ELI-mination
Smash Champion
All your pockets are empty
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
AstraEDM
Smash Ace
You're making mewtwo mains really really scared eli
*goes back to practicing ganon*
*goes back to practicing ganon*
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
I think that may be healthy in the long run. There's always been an issue with how mid tier characters possess tons of great qualities yet still fall short because they don't have something ridiculous. And ultimately, the parts getting the most complaints are the ridiculous elements. Mind you I still think the BR should be extremely careful about it (and ffs take Fox down with the rest of the top if you do nerf them).
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Preeeeeetty sure Ganon's not be nerfed.
... Right?
... G-guys?
... Right?
... G-guys?
AstraEDM
Smash Ace
Ganon is the only one safe from the nerf gun
his time will come
his time will come
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Oh boy, an Ivysaur player claiming Ivysaur is balanced. Next up, Fox players saying Fox has been nerfed too much, and Mewtwo players saying that utilting requires too much skill.
Life
Smash Hero
Sometimes it's hard to tell what's the result of a weakness/strength in your play and what's the result of a weakness/strength in your character.
AstraEDM
Smash Ace
I would honestly take an uptilt or upair nerf rather than lose hover/dj out of tele
IMO, nerfs/changes should change how effective an option is, rather than straight up removing options from characters. Bit of an extreme example, but it would be like adding a bunch of landing lag to fox's nair because fox needed nerfs, completely changing how his shield pressure and approach games work, instead of toning down up smash and up air to more reasonable levels, or removing hitstun on falco lasers, changing his combo and camp game completely (not that it'll happen, because melee)
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Indeed.
A fair perspective, but I'd actually argue that m2 is the extraordinarily rare case of a character with too many options. How do you meaningfully interact with a character for whom the concept of 'stage control' is meaningless, and whose teleport approaches that can lead into 0->death combos are utterly unpunishable except by hard reads?
There is literally no way, for example, for anyone to punish teleport -> hovernair -> nair/fair on reaction, but this option puts on a ton of shield pressure, leads into insane combos, and requires no real effort to do. This is only one of Mewtwo's many approach options, but he doesn't even need to approach!
I think it's kinda silly. I'd prefer if some options were taken away so Mewtwo players (and their opponents) actually had to make some meaningful choices, but whatever - as long as the character is actually balanced, it's not a huge deal.
Last edited:
1FD
Smash Ace
DotA2 has been powered creeped to nerfneeding levels too
been looking forward to both these games getting nerfwaves
Ganon is a beast because chokeslam
been looking forward to both these games getting nerfwaves
Ganon is a beast because chokeslam
the trick is to always pick the character with good potential, but not enough good potential for it to be immediately obvious for nerfs
shoutouts to metaknight
shoutouts to metaknight
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
I know the ganon buffs that are happening will be awesome, but I'm sure he'll be nerfed in the following build unless kage is the using him
Mr.Random
Smash Ace
There is a mid tier Fox. Play Brawl.
Life
Smash Hero
One of the big things about Mewtwo is that, AFAIK, his teleport is fixed range. As soon as you hear the woop you know there are a limited number of places he can show up, and which ones are meaningful in that you can't intellectually react to them so you have to rely on instinctual reflex to get out of the way (or attack into that space), if that makes sense. So if he's going to TP and his range is such that he'll land directly in front of you, you can DD back on reflex and then react if he shows up elsewhere because he's not on top of you.
It's still a bit too fast, though, but I think a couple extra end lag frames are all Mewtwo needs to be in line with the rest of the cast (or at least the rest of high tier).
It's still a bit too fast, though, but I think a couple extra end lag frames are all Mewtwo needs to be in line with the rest of the cast (or at least the rest of high tier).
Last edited:
~Frozen~
Smash Apprentice
Admittedly I just stalk this thread a lot just to hear what other people are saying about the current state of PM, but since someone asked, I suppose I could give my thoughts on Mewtwo.
