Tier List Speculation

[Rᴏb]

Mewtwo counters literally every one of those characters, including Diddy - who isn't that good to begin with.

Maybe top 10.

****, I completely forgot about Mewtwo. My point still stands. I can't say I agree that Diddy "isn't that good".

 

[Frost | Odds]

****, I completely forgot about Mewtwo. My point still stands. I can't say I agree that Diddy "isn't that good".

Top 10, but certainly not top 5. Arguing that he's better than fox/falco/ivy/m2/lucas is pretty asinine - but I might even buy 6th tied with Link or smth.

i think theres a difference between theorycraft and claiming you have to be debilitated (which you apparently define as "not an autistic savant"...) to mess up a 0-death on any character from anywhere with lucas though.

Dude's not a savant, he just works hard. Almost as hard as a Diddy player needs to work to accomplish anything against a competent player.

anyways good luck with your hand i'm sure we'll see you repping lucas in the finals of every tournament ever once you've recovered.

Thanks, I'll get right on switching mains to something that'll further aggravate the RSI.

 

[Deleted member]

Fine, let's have at it.

You think Diddy is completely broken and needs a nerf, which would show...a lot more Diddy placements.

Quote me. I said neither of those things.

I said the recovery isn't safe, not isn't good.

Every recovery is unsafe, that's the nature of being in a positional disadvantage.

See above comments, I'm not sure if Diddy is better than Snake or not, but I think you're massively simplifying them.

I'm really not. Snake is a good punishment game attached to an incredibly mediocre neutral game. Diddy has no such problem.

5th fastest faller in the game is pseudo? Diddy gets combo'd hard.

Fast-fallers:
1) Wolf [3.2]
2) Falco [3.1]
3) C. Falcon [2.9]
4) Fox [2.8]

Semi-fast-fallers:
5) Diddy [2.55]
6) MK [2.45]
7-8) DK/Roy [2.4]
9) Lucas [2.3]
10) DDD [2.25]

Diddy still isn't a legitimate fastfaller and subsequently escapes the general CG range established for corrective balancing for fox and falco early into the game's lifespan. So yeah, my prior advice of DI away is still correct. Good job, prior me.

I said he has no kill moves if you nerf Fair. This is just manipulative.

Well glad to know that Diddy isn't blatantly top tier in a version of the game that doesn't exist.

You know, I don't even care that Diddy is a really good character. But man, call it like it is. I'm so tired of people complaining about Fox and Pit and Mario and Diddy, these characters that are so obviously the top crust of the game, for some trivial crap or some other thing. You know who never complains a single god damn word? The Roy, Bowser, Yoshi, and Luigi players. They finally get to play their favorites and not have lost the set at the character select screen, and you're complaining about Diddy? Get real.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Wait, @Umbreon. Do you think Didds should be nerfed or what?

 

[Deleted member]

Wait, @Umbreon. Do you think Didds should be nerfed or what?

Yes, but only minor things that would have no change to how the character plays out and would have no real impact to his relative goodness. I suppose "refined" would be a better word for it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Zelda's standing grab still grabs on Frame 9-11.

Wtf I could have sworn it was standardized
For some reason I distinctly remember reading that. Was that ever the case? Maybe back in 1.0?

Also why
I'm sure you would make a lot of Zelda mains happier with the upcoming changes if you guys fixed this really weird, inconsistent, unnecessary oddity
Bowser's and DK's grabs are apparently slow also, maybe some other big fatties too, but on Zelda it makes no sense

 

[Player -0]

I love this thread. I learn random things about characters, people, and see lots of salt.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Yes, but only minor things that would have no change to how the character plays out and would have no real impact to his relative goodness. I suppose "refined" would be a better word for it.

This seems pretty reasonable. I don't think anybody objects to removing the stupid rogue barrel, or maybe a slight KB reduction on fair (and increase on dsmash to compensate maybe?)

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Zelda is broken 'cause my main be Sonic.

nerf her fair, bair, nayru's, grab hitbox, fsmash, teleport, and taunts pls

 

[Player -0]

How is Zelda a bad MU for Sonic?

 

[Circle_Breaker]

How is Zelda a bad MU for Sonic?

she pisses me off so much i make 2x my usual input errors

**** her taunts so much

 

[AstraEDM]

You should see Mewtwo's crap He can use all his normal aerials while floating and holding a banana, and a lot of his moves grant frame advantage on shield. That means he can teleport > float > aerial > L cancel > dthrow glidetoss under your shield to make you trip if you shield the aerial.

i'd just like to thank praxis for giving me nasty mewtwo ideas

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

she pisses me off so much i make 2x my usual input errors

**** her taunts so much

Just taunt cancel you're too slow until the Zelda player wants to murder you, then they'll be too busy messing up for you to care.

 

[AstraEDM]

map taunt to the jump button you don't use for maximum taunt cancel efficiency
every time you leave a platform your opponent should know exactly how slow they are

 

[trash?]

the best part about the changes this game has is how taunt cancelling actually serves an honest-to-god purpose now, because with good timing you can taunt cancel samus' beam change, or by mashing downtaunt near a ledge with kirby he'll instantly lose the copy ability you accidentally picked up because there's like two justifiable copy abilities and they're both spacie lasers

 

[Mera Mera]

For another example, lucas's tether grab hitbox is active long enough to hit shorter spotdodges. Is it OP? Possibly, it breaks the rock paper scissors game of shield/grab/spotdodge, and it leads to early deaths. Is it stupid? I would say so.

To be fair, you can actually roll and still have time to punish his tether. It still sucks cause you have to commit harder to counter a suspected tether, but it's something.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

So with PM mains selectable I can now proudly display my actual Brawl main for all the world to see.

Yes I'm a filthy filthy hypocrite.

 

[Bleck]

man that doesn't have nothing to do with tiers stay on topic nyerghg

 

[Rizner]

Wtf I could have sworn it was standardized
For some reason I distinctly remember reading that. Was that ever the case? Maybe back in 1.0?

Also why
I'm sure you would make a lot of Zelda mains happier with the upcoming changes if you guys fixed this really weird, inconsistent, unnecessary oddity
Bowser's and DK's grabs are apparently slow also, maybe some other big fatties too, but on Zelda it makes no sense

As a counter point, she does have a large range with the grab. Would I like it faster? Sure. Do I understand the trade-off decision? Yep. With her I think the length might be better than speed, but that's just me.

Although the grab behind you hitbox is something that should get fixed because it doesn't make sense. Anyone know if marth (similar, slightly larger grab range) also grabs behind him? If so, maybe the devs allow it to easily extend grab ranges and don't really notice the behind thing?

 

[Ripple]

it does on dash grab

 

[Zx2963]

Zelda is broken 'cause my main be Sonic.

nerf her fair, bair, nayru's, grab hitbox, fsmash, teleport, and taunts pls

The Sonic vs Zelda MU can't be that bad right?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

So with PM mains selectable I can now proudly display my actual Brawl main for all the world to see.

Yes I'm a filthy filthy hypocrite.

I use the icons to show all the characters I play in PM
I'm some kind of freak, I know.
Sonic>zelda

 

[Phan7om]

there's like two justifiable copy abilities and they're both spacie lasers

lol Fox's lasers are so bad bro, Falco's and Wolf's are better but some others still outshine them like Ivy, Mario, Pit, GnW, ZSS etc. Taunt cancelling is best on Kirby for its versatility factor, you get something like Falco's lasers or w/e shdl them and then taunt cancel jump inhale or something lol.

 

[TreK]

the best part about the changes this game has is how taunt cancelling actually serves an honest-to-god purpose now, because with good timing you can taunt cancel samus' beam change, or by mashing downtaunt near a ledge with kirby he'll instantly lose the copy ability you accidentally picked up because there's like two justifiable copy abilities and they're both spacie lasers

Ivysaur copy ability tho
Because apparently he needed four free solar beams per match to win the matchup where he can CG you from 20 to 70 and get a free fsmash when he grabs you above 100%, as well as escape 90% of Ivysaur's combos thanks to his weight and falling speed.

 

[Phan7om]

And its easier to combo into than Ivy can. Thats why its the best one

 

[Rizner]

it does on dash grab

Makes me think something off with large ranges when the animations lean a little forward.

And the sonic matchup isn't bad for sonic, but a decent matchup doesn't mean you like it. I think Zelda puff is in Zelda's favor, but that matchup no good.

 

[didds]

You know who never complains a single god damn word? The Roy, Bowser, Yoshi, and Luigi players. They finally get to play their favorites and not have lost the set at the character select screen, and you're complaining about Diddy? Get real.

Actually I play Yoshi, and I wouldn't mind um, if maybe, if the PMBR just kind of, idk, sort of just fix the parry frames of his shield so I stop taking delayed damage for jumping oos after blocking attacks. That would be neat. Actually nevermind, sorry for bugging you guys..

Oh and dair is too stronk, nerf to keep reasonable moveset for game balance sake. I like a good clean fight.

 

[Praxis]

I'm very curious to see how Diddy will be in the next update. I think he's easily a top 10 character, probably around number 5 being under Fox, Falco, MK, Wolf in that order... He has so many strengths and aspects to him that are straight up better than the majority of the cast, so seeing @ Praxis downplay him sooo much just gives me the feeling that you just don't want your character nerfed dude (which is totally understandable). If I were to predict how hard he is getting nerfed, I'd expect:
- The angle in which fair sends you to be less devastating.
- A worse recovery (not just the barrel getting removed/reworked).
- MAYBE take away a banana peel.

Don't assume I'm downplaying him just to prevent a nerf, this is a community speculation thread, I don't expect the PMBR to read this.

Also, I'm actually saying I think Diddy's in the top ten (which makes him very good), or I wouldn't play him- I just think people are massively overhyping him in crying for nerfs, because he's not IMO top five or OP or broken in the slightest.

As to your suggested nerfs...he definitely needs the barrel misfire removed, and I wouldn't be surprised if they give him some extra landing lag frames or a slight fair nerf, but a major fair nerf would knock him clean out of the top ten because he doesn't have much kill options. I'd prefer to see nooby moves like dash attack nerfed because those moves aren't great at high levels anyway and are half the reason people complain about Diddy, than see a staple like fair nerfed, but whatever decision is made is made.

But taking away the second banana peel would make Diddy trash tier. It would completely upend his logic and make him a very campy character as well, because it would be extremely high risk to let his opponent take the banana peel, so Diddies would just pull one naner and camp, rather than using one naner to approach and the second naner to combat the opponent taking the first one.

Making bananas disappear faster is preferable to taking away the second naner. Taking the second naner away would have very negative effects on Diddy's meta and make him more annoying and less technical, if anyone bothered to keep playing him.

Zelda's grab has a normal speed in PM. It's not slow.

Lol, I play against Zelda a lot. Her grab range is huge, but it's abnormally slow.

Zelda vs Diddy is another matchup that is stupid for Diddy, bu few people do it right. She can pick up bananas out of teledash, and worse, she can do up-B to AGT by airdodging up out of the up-B as she crosses the banana and C-sticking to cancel the airdodge with AGT. Nobody ever thinks to do this except one of my crewmates though, but it means that Zelda has instant control of any naner left on the field.

 

[Praxis]

Fine, let's have at it.

You think Diddy is completely broken and needs a nerf

Quote me. I said neither of those things.

Okay.

Your quote:

sorry praxis but diddy is blatantly hardcore OP. there's diddy salt because the character is godlike even by PM buffed brawl character standards.

Every recovery is unsafe, that's the nature of being in a positional disadvantage.

Right, but I'm saying it's actually fairly unsafe if positioned to deal with it. It's basically Fox's up-B if you could charge it to go further, but it had a much much much smaller hitbox that was actually behind him.

It's got enormous range, but you can position yourself to cover each possibility and still get a guaranteed hit.

Mewtwo's recovery is less range but much, much safer in comparison.

The side effect if a long-but-unsafe recovery is that Diddy can go very deep and then recover since he's coming back first, which is cool. When people learn to recover, his recovery is still pretty good but completely coverable.

I'm really not. Snake is a good punishment game attached to an incredibly mediocre neutral game. Diddy has no such problem.

I'd say Snake has a great punishment game, really.

Both characters have excellent recoveries, Diddy has a much better neutral game, Snake has a better punish game. Since Diddy's punish game is still pretty good, you could argue that Diddy's better than Snake over that, but Snake seems to outplace Diddy at nationals and I think you're oversimplifying him as a character.

Fast-fallers:

1) Wolf [3.2]
2) Falco [3.1]
3) C. Falcon [2.9]
4) Fox [2.8]

Semi-fast-fallers:
5) Diddy [2.55]
6) MK [2.45]
7-8) DK/Roy [2.4]
9) Lucas [2.3]
10) DDD [2.25]

Diddy still isn't a legitimate fastfaller and subsequently escapes the general CG range established for corrective balancing for fox and falco early into the game's lifespan. So yeah, my prior advice of DI away is still correct. Good job, prior me.

I never said he gets the chain grabs, I said he gets punished very hard because he's a fast faller. I don't see how showing me that Diddy is the 5th fastest faller in the game, as I stated, proves me incorrect.

Well glad to know that Diddy isn't blatantly top tier in a version of the game that doesn't exist.

Now you're just ignoring the context in which that discussion happened. I wasn't even directing that at you. I was replying to the guy who asked what other kill moves Diddy had besides fair.

You know, I don't even care that Diddy is a really good character. But man, call it like it is. I'm so tired of people complaining about Fox and Pit and Mario and Diddy, these characters that are so obviously the top crust of the game, for some trivial crap or some other thing. You know who never complains a single god damn word? The Roy, Bowser, Yoshi, and Luigi players. They finally get to play their favorites and not have lost the set at the character select screen, and you're complaining about Diddy? Get real.

Okay with the appeal to emotion here...I'm not sure I understand the point. I'm frustrated at people (even commentators) who act like my wins are fraudulent because my character is OP, when I think he's just a pretty normal top-ten PM character, and whiners calling out for nerfs.

I'm arguing for the exact reason you are- because I'm sick of complainers- and I'm trying to instead educate people on how to beat Diddy Kong instead of arguing for a nerf.

 

[mimgrim]

Bowser is so big that all he needs to do is crouch on top of nanners lol.

 

[Deleted member]

So can we all agree that toonlink needs buffs?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Ivysaur copy ability tho
Because apparently he needed four free solar beams per match to win the matchup where he can CG you from 20 to 70 and get a free fsmash when he grabs you above 100%, as well as escape 90% of Ivysaur's combos thanks to his weight and falling speed.

MU still favors Ivy at least 60:40. If Kirby touches you, you've messed up pretty bad. It's like fighting a strictly better Marth.

So can we all agree that toonlink needs buffs?

YES LET HIS FSMASH CARRY HIM OFF LEDGES PLS
http://smashboards.com/threads/suggestion-let-tls-fsmash-carry-him-off-ledges.347141/

 

[JOE!]

Guys... what if CHarizard's Flamethrower had IASA or such so you could combo out of it?

FT -> Grab 2 spoopy

 

[Frost | Odds]

Guys... what if CHarizard's Flamethrower had IASA or such so you could combo out of it?

FT -> Grab 2 spoopy

Only if Bowser's did the same.

 

[JOE!]

Bowser already has the bite hitbox :T

 

[Frost | Odds]

he also has about 6000 frames of endlag

 

[Zx2963]

So can we all agree that toonlink needs buffs?

He's not bad though, how would you buff him in a way he isn't too powerful?

 

[Deleted member]

Okay with the appeal to emotion here...I'm not sure I understand the point. I'm frustrated at people (even commentators) who act like my wins are fraudulent because my character is OP, when I think he's just a pretty normal top-ten PM character, and whiners calling out for nerfs.

The point is that every character is ideally balanced to feel ~21st out of 41, so when a character is so unanimously top 10... your character is relatively too good. And I never said diddy was broken or needed nerfs, but he's definitely too good. broken =/= too good. A "normal" character should not be so obviously top ten. Similarly, we should not be comparing Diddy's recovery to Mewtwo's, as M2's is obviously not okay as-is. We should compare it to average recoveries, and Diddy's recovery is well above average.

 

[jtm94]

Diddy is good, I play him when I want to win against a character I don't want to get close to.

Diddy beats Zelda, if you lose because she turns a banana against you then you need to develop your game to either be less reliant on bananas, or better adept at dealing with his counter-banana game. I know teledash is really good on the ground and is underused by a lot of Zelda's in the MU, but the aerial one is an incredible commitment to pull off unless the banana was super predictable. If she misses the banana she has to float to the ground, Diddy should fair her and she will die. I play both characters and if I want to beat another Zelda I use Diddy.
Also Zelda vs Sonic isn't fun for either player, but Sheik vs Sonic is fun for the Sheik player, and that's all that matters.

I agree with Umbreon's stance of comparing a characters tools to that of an average characters. Many characters have recoveries that can borderline punish their opponent for trying to edgeguard. There should indeed be some mix-up potential, but the ability to freely get back several of ways is very good. I have fully embraced the hope that PMBR will hinder several characters recoveries to at least slightly above average instead of way better than average, that is all I can ask.

Yoshi's parry has been a goal to finish for some time for the PMBR. It is contingent to his Melee playstyle, however, he does have WAYYYYYYY more tools now than before and jump oos almost makes the technique irrelevant if no one knew it existed prior. Yoshi is a tank and eggroll is a pain to deal with, good thing no one plays him. V3ctorman said he would, where you at?

 

[Frost | Odds]

M2's is obviously not okay as-is.

Still a ton of people arguing he's perfectly fine. Idk how anyone thinks that, but the bias runs pretty strong sometimes.