Tier List Speculation

[Desu_Maiden]

Who cares about tiers. Just play as whatever character you are good at.

 

[Deleted member]

Who cares about tiers. Just play as whatever character you are good at.

But... B... But who doesn't like arguing?

 

[ELI-mination]

Who cares about tiers?
...
Thread over I guess

 

[Mr.Random]

No one is in charge of certain characters in PMBR?

 

[menotyou135]

Honestly, I don't dislike sonic, but his gameplay is definitely over-centralized. I feel like the PMBR should take a note from blizzard's balance book. Decrease the viability of one strategy, while increasing the viability of others (see how they dealt with 6-pool from zerg and 4-gate from protoss). Buff viability of non B moves and alter B moves to be harder or less viable to perform (not necessarily worse). The best strategy should be the hardest or close to it. That is the fundamental elements of game design. Sonic's best strategy is one of his easiest. That's why he feels broken despite not actually being the best character.

 

[Bleck]

I don't think people are really concerned with fundamentals of game design as long as the shine is a thing

 

[DrinkingFood]

Honestly, I don't dislike sonic, but his gameplay is definitely over-centralized. I feel like the PMBR should take a note from blizzard's balance book. Decrease the viability of one strategy, while increasing the viability of others (see how they dealt with 6-pool from zerg and 4-gate from protoss). Buff viability of non B moves and alter B moves to be harder or less viable to perform (not necessarily worse). The best strategy should be the hardest or close to it. That is the fundamental elements of game design. Sonic's best strategy is one of his easiest. That's why he feels broken despite not actually being the best character.

Have you ever made a game?

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I don't think people are really concerned with fundamentals of game design as long as the shine is a thing

You still have to get in with proper spacing and good movement to land a shine, so yes, fundamentals are still a thing with the existence of shine. So I honestly don't know what you're trying to get at.

 

[Bleck]

Fundamentals of game design aren't the same thing as fundamentals of playing a particular game. Words can, in fact, refer to different things in different contexts.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

I don't think people are really concerned with fundamentals of game design as long as the shine is a thing

^This is the smashboards tier list speculation thread in a nutshell.

Every time someone brings up a game design they find toxic or bad, someone just goes, "Oh yea, well fox and Falco have ______"

Like really, what is that supposed to accomplish?

 

[Deleted member]

It accomplishes a lot of things
... like... Uhh...

Did you know fox has a shine?

 

[Circle_Breaker]

lol sonic all day ALL DAY

you're tooyou're tooyou're tooyou're tooCOME ON STEP IT UP

Although I'd be happy if they nerfed his spins a little bit and gave him a good fair spike (fthrow to fair should kill anyone at 70% because that sounds good), really his design is great - pissing people off is great, and you're too slow.

 

[trash?]

it is supposed to accomplish the acknowledge that development and balance decisions have always been incredibly biased in favor of space animals, and against anyone else considered strong

that is kind of a big deal, because they get special rights for being the subject of melee purists' complaints. why shouldn't you just deal with sonic? why shouldn't we balance all of our characters around him, instead?

 

[Circle_Breaker]

and with talk about stupid no-skill design, zelda is the absolute worst for this. luckily she's too slow.

 

[MatthewSwain9]

i think that hes fast as my ballsack xD

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

it is supposed to accomplish the acknowledge that development and balance decisions have always been incredibly biased in favor of space animals, and against anyone else considered strong

that is kind of a big deal, because they get special rights for being the subject of melee purists' complaints. why shouldn't you just deal with sonic? why shouldn't we balance all of our characters around him, instead?

Maybe when talking about spin-dash you should, I dunno, talk about spin-dash and not shine. Bringing up Fox and Falco in every situation is not accomplishing anything. You shouldn't ignore other characters flaws just because Fox and Falco have toxic elements.

 

[MatthewSwain9]

Maybe when talking about spin-dash you should, I dunno, talk about spin-dash and not shine. Bringing up Fox and Falco in every situation is not accomplishing anything. You shouldn't ignore other characters flaws just because Fox and Falco have toxic elements.

Fox and Falco just need nerfs for real. Just nerf their dmg and ko potential and its fine. They have a great kit and do so much damage and ko potention i mean those nairs, up titlts, and overall speed is just strong. Nerf the dmg and boom your done

 

[MatthewSwain9]

to be op you need to be fast, good recovery, good ko, good damage rack up, and good hitboxes/ kits. Meta knight and space animals fit that

 

[Narpas_sword]

to be op you need to be fast, good recovery, good ko, good damage rack up, and good hitboxes/ kits. Meta knight and space animals fit that

you missed the bit where OP also meant that theyre LEAGUES above anything else.

which those characters arent

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

to be op you need to be fast, good recovery, good ko, good damage rack up, and good hitboxes/ kits. Meta knight and space animals fit that

And get destroyed when you get touched and being gimped easily?? Mk isn't as amazing as spacies at that one.

