Tier List Speculation

[Soft Serve]

I was about to make a huge post about what I thought Fox should turn into, maintaining what was fun about fox (rewarding combos that were hit-confirmed from shine, strong and enjoyable stock ending power through shine gimps and a satisfying up-smash, great mobility and effective but difficult offensive potential) while toneing down parts of fox that he doesn't need, while still maintaining what is fun about him (laser damage, shine damage, maybe even nair damage [although those last 2 would mess up the frames on his shield pressure] to reduce the speed at which the brings you to up-smash percent, side-b and up-b comboing into up-smash/uair, that kind of stuff)

but like the thread is too cyclical there is no point.
1) someone tries to voice serious concerns about a character
2) "but fox," the poster said as he beats the dead horse
3) then it turns into more spacie talk with one side just complaining, and the other side saying "yeah, fox is stupid, and he WILL get addressed some more, stop derailing every topic"

My fox changes:

Spoiler

Things left alone: shine combos. mobility. upair/up smash. shield pressure. the things that make Fox fun and rewarding.

things that should be toned down: His damage output. Instead of nerfing up-smash, leave it strong and fun and just hit lasers more and nair and shine. Its okay honestly if the damage on nair/shine goes down and that hurts his shield pressure, because its a frame trap already.
Recovery comboing into his kill moves. Pretty obvious.

This stuff would still make fox fun and rewarding, without being overly stupid. I don't even think Fox is the best character in PM. Its been argued recently by top players that even in Melee he loses overall to marth (hax,Westballz,M2k, and leffen all agreed on stream about this). I wouldn't 100% agree with this, but there are characters with better neutrals and more threatening punish games than marth in PM. Think about it
{/Spoiler]

 

[victinivcreate1]

good thing that doesn't happen then, lol.

my point was that a character so often justified as being the best because he has 'technical difficulty' shouldn't also be too good within groups of **** tier players

But fox isn't good among scrub players. Any decent player should still be able to pick a scrub Fox apart (I mean every character in PM was practically designed to murder this character?). Because good players have mastery of fundamentals. Scrubs don't. Thats the difference.

Fox is fine. Leave 8 frame vertical KO move canine alone.

 

[DrinkingFood]

yeah, fox is stupid, and he WILL get addressed some more, stop derailing every topic

Also pretty sure upsmash is frame 6. We are both wrong it hits frame 7.

 

[Mr.Random]

I'd be fine with lower damage out put. Fox is already high risk high reward character.

 

[DrinkingFood]

SHDLs and a fast DD with safe shield pressure do not a high risk/high reward character make

 

[victinivcreate1]

SHDLs and a fast DD with safe shield pressure do not a high risk/high reward character make

But risk of being 0-deathed by any of the decent characters in PM (cough Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy, Marth, Sonic, Snake, etc) in contrast to his high offensive potential do make.

Anyway, top tier in PM whether people like it or not is probably these guys (no particular order).


The best one here? Arguable. Some say Fox. Some say Mewtwo. Some say Sonic. Some say Pit.

Worst? Lucario easily. But he's still top tier. Just untapped. Same with Diddy. Though we have a few pro Diddys who do good in tourney, he's still untapped IMO.

Character who really shouldn't be top tier but is? Mario. Too good for a beginner character. I mean not saying he should suck. But he was decent enough in Melee. Give a few buffs to KO power and he was fine. Not make him have a plethora of launchers so he can't get CC'd, have an extremely spammy, high damage projectile that gives FREE follow ups, nigh on ridiculous priority on Super Jump Punch that now has a wall jump, Cape and Dash Attack having WAYYYY too many active frames now, etc.

 

[mimgrim]

I always see this talk of 0-death stuff but I have yet to see it happen outside of very rare cases that could have probably been avoided with better DI. :/

 

[Mr.Random]

But risk of being 0-deathed by any of the decent characters in PM (cough Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy, Marth, Sonic, Snake, etc) in contrast to his high offensive potential do make.

Anyway, top tier in PM whether people like it or not is probably these guys (no particular order).


The best one here? Arguable. Some say Fox. Some say Mewtwo. Some say Sonic. Some say Pit.

Worst? Lucario easily. But he's still top tier. Just untapped. Same with Diddy. Though we have a few pro Diddys who do good in tourney, he's still untapped IMO.

