to see that

 

[didds]

I still don't understand why people have such gripes about Zelda.

Seriously, she's not that hard to deal with if you don't play like a dingus.

Yesssssss, anyone who uses the term dingus deserves ten likes, regardless of post content.

 

[Deleted member]

The fact that you were the best Melee Zelda player really doesn't interest me. I know how Melee Zelda played, but we are no longer using Melee Zelda.

 

[didds]

Oh yea, tier list, Zelda is bad. She's in a dress. How can you fight in a dress? Oh I eat a lightning toe? whatever ma'am, I see london I see france.

#freeunknown

 

[steelguttey]

I still don't understand why people have such gripes about Zelda.

Seriously, she's not that hard to deal with if you don't play like a dingus.

coming from the goddamn ganon player this is pretty big lol