 

[MatthewSwain9]

you missed the bit where OP also meant that theyre LEAGUES above anything else.

which those characters arent

well they are better than cough toon link cough gannon cough your mom cough everyone else. In my book thats op

 

[trash?]

fox, in particular, actually doesn't have much of a bad recovery at all. it's lengthy, has a decently big hitbox that makes edgeguards a bit less free, it can be used to make your opponent guess if you're going for the ledge or on-stage, and if you land on-stage you don't have to worry much about sheik-level of free punishing, because you react right out of it.

this is actually best shown in top melee play, because unless the opponent is an edgeguard-heavy peach or pikachu or the like, fox players don't actually have much trouble getting back at all. not exactly MK levels of amazing recovery, but he's no DK or falco, either

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Its stupid that they kept Fox's ridiculous knockback on usmash, tone that **** down at least. Like that other dude wrote, fox needs less ridiculous kill power, he can play identically and be fine. High skill ceilings are good but even noobs can wreck with fox.

 

[Rᴏb]

I don't think people are really concerned with fundamentals of game design as long as Fox is a character

I think this would be a more accurate statement because the shine isn't necessarily stupid by itself. Fox having the shine PLUS the rest of his kit is stupid. I think Fox will end up being more tolerable when his upsmash is nerfed.

 

[menotyou135]

Have you ever made a game?

I know you said this trying to be funny, so I'm sorry to inform you that the answer is actually yes.

I'm studying game art and design at The Art Institute of Tampa, so I kinda have to make games in order to, you know, pass. Granted most of the things I have made are simple games and/or board games, but the answer is still yes.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

And what kinda usmash nerfs do people want? Make it kill 10% later? Less KB so fox has to be fox for a few more lasers?

 

[jtm94]

Make it so shine KOs at 1% and then we'll be fine.

Melee tryna hold us down and give us 3 stocks so there's more time for Melee.
Fight the man!

Does the BH4 ruleset make any character better with the new stage and ban structure alongside 3 stocks? Or is every character still similarly well off the games just might be more inconsistent?

 

[Phan7om]

I honestly like Mango's idea of just having shine do 0/1%, but give it back its invincibility. He says its just used to set up for stuff, not really to attack. Probably will never happen tho.

 

[mimgrim]

All this talk about Usmash and it is barely that big of a problem.

Fox's problem is clearly his plethora of good defensive options on top of his plethora of good offensive options. With the biggest suspect being his Lasers. Give them more lag, make them slower, or just completely get rid of them. Seriously. A character with such a good neutral game, close range game, and so much speed should not have as good of a projectile as he does.

But I'm also a bit biased as a Bowser main since a runaway Fox is nearly, if not totally, impossible for him to deal with.

Falco is not as big of a deal because he is considerably slower then Fox, repetitively speaking, which means he can't do the runaway game nearly as good and he is easier to close in on. But I'm biased again here as a Bowser main since I can just crawl lol.

But really. The gist is. Fox shouldn't have so many defensive options as he does with everything else he has so tone down the defensive options.

 

[CyberZixx]

I think removing lasers could be an interesting way to go about it. Make it so when fox uses neutral b he looks at his gun and frowns. Either way upsmash is still redic.

 

[Frost | Odds]

But I'm also a bit biased as a Bowser main since a runaway Fox is nearly, if not totally, impossible for him to deal with.

I really don't think Fox is one of Bowser's most problematic matchups. Yes, fox is a problem, and yes, the MU is in his favor, but Bowser has tools and an insane punish game on Fox.

Just not on the big maps. :<

 

[mimgrim]

Fox is only not problematic if the Fox is stupid and rushes in instead of forcing Bowser to rush in.

 

[Soft Serve]

I honestly like Mango's idea of just having shine do 0/1%, but give it back its invincibility. He says its just used to set up for stuff, not really to attack. Probably will never happen tho.

I'd be down for this

 

[Mr.Random]

Wish people were a little more neutral about Fox instead of constantly bashing him. In Melee it is understandable but in PM where there is still so much potential for other characters, I feel it is to early to call. I do agree with Up smash having Brawl knockback (still powerful but not insane) and 0% shine since it is a set up move. Also Mango mentioned that jab up smash should be removed and his recovery hitting you into his kill moves is stupid. Up air is fine since it's not insanely hard to sdi it (watch Hbox).

 

[victinivcreate1]

Its stupid that they kept Fox's ridiculous knockback on usmash, tone that **** down at least. Like that other dude wrote, fox needs less ridiculous kill power, he can play identically and be fine. High skill ceilings are good but even noobs can wreck with fox.

If scrubs are 2-3-4 stocking you as fox, and you claim these players to be noobs, then you're just bad. Not even a scrub or a noob or sucky. Just bad.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Fox is only not problematic if the Fox is stupid and rushes in instead of forcing Bowser to rush in.

Don't rush in. Just corner him.

 

[mimgrim]

Don't rush in. Just corner him.

that's way way way easier said then done.

 

[trash?]

the motto for any bowser matchup--don't matter which one--is "the second they learn you need to approach them, it's a losing matchup". the only time this isn't as true is when projectile options are slow enough for bowser to powershield every single one, like mario's

remember, fox doesn't care that bowser has armor knockback, because lasers don't do knockback anyways. spam lasers, go for grabs, switch sides, repeat

 

[DrinkingFood]

Just pick up Samus, she beats fox.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

If scrubs are 2-3-4 stocking you as fox, and you claim these players to be noobs, then you're just bad. Not even a scrub or a noob or sucky. Just bad.

good thing that doesn't happen then, lol.

my point was that a character so often justified as being the best because he has 'technical difficulty' shouldn't also be too good within groups of **** tier players