This. He is high risk high reward. If you miss-space a move. Miss an L cancel. Miss a tech. Miss a recovery angle you are dead against a high or top level player. This is spacies in general. Need an example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qna80MbcAAc

 

[victinivcreate1]

I always see this talk of 0-death stuff but I have yet to see it happen outside of very rare cases that could have probably been avoided with better DI. :/

Mewtwo says
Uthrow regrab Uthrow FJ fair regrab Uthrow Uair uair uair offstage.
Or HC fair>HC fair>HC fair>HC fair fsmash

Marth says
Uthrow chain grab>uthrow utilt>uthrow fsmash tipper

MK says
Usmash Usmash Usmash Up B Glide Attack
Or spam tech chase grab

Falco says
Pillar komboz.

Need I say more? Also, each character has likely more than one guaranteed combo on space animals, but I only listed Mewtwo because Mewtwo is the character I'm most familiar with.

 

[trash?]

everyone sort of forgets how the reason so many people punish spacies is because a lot of design is, like I mentioned, designed entirely around going positive against space animals. this gets you into positions like ROB, who (IIRC, this might have changed since 2.6) has a grounded side-b that's pretty obviously designed vs. space animals because of its armor... except it also makes every other projectile meaningless in the process. it wasn't designed for care for that, though, because it was designed to fight spacies.(nvm I'm piss but I swear the rest of what I'm saying has meaning I think)

this applies to everything. E V E R Y T H I N G, in this game, matters to this. so many balancing choices and so many tier lists live and die off of "what's their matchup versus fox and falco", because nobody wants to actually fix fox and falco

 

[DrinkingFood]

everyone sort of forgets how the reason so many people punish spacies is because a lot of design is, like I mentioned, designed entirely around going positive against space animals. this gets you into positions like ROB, who (IIRC, this might have changed since 2.6) has a grounded side-b that's pretty obviously designed vs. space animals because of its armor... except it also makes every other projectile meaningless in the process. it wasn't designed for care for that, though, because it was designed to fight spacies.

this applies to everything. E V E R Y T H I N G, in this game, matters to this. so many balancing choices and so many tier lists live and die off of "what's their matchup versus fox and falco", because nobody wants to actually fix fox and falco

ROB's side-b doesn't have armor and never did lmao what are you smoking

 

[Mr.Random]

everyone sort of forgets how the reason so many people punish spacies is because a lot of design is, like I mentioned, designed entirely around going positive against space animals. this gets you into positions like ROB, who (IIRC, this might have changed since 2.6) has a grounded side-b that's pretty obviously designed vs. space animals because of its armor... except it also makes every other projectile meaningless in the process. it wasn't designed for care for that, though, because it was designed to fight spacies.

this applies to everything. E V E R Y T H I N G, in this game, matters to this. so many balancing choices and so many tier lists live and die off of "what's their matchup versus fox and falco", because nobody wants to actually fix fox and falco

I'm all for changing a couple dumb things. I'm just tired of low and mid level players complaining about them. The fact that Mango himself was talking about what nerfs he would give Fox shows that top level players (the smart ones) have actual stuff they'd fix.
Shine does 0%.
Recovery to kill moves.
Nerf Up smash growth by ten.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Every top player would have a different list. You still wouldn't please more than a couple of them.

 

[trash?]

ROB's side-b doesn't have armor and never did lmao what are you smoking

man I remember you mentioning something about it. I'm tired rn but if you really want to, let's just substitute that with mewtwo existing, because boy howdy does he punish spacies (and everyone else)

 

[Player -0]

I thought the second hit idea for Fox Up Smash was an interesting idea. Where there's a first hit then the kill move on the second so you could SDI it more.

 

[Bazkip]

Super Jump Punch that now has a wall jump

That was in Melee btw, though it's significantly easier to do in PM.

 

[Une]

I honestly like Mango's idea of just having shine do 0/1%, but give it back its invincibility. He says its just used to set up for stuff, not really to attack. Probably will never happen tho.

but the one frame of invinc. doesn't do anything so why bother

 

[Mr.Random]

but the one frame of invinc. doesn't do anything so why bother

Hello? Yes it does do something. One it helps him not clank with moves.

 

[Bleck]

I think this would be a more accurate statement because the shine isn't necessarily stupid by itself. Fox having the shine PLUS the rest of his kit is stupid. I think Fox will end up being more tolerable when his upsmash is nerfed.

I can agree with this, I suppose, though I don't necessarily think Fox' up smash needs nerfing.

^This is the smashboards tier list speculation thread in a nutshell.

Every time someone brings up a game design they find toxic or bad, someone just goes, "Oh yea, well fox and Falco have ______"

Like really, what is that supposed to accomplish?

Pointing out that people consistently bring it up doesn't do much to diminish the validity of the idea. Consider that many of the things that people take issue with in PM - recoveries as they exist in PM, for example - have been developed with how they're going to interact with characters like Fox and Falco (not to mention Marth and Sheik).

The question shouldn't be "why are recoveries too good?"; rather, it should be "what made recoveries have to be so good?" I'd argue that a lot of characters have options that they wouldn't need - or could have options that they currently cannot - were Fox and Falco's single-frame-cancelable-metagame-defining down special not a thing that need be considered.

 

[Deleted member]

Don't rush in. Just corner him.

 

[Hylian]

Hello? Yes it does do something. One it helps him not clank with moves.

Invincibility has nothing to do with clanking afaik.

It lets spacies beat grabs when done at the same frame as the grab.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Maybe people would stop bringing up Fox and Falco if there had ever been any official word of them being looked at and addressed. Instead, what we *do* have is confirmation that Melee top 8 will not be changed, according to Strong Bad, which is annoying because Falcon, Fox, Falco and Jiggs all need changes.

 

[Stompu]

I reckon Pikachu will end up a decent amount higher, as well as I think Lucario will be one of the best characters. He was pretty high up the list on Brawl and he's only getting stronger this game.

Sheik however definitely deserves that spot, holy hell. Watching her moves and how combo-able they are looks INSANE.

 

[Deleted member]

How good Lucario was in Brawl has no bearing on how good he is in PM. Lucario is a drastically different character compared to what he was before, and the game around him is drastically different as well.

and with talk about stupid no-skill design, zelda is the absolute worst for this. luckily she's too slow.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I'm all for changing a couple dumb things. I'm just tired of low and mid level players complaining about them. The fact that Mango himself was talking about what nerfs he would give Fox shows that top level players (the smart ones) have actual stuff they'd fix.
Shine does 0%.
Recovery to kill moves.
Nerf Up smash growth by ten.

That shine nerf isn't bad, I kinda rather it do DMG tho, since you do have to be rather close and the recovery into kill moves is indeed dumb.
Honestly, I think usmash is fine. Everyone will cry about usmash even if it gets that sorta of nerf. It would never be a enough because, I could play like m2k for a few random seconds through out the stock and you still die to my usmash. They will still cry about the move, why? Because all the other cool kids cry about fox, so why can't all the mid/low tier players do it to?

 

[1FD]

@ Thane of Blue Flames don't touch my PM Falcon (unless it's a little bit, you can touch him a little bit)
@ Stompu welcome to bread and butter Melee sheik stuff
@scrubbybutts Fox needs lazorz to win take those out and he'll be an epic cool character
@ mimgrim nobody could combo for ages, now peeps need to di

 

[Mr.Random]

Maybe people would stop bringing up Fox and Falco if there had ever been any official word of them being looked at and addressed. Instead, what we *do* have is confirmation that Melee top 8 will not be changed, according to Strong Bad, which is annoying because Falcon, Fox, Falco and Jiggs all need changes.

OMG especially Jiggs. She can't edgeguard most chars (recovery buffs), her neutral consists of one move, her specials suck (except rest, pound), her ground moveset sucks. She is also outclassed by a lot of characters who are less risky and get more reward..

 

[Desu_Maiden]

I hope I'm not the only person who believes that you should just play as whichever character you are best at, and ignore tiers altogether. There have been profession players who mastered bottom tier characters.

 

[Mr.Random]

Also if Ganon and Falcon get buffs, they should be small.
Ganon: Less frames on jump squat, less start up on grounded up b and increase it's grab range slightly. Lower hitboxes on grab and jab.
Falcon: Lower hitboxes on Nair, Grab, and Jabs. Less start up on grounded up b and increase it's grab range slightly. 64 up smash or 64 Fsmash.
This should give them a better OoS options and fix the problems they have with smaller characters.
That or give them something to deal with projectiles.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I reckon Pikachu will end up a decent amount higher, as well as I think Lucario will be one of the best characters. He was pretty high up the list on Brawl and he's only getting stronger this game.

Sheik however definitely deserves that spot, holy hell. Watching her moves and how combo-able they are looks INSANE.

Sheik ain't nowhere near as godlike in PM. Dthrow is essentially gone.

 

[Plum]

People sleep on Sheik because of her lack of representation.
If MD/VA had a Sheik player of note instead of 83945 Diddy players people would see that her basic playstyle is still incredibly effective despite a less lopsided punishment game on much of the cast (Xanadu being as popular as it is seems to drive people's opinions FAR too much). She might not get CG's anymore (okay real talk though, why the **** is Sheik's CG gone but then other characters are given equally stupid CG's and w/e on large chunks of the cast) but her ability to progressively invalidate your options in the neutral is still there. And all the buffed recoveries doesn't mean too much to Sheik with exceptions like Pit.

 

[victinivcreate1]

People sleep on Sheik because of her lack of representation.
If MD/VA had a Sheik player of note instead of 83945 Diddy players people would see that her basic playstyle is still incredibly effective despite a less lopsided punishment game on much of the cast. She might not get CG's anymore (okay real talk though, why the **** is Sheik's CG gone but then other characters are given equally stupid CG's and w/e on large chunks of the cast) but her ability to progressively invalidate your options in the neutral is still there. And all the buffed recoveries doesn't mean too much to Sheik with exceptions like Pit.

Yeah about Sheik not caring about buffed recoveries...


High and top tiers just beat Shiek's recovery lol. Sheik isn't bad, but she mid tier tbh. No reliable way to set up that forward air.

 

[Frost | Odds]

People sleep on Sheik because of her lack of representation.
If MD/VA had a Sheik player of note instead of 83945 Diddy players people would see that her basic playstyle is still incredibly effective despite a less lopsided punishment game on much of the cast (Xanadu being as popular as it is seems to drive people's opinions FAR too much). She might not get CG's anymore (okay real talk though, why the **** is Sheik's CG gone but then other characters are given equally stupid CG's and w/e on large chunks of the cast) but her ability to progressively invalidate your options in the neutral is still there. And all the buffed recoveries doesn't mean too much to Sheik with exceptions like Pit.

Hilariously, I'm pretty sure Sheik beats Diddy fairly hard?

 

[victinivcreate1]

Hilariously, I'm pretty sure Sheik beats Diddy fairly hard?

She does?

 

[Spralwers]

Hello? Yes it does do something. One it helps him not clank with moves.

What you're looking for here is intangibility.

 

[Plum]

Yeah about Sheik not caring about buffed recoveries...


High and top tiers just beat Shiek's recovery lol. Sheik isn't bad, but she mid tier tbh. No reliable way to set up that forward air.

Snake's recovery is pretty free. Characters like Sonic, Lucario, Mario, Squirtle, Diddy, Link etc. are all very gimpable for Sheik. Not from every position, sure, but Sheik does a good job of putting you in a ****ty position offstage to begin with. Sheik is definitely one of the better characters at beating tether recoveries. Her physics allow her to go extremely deep below the stage, and fairly deep horizontally from the stage from which she is capable of just putting out long lasting hitboxes and/or needles. She can often just have a hitbox waiting along the arc of the tether that will hit them the moment they try to grab the ledge. She also has great options to punish the forced hop from a tether should she be on the ledge. She can just jump up and hit you with a reverse Fair or w/e sending you deep offstage again.
Honestly, of these characters the only recoveries Sheik would really have trouble with is like... MK, Mewtwo, Pit, and to a lesser degree Lucas.

And did you really just say Sheik has no reliable way to set up Fair? um

 

[Frost | Odds]

She does?

Could be wrong, but that's my impression. She has free edgeguards on him, one of the very few projectile games that beats his, a nair that stuffs all his aerials, a great grab/combo game on him.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Fundamentals of game design aren't the same thing as fundamentals of playing a particular game. Words can, in fact, refer to different things in different contexts.

So by you're saying this, are you implying that shine ignores the basic fundamentals of the game? If we're talking about melee, then that would make more sense, as there aren't any moves besides shine that can be jced to that degree, at least that I can think of at the moment. So with that logic, wouldn't the moves introduced in project m with the ability to be jced, like the earthbound kids, ike and sonic, be considered to go against the fundamentals of the game?

 

[Bleck]

So by you're saying this, are you implying that shine ignores the basic fundamentals of the game?

Fundamentals of game design are not the same concept as 'fundamentals' in the context of playing a fighting game. I'm not implying it; it's a fact.

That being said;

So with that logic, wouldn't the moves introduced in project m with the ability to be jced, like the earthbound kids, ike and sonic, be considered to go against the fundamentals of the game?

It's not entirely that the shine can be jump-canceled that's the problem - it's that it's a move with a 1-frame hitbox that can also be jump-canceled. The shine wouldn't be a problem if it either a) could not be jump-canceled, or b) was not a 1-frame hitbox.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I could understand that mentality. So then what would be an acceptable frame for it to come out at in your opinion? Because honestly losing the jc aspect of shine would make the spacies lose a lot of appeal.