Tier List Speculation

[mimgrim]

Bowser already has the bite hitbox :T

The bite hitbox sux. I would gladly change it out for IASA frames lol. But I could def seeing it working for Charizard, especially since it would make him even more combo orientated.

I would much rather see Fire Breath turned into Fire Ball though lol. Bowser is suppose to be more of an anti-approach character, which is fine, but it really becomes bad when you can't force an approach against a character with a projectile. That's something he could really use, a projectile to deal with other projectiles and force approaches.

 

[thatoneguy1]

Still a ton of people arguing he's perfectly fine. Idk how anyone thinks that, but the bias runs pretty strong sometimes.

are we talking about his extreme vertical recovery? if so thats easy as hell to read and if you have a character with a good spike he's as good as gone.

 

[MLGF]

Mewtwo's just a little too safe on some silly options. If he needs nerfs then they'd be pretty minor.

 

[JOE!]

The bite hitbox sux. I would gladly change it out for IASA frames lol. But I could def seeing it working for Charizard, especially since it would make him even more combo orientated.

I would much rather see Fire Breath turned into Fire Ball though lol. Bowser is suppose to be more of an anti-approach character, which is fine, but it really becomes bad when you can't force an approach against a character with a projectile. That's something he could really use, a projectile to deal with other projectiles and force approaches.

Yeah, bowser rarely breathes fire anyways, he always has the fireballs in nearly every single appearance of his.

 

[ELI-mination]

Still a ton of people arguing he's perfectly fine. Idk how anyone thinks that, but the bias runs pretty strong sometimes.

I'd argue that if fox is fine then it follows that mewtwo is fine (and so is every character in the game).

Therefore my stance is that neither of them are fine.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd argue that if fox is fine then it follows that mewtwo is fine (and so is every character in the game).

Therefore my stance is that neither of them are fine.

seriously if fox is fine the game is already final lol

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'd argue that if fox is fine then it follows that mewtwo is fine (and so is every character in the game).

Therefore my stance is that neither of them are fine.

Neither is fine, no.

 

[Mr.Random]

Still think character like Pit, Link, Mewtwo, Lucas, and Meta Knight are easily top ten characters. Their strengths far outweigh their weak points. This is mostly coming from experience, results, and what I've seen in top 8 videos.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I think a few key things could be done to those guys.
Mk tho, hold down and use projectiles.

 

[mimgrim]

MK is small, fast, and has a move that gives him a high burst of speed downwards.

He has nothing to fear of projectiles when he can just avoid them. CCing also isn't a problem if the MK knows what they are doing.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Holding down is a good way to get grabbed I think



Also can somebody explain why ROB has a DACUS but no boost grab despite the two techs having overlapping windows. Like, he gets to transfer his dash attack momentum into an upsmash, but can't transfer it into a grab like a lot of characters can, like Ike/Sheik etc who have notable ones, even if he cancels it on the same frame that he can first do his DACUS. I'm pretty sure the cancel exists, but serves no purpose because he doesn't get additional momentum. I'm pretty sure I wasn't doing it wrong. Why?

 

[Mera Mera]

Holding down is a good way to get grabbed I think



Also can somebody explain why ROB has a DACUS but no boost grab despite the two techs having overlapping windows. Like, he gets to transfer his dash attack momentum into an upsmash, but can't transfer it into a grab like a lot of characters can, like Ike/Sheik etc who have notable ones, even if he cancels it on the same frame that he can first do his DACUS. I'm pretty sure the cancel exists, but serves no purpose because he doesn't get additional momentum. I'm pretty sure I wasn't doing it wrong. Why?

This is just a guess, but maybe it has something to do with z being shield + attack? I know that the window for dacus is 1 frame smaller if you use up grab instead of up attack for the up smash. For some it means that it's not possible to dacus with a grab button. Is that true for ROB?

 

[trash?]

Holding down is a good way to get grabbed I think

and getting grabbed means getting tech chased, which means being hit with enough to make CC useless

I have been preaching meta knight since 2.6 and y'all still ain't enlightened

 

[Mera Mera]

and getting grabbed means getting tech chased, which means being hit with enough to make CC useless

I have been preaching meta knight since 2.6 and y'all still ain't enlightened

Yeah, imo Metaknight is top 7 at least.

Unrelated, but I really think Falco is super underrated as of late. @Umbreon why do you think he's worse in this game? Are there characters that counter his neutral game?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Just make Mewtwo's Teleport burn his DJ so he can't jump or float after teleport. There is such a thing as too many options.

 

[DrinkingFood]

This is just a guess, but maybe it has something to do with z being shield + attack? I know that the window for dacus is 1 frame smaller if you use up grab instead of up attack for the up smash. For some it means that it's not possible to dacus with a grab button. Is that true for ROB?

The DACUS window is one frame smaller using grab because it enables you to cancel into a grab that frame. Which ROB can do. ROB can also cancel into an upsmash that frame using attack to get a full length DACUS. My question is why can he cancel into a DACUS that frame and cover a lot of space but can't get that same momentum for canceling into a grab on that frame even though there are so many characters that can?

 

[Frost | Odds]

if Roy/GnW's dacus was possible to consistently do for a human, might make them jump a few slots

 

[Deleted member]

GnWs dacus IS possible to do consistently for a human. @Dakpo gets it all the time.

 

[Frost | Odds]

A HUMAN. Dakpo/Sethlon clearly don't count

 

[TreK]

MU still favors Ivy at least 60:40. If Kirby touches you, you've messed up pretty bad. It's like fighting a strictly better Marth.

loooool
For a minute I forgot you were lurking in the shadows, searching for a perfect opportunity to complain about Ivysaur.

#InstantVineWhip

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

A HUMAN. Dakpo/Sethlon clearly don't count

I can consistently do GnW's Dacus, so clearly it isn't that difficult to accomplish.

 

[Bryonato]

yeah gotta agree it's really not super hard, esp. if you practice it

 

[Mr.Random]

I think a few key things could be done to those guys.
Mk tho, hold down and use projectiles.

MK had this weakness somewhat in Brawl but it doesn't affect good players. He is small, has excellent rolls and spot dodges, and good grab range.
Sorry double post

 

[Mr.Random]

I'd argue that if fox is fine then it follows that mewtwo is fine (and so is every character in the game).

Therefore my stance is that neither of them are fine.

Pretty sure almost every character at top level play can 0 to death Fox in this game, edgeguard him easily. You have to remember that balance should be counted for top level play only. The major reason Fox wins in PM despite the major nerfs is because the player is better, Pit wins because Armada is better, Wizzrobe wins with Sonic because he is better, M2K wins with Mewtwo because he is better, the list goes on.

 

[Ace55]

The major reason Fox wins in PM despite the major nerfs

Hold on, major nerfs?

Dude this Fox is still better than PAL Fox, who is absolutely amazing.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ Mr.Random
This is somehow doubtable, being a fastfaller lets you escape in a knockdown techchase pretty often and you need many reads to 0-to-death a Fox.

 

[PlateProp]

@ Mr.Random
This is somehow doubtable, being a fastfaller lets you escape in a knockdown techchase pretty often and you need many reads to 0-to-death a Fox.

Dem Ken combos tho

 

[Mr.Random]

Hold on, major nerfs?

Dude this Fox is still better than PAL Fox, who is absolutely amazing.

Major nerfs: Every character has death combos and major buffs to edgeguarding, lasers do less damage, shine trades with a lot more things, up b travels slightly less distance (unintentional).
Now don't get me wrong, Fox is good but he is perfectly balanced so far. He is character that is high risk high reward. You play perfect and don't make mistakes (impossible because humans ) you'll be rewarded. If you watch CEO grand finals you'll see what I mean. People need to maximize their punish games like top level players do. If they can do it so can we. If you lose it is because you are not as good and need to improve. No johns. (Note this is not aimed at you but at biased players who aren't as good as high/top level players)

 

[ELI-mination]

Pretty sure almost every character at top level play can 0 to death Fox in this game, edgeguard him easily. You have to remember that balance should be counted for top level play only. The major reason Fox wins in PM despite the major nerfs is because the player is better, Pit wins because Armada is better, Wizzrobe wins with Sonic because he is better, M2K wins with Mewtwo because he is better, the list goes on.

Ok here's some truth. I am a top level player. Fox did not get "major nerfs". In fact he's easier to play in pm.

Also I thought we have already addressed the ridiculous dumbness of 0-deathing spacies, why are you bringing it up again as an argument?

I like how mewtwo has been as good as he has for a long time now and M2k has been beating people with him, but when someone else does it like emukiller (who beat him in dittos (what excuse do you have now?) he's suddenly too overpowered. It's not that event that makes the character too good. If you wanna look at bias, look at the people who seem to believe literally everything top players say and assume that unless the same people keep winning something is wrong.

I know for an absolute fact (since I play backroom builds still, and I will always have access believe me) that several characters are getting nerfed and who they are. If I still cared a lot about smash I would be seriously concerned about the fact that apparently getting good with characters while simultaneously being relatively unknown leads to your character getting nerfed out of ignorance. Since you chucked wizzrobe in your example I'll use him. I'm fairly certain after his performance with 2.5 Sonic at apex he was the main inspiration for the Sonic nerfs. Whether or not he deserved nerfs is a different question (he probably did but that's not my point), but you better believe had it been Armada or M2k using Sonic he might not have gotten nerfed at all. Not until Emukillers clone "Roadrunner" picked up Sonic and beat him in a ditto.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Everyone knows which characters are getting nerfed, you just have to pay attention to who the melee community is saltiest about.

Hint: IT'S STILL NOT ****ING FOX

 

[Deleted member]

i would love to see a mid tier fox in this game. like 21st out of 41 mid tier

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Not happening.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

On the longrun, I am a bit concerned about balancing difficulties. One argument was made that if character X was easy to play and as good as Fox, in a real game situation he will always be better than him.
Well, some characters have other layers of difficulty besides APM and timing precision, but still not every character is as hard to play as another one.
With the metagame evolving, the harder characters will benefit while the easier won't that much and it gets imbalanced again.

As example, take Jiggs as an easy character (sorry for the prejudice I know that character needs especially spacing, patience, pattern recognition, reaction and awareness but I have to make an example) and Fox as hard character. Right now, Fox is the better character. Lets say we nerf Fox and buff Jiggs to a point they are as good as each other at the current state of metagame. Fox will benefit more from the metagame evolving and suddenly Jiggs needs buffs / Fox nerfs again. If we do it the other way, nerf Fox and buff Jiggs to an amount that they will be as good as each other in 20XX, Jiggs would be op now and Fox really bad.

No matter how good the PMBR balances the game if they don't find a way to make the difficulties even / cause the metagame of different characters to evolve at the same speed, that balance will destabilize soon.

Fox still needs a few little tweaks, but thats not the core of the problem.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

W/e lets go back to suggesting JC Sing for Jigglypuff or whatever

 

[ELI-mination]

Prepare for the nerfocalypse.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Eli, can confirm lots of nerfs or not a lot of nerfs?
Lots of nerfs would make me happy, maybe ROB will finally be a relatively good character

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Nope, ROB will always recieve buff/nerfs to keep it perfectly in the middle of the cast. It is the 1%

 

[ELI-mination]

Not gonna leak any more info lol. But lots.

 

[mimgrim]

Eh. I care more about buffs to the lower end characters then I do about nerfs to the higher end characters.

 

[Life]

Not gonna leak any more info lol. But lots.

good thing I've been practicing my pocket Zard