I'll start with the obvious: Mewtwo is....very, very good. Arguably the best character in the game. (I would not put him in a tier of his own though, that's just nuts)
Teleport is a very safe approach, but most of its safety stems from the ability to Hover out it, in my opinion. This allows him to suffer very short landing lag on an aerial he just woop'd into. Without it, a simple shield would easily allow an opponent to punish him. Getting the read on a Teleport hover approach, however, does reward you with stealing Mewtwo's DJ, leaving him with just a teleport to recover. Chances are you probably won't be ready to DI in that situation either, so there's a good shot of being sent at a pretty nasty angle offstage. Other than that, gimping Mewtwo is probably a lost cause unless your edgeguarding tools are superb.
I feel Mewtwo's goodness as a character comes from the combination of many very good attributes rather than just one or two incredibly powerful moves that lead to centralization in a character's moveset. Combine that with the fact that he lacks any extreme weaknesses (ex: super low weight, large lack of mobility), and you have yourself with a very powerful character. Kinda reminds me of Fox, in a way.
It's also worth noting that NY/NJ is the only region with prevelant Mewtwo players, so matchup knowledge outside of this area (and even sometimes IN our region) isnt commonplace. I'd like to see what the game becomes when we as players become better equipped to deal with the MU, as its certainly doable. My wins on some of the better players in my region are definitely not free, I'll say that now. And if they were, we'd see a lot more Mewtwo players lol.
If we're expected to learn the Fox MU instead of complaining about the character, I'd expect everyone to treat Mewtwo the same way. While I feel he'll still have a lot of + mu's, I don't feel like many characters will feel helpless against him, besides very flawed chars like Ganondorf.
I'll start with the obvious: Mewtwo is....very, very good. Arguably the best character in the game. (I would not put him in a tier of his own though, that's just nuts)
Teleport is a very safe approach, but most of its safety stems from the ability to Hover out it, in my opinion. This allows him to suffer very short landing lag on an aerial he just woop'd into. Without it, a simple shield would easily allow an opponent to punish him. Getting the read on a Teleport hover approach, however, does reward you with stealing Mewtwo's DJ, leaving him with just a teleport to recover. Chances are you probably won't be ready to DI in that situation either, so there's a good shot of being sent at a pretty nasty angle offstage. Other than that, gimping Mewtwo is probably a lost cause unless your edgeguarding tools are superb.
I feel Mewtwo's goodness as a character comes from the combination of many very good attributes rather than just one or two incredibly powerful moves that lead to centralization in a character's moveset. Combine that with the fact that he lacks any extreme weaknesses (ex: super low weight, large lack of mobility), and you have yourself with a very powerful character. Kinda reminds me of Fox, in a way.
It's also worth noting that NY/NJ is the only region with prevelant Mewtwo players, so matchup knowledge outside of this area (and even sometimes IN our region) isnt commonplace. I'd like to see what the game becomes when we as players become better equipped to deal with the MU, as its certainly doable. My wins on some of the better players in my region are definitely not free, I'll say that now. And if they were, we'd see a lot more Mewtwo players lol.
If we're expected to learn the Fox MU instead of complaining about the character, I'd expect everyone to treat Mewtwo the same way. While I feel he'll still have a lot of + mu's, I don't feel like many characters will feel helpless against him, besides very flawed chars like Ganondorf.
Mr.Random
Smash Ace
Not trying to be an ass but I haven't seen any top 8 results from you or many vids lately. Are you inactive or something/can't travel often?
I'm saying we should be basing our opinions on what happens in Top 8s. Which is usually where you see top level play and not be focusing on low/mid level players complaints. Also Emukiller has always been amazing since his netplay debut.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Mr.Random
Smash Ace
Agreed lol
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Yea I've been inactive but I'm a top player, the fact that you even questioned that tells me all I need to know
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
ALL ABOARD THE BUFF TRAIN, I'LL BE YOUR CONDUCTOR, FIRST STOP GANONTOWN NEXT STOP ROBVILLE CHOO CHOO
steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
"hi yes this is your conductor today we are not arriving at olimartown i repeat the buff train is not arriving at olimartown today"
Mr.Random
Smash Ace
No I've definitely seen you play. Just not lately.
Last edited:
D
Deleted member
Guest
... Whens Toonlink Village?
Hinichii.ez.™
insincere personality
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2013
- Messages
- 4,290
- NNID
- hinichii
- 3DS FC
- 2423-5382-7542
TL is fine, dumb dumb.
lunchables, have you seen what that lunchables guy can do with tink?
Mr.Random
Smash Ace
I agree. Tink has no options for anything. Whenever I pick him my cursor automatically snaps to Fox, it's like the game knows.... Whens Toonlink Village?
D
Deleted member
Guest
same for me, when i play giga bowser it goes to MK for some reason
eli money match your enemies
eli money match your enemies
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Warning Received
There's nothing I love more than being antagonistic, let's go
#gahlike
#gahlike
Mr.Random
Smash Ace
Bring out the Ness. Please. Haven't seen too many good ones.
but then he would be playing a character that isn't bad
the eli curse
the eli curse
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Defs gonna second Frozen's post. I think the most overtly safe thing about Mewtwo is hover out of Teleport. Yes, people point out Teleport's fixed jump range, but consider that Mewtwo's safe range for Teleporting is made significantly larger thanks to hover out of Teleport. You not only can get back onto the stage but immediately attack out of it, of which Mewtwo has amazing aerial options to do so. I think if there's anything about Mewtwo that would be addressed, it's going to be one specific element of the Teleport whether it's keeping free action and removing hover out of it or maybe another solution.
It's that or nerfing his aerials to compensate but I think TP -> Hover overreliance would be bad character design.
It's that or nerfing his aerials to compensate but I think TP -> Hover overreliance would be bad character design.
jtm94
Smash Lord
MK is clearly Giga Bowser needs nerfed.
Also I can do GnW DACUS with a 50/50 success rate. It's honestly easier for me to waveshine than DACUS.
Also I can do GnW DACUS with a 50/50 success rate. It's honestly easier for me to waveshine than DACUS.
AstraEDM
Smash Ace
if you don't use a shoulder button mapping l or r to attack can make the dacus easier
Circle_Breaker
Smash Journeyman
people who know more than me should post some full spec. tier lists
jtm94
Smash Lord
I do have R set to A. It helps immensely.
bËst^
Smash Journeyman
A little bit out of current discussion, but I have too much sparetime and I'm willing to throw out my own pekulation about possible tierlist. It is anything but correct, but it reflects my personal experiences I've learned from PM so far. There is plenty of characters in a roster those posses huge potential in right hands and my advantage when knowledge towards the game expands, but at the moment my personal feeling about tierlsit is somewhat like this: (I try to keep it in groups of four)
S: Fox, Pit, M2,
A: Falco, Zelda, Mario, MK
B: Snake, Sonic, Lucas, Ivysaur
C: Link, Lucario, Charizard, Diddy, Wolf
D: DK, Marth, Kirby, Ike,
E: DeDeDe, Rob, Pikachu, Roy
F: ZSS, Samus, Peach, Sheik, GW
G: Wario, Falcon, Yoshi, Ganondorf
H: Jiggs, Bowser, Ness, Squirtle
Absolute bottom: Ice Climbers, Olimar, Luigi, Toon Link
Quick comments:
S: Most playable characters; Fox is almost the same as he is in melee and his upword kill potential is as good as it was in melee / brawl. Pit is the gimp master and pretty much outclasses even falco when we talk about projectilegame. Great recovery, Out of stage control and neutral game control are both great. M2 got by far the best juggling abilities and his buffed range in attacks helps a lot. Being able to move and hit fast with teleport adds great pressure into his gamestyle. Also he got great combobreaker attack in neutral-aerial. These three are IMO three clearly best chars and none of A-tier characters were able to fill the fourth slot. The gap ain't huge, but it is big enough to separete two tiers.
A. Falco is IMO the most "melee-like" transformation in PM and therefore easy to handle. Pretty much nothing changed in his metagame. Zelda, Mario and MK are all very "all around" fighters. All them are hard to combo and they got lots of good options almost in every situation. Zelda is very hard to approach (thanks to Dins fire and far reaching multihit attacks like usmash, Utilt, jab and F-smash) and posses variety of different set up attacks and she got one of the best recoveries in the game.
B: Snake and Sonic posses very unfamiliar gameplay. That makes them very strong and adapting into their style ain't that easy. Snake's weakness is his slow aerial movement and somewhat straightforward. But his punishgame is amazing. Setting C4 usually means you are half dead because sheik can pretty easile combo you close to ceiling. Also his throws combo into early spike skills with front aerial. Lucas is the oddball, cos his movement is so improvment from his Brawl counterpart. Ivysaurs battles with range and his spacing is so safe most of the time. Being above ivysaur easily leads into a lot of damage and upB if great finisher.
C: Every character in this tier got great buffs in their gameplay. Diddy being the master of neutral game with bananas, Wolf got this spaceanimal-like combogame and charizard is suprisingly fast with great amount of powerful killers and combomoves. Link is overally very good (but I got very little experience about him) and Lucarios metagame is again one very unique. The closest thing smash has ever had with street fighter and other fighting games :D. These characters got the potential, and my move up an down in the tierlist
D: Dk is the character I got most experience and I'm very aware about his potential and weaknessis. I clame, that this character might reach the very top in right hands. Along with snake, his punishment-game is something to be afraid of. Great recovery, long reach, great recovery... his only disadvantage is his sige and lack of projectile so controlling the neutralgame is hard. Marth's match up have turned worse IMO when comparing melee/brawl to PM. Comboing into tipper is harder and there is characters those outrange him more easily and also the amount projectiles to hurt his movement. He is still solid character with good overall combo game. Kirby seems ok, but I don't know him well enough. Ike's quick draw overcomes his weakness in slow movement and gives him great tool to link his moves. His amazing KO power is not a joke. He suffers from being very easy to combo and his horizontal recovery is too easy to break.
E: Dedede is much like DK, but act worse almost on every situation. His movement, punisgame, edgeguarding, recovery... DK does that all better. His size acts as his disadvantage and he got no moves to cause combobreaks. Still, lots of attackpower and back aerial as edgeguard option are threats to be aware of. Rob got the movement, poking and good edgeguard. Placing him into this tier was very hard cos as I play him as my secondary amd therefore I feel like he could be a lot higher. But on the other hand, he is huge target (much like DeDeDe) and his recovery is good, but gimbable. Roy, at the moment in the shadows of marth but overally I think roy is better in the long run. Pikachu is okey, but match ups don't work for his favor in PM. It is very hard to gimp and combo with him when compared to Melee.
F: ZSS is much like sheik with good reach: Agile, fast moves and good combo game. She's biggest weakness is lack of potential killing moves and his edgeguard options are pretty much limited. I got not too much experience about Samus but I don't see her as potential higher tier character. I might be badly wrong though. Peach is more agile which is great but like with Marth: There is too much hard match ups for her. Sheik finds it hard to land his familiar combo game and feels like she got the biggest nerf when comparing melee and PM. GW... metagame chances have buffed him for sure, but he still lacks something I can't name specificly.
G: Wario... I just don't like the changes. Potential killing moves are hard to land, recovery is somewhat pathetic and his dash grab ain't good once your opponents get's to use it. His aerial movement is amazing though. Falcon could be higher, but I've found it hard for him to fit into these chances in mechanics. Yoshi is good, but once again, very little experience. Ganondorf's front B is great move, but he is still slow old man with bad recovery.
H: Jiggs fits into category "Great, but new physics of the game work againt her". Getting rest is much harder and got there is lot of hard hitters and characters with great range, it ain't easy to approach with jiggs. Bowser: Huge power and super armor are his way to adapt, but behind that he is still way too slow and big. On the other hand, Squirtle is fast but way too light and still in a very bad weightclass. Comboing him ain't that hard and he dies way too easily. Ness... I got no comments. Might be higher, might be lower.
Bottom: IC's got nerfed badly. The whole grabgame has suffered a lot of damage. This new "more humanlike" nana acts stupidly and usually gets herself in danger. Also the changes in physics is bad for this couple. Olimar feels like he is the brawl character in melee-like metagame. he just doesn't fit. Toon link... bad recovery, somewhat laggy projectile metagame and bad weightclass. Luigi... he should be okey, but so far I've got nothing out of him.
Well.... it wasn't so short post after all :D. But like I said, I got plenty of spare time to fit more precise analysis about my thoughts. This is anything but the real deal and bases totally my experiencis so far. Looking forward to first official tierlisting!
S: Fox, Pit, M2,
A: Falco, Zelda, Mario, MK
B: Snake, Sonic, Lucas, Ivysaur
C: Link, Lucario, Charizard, Diddy, Wolf
D: DK, Marth, Kirby, Ike,
E: DeDeDe, Rob, Pikachu, Roy
F: ZSS, Samus, Peach, Sheik, GW
G: Wario, Falcon, Yoshi, Ganondorf
H: Jiggs, Bowser, Ness, Squirtle
Absolute bottom: Ice Climbers, Olimar, Luigi, Toon Link
Quick comments:
S: Most playable characters; Fox is almost the same as he is in melee and his upword kill potential is as good as it was in melee / brawl. Pit is the gimp master and pretty much outclasses even falco when we talk about projectilegame. Great recovery, Out of stage control and neutral game control are both great. M2 got by far the best juggling abilities and his buffed range in attacks helps a lot. Being able to move and hit fast with teleport adds great pressure into his gamestyle. Also he got great combobreaker attack in neutral-aerial. These three are IMO three clearly best chars and none of A-tier characters were able to fill the fourth slot. The gap ain't huge, but it is big enough to separete two tiers.
A. Falco is IMO the most "melee-like" transformation in PM and therefore easy to handle. Pretty much nothing changed in his metagame. Zelda, Mario and MK are all very "all around" fighters. All them are hard to combo and they got lots of good options almost in every situation. Zelda is very hard to approach (thanks to Dins fire and far reaching multihit attacks like usmash, Utilt, jab and F-smash) and posses variety of different set up attacks and she got one of the best recoveries in the game.
B: Snake and Sonic posses very unfamiliar gameplay. That makes them very strong and adapting into their style ain't that easy. Snake's weakness is his slow aerial movement and somewhat straightforward. But his punishgame is amazing. Setting C4 usually means you are half dead because sheik can pretty easile combo you close to ceiling. Also his throws combo into early spike skills with front aerial. Lucas is the oddball, cos his movement is so improvment from his Brawl counterpart. Ivysaurs battles with range and his spacing is so safe most of the time. Being above ivysaur easily leads into a lot of damage and upB if great finisher.
C: Every character in this tier got great buffs in their gameplay. Diddy being the master of neutral game with bananas, Wolf got this spaceanimal-like combogame and charizard is suprisingly fast with great amount of powerful killers and combomoves. Link is overally very good (but I got very little experience about him) and Lucarios metagame is again one very unique. The closest thing smash has ever had with street fighter and other fighting games :D. These characters got the potential, and my move up an down in the tierlist
D: Dk is the character I got most experience and I'm very aware about his potential and weaknessis. I clame, that this character might reach the very top in right hands. Along with snake, his punishment-game is something to be afraid of. Great recovery, long reach, great recovery... his only disadvantage is his sige and lack of projectile so controlling the neutralgame is hard. Marth's match up have turned worse IMO when comparing melee/brawl to PM. Comboing into tipper is harder and there is characters those outrange him more easily and also the amount projectiles to hurt his movement. He is still solid character with good overall combo game. Kirby seems ok, but I don't know him well enough. Ike's quick draw overcomes his weakness in slow movement and gives him great tool to link his moves. His amazing KO power is not a joke. He suffers from being very easy to combo and his horizontal recovery is too easy to break.
E: Dedede is much like DK, but act worse almost on every situation. His movement, punisgame, edgeguarding, recovery... DK does that all better. His size acts as his disadvantage and he got no moves to cause combobreaks. Still, lots of attackpower and back aerial as edgeguard option are threats to be aware of. Rob got the movement, poking and good edgeguard. Placing him into this tier was very hard cos as I play him as my secondary amd therefore I feel like he could be a lot higher. But on the other hand, he is huge target (much like DeDeDe) and his recovery is good, but gimbable. Roy, at the moment in the shadows of marth but overally I think roy is better in the long run. Pikachu is okey, but match ups don't work for his favor in PM. It is very hard to gimp and combo with him when compared to Melee.
F: ZSS is much like sheik with good reach: Agile, fast moves and good combo game. She's biggest weakness is lack of potential killing moves and his edgeguard options are pretty much limited. I got not too much experience about Samus but I don't see her as potential higher tier character. I might be badly wrong though. Peach is more agile which is great but like with Marth: There is too much hard match ups for her. Sheik finds it hard to land his familiar combo game and feels like she got the biggest nerf when comparing melee and PM. GW... metagame chances have buffed him for sure, but he still lacks something I can't name specificly.
G: Wario... I just don't like the changes. Potential killing moves are hard to land, recovery is somewhat pathetic and his dash grab ain't good once your opponents get's to use it. His aerial movement is amazing though. Falcon could be higher, but I've found it hard for him to fit into these chances in mechanics. Yoshi is good, but once again, very little experience. Ganondorf's front B is great move, but he is still slow old man with bad recovery.
H: Jiggs fits into category "Great, but new physics of the game work againt her". Getting rest is much harder and got there is lot of hard hitters and characters with great range, it ain't easy to approach with jiggs. Bowser: Huge power and super armor are his way to adapt, but behind that he is still way too slow and big. On the other hand, Squirtle is fast but way too light and still in a very bad weightclass. Comboing him ain't that hard and he dies way too easily. Ness... I got no comments. Might be higher, might be lower.
Bottom: IC's got nerfed badly. The whole grabgame has suffered a lot of damage. This new "more humanlike" nana acts stupidly and usually gets herself in danger. Also the changes in physics is bad for this couple. Olimar feels like he is the brawl character in melee-like metagame. he just doesn't fit. Toon link... bad recovery, somewhat laggy projectile metagame and bad weightclass. Luigi... he should be okey, but so far I've got nothing out of him.
Well.... it wasn't so short post after all :D. But like I said, I got plenty of spare time to fit more precise analysis about my thoughts. This is anything but the real deal and bases totally my experiencis so far. Looking forward to first official tierlisting!
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
This is part of it.
M2 and Ivy are very UN-like Fox in a couple other ways, though:
1. They're extremely safe. You can punish a Fox when he messes up, and many characters can 0-death him. The total lack of variance in M2 and Ivy's play means that if the players are remotely consistent, they can just grind you down over a long game or set with the superior range and safety of their moves.
2. Kinda feeding into (1), there's very little relative tech skill required for these guys, even further reducing their variance - especially in high pressure tournament situations. This is basically the only reason Jigglypuff is playable in Melee: she's kind of bad against all the other top tiers (excluding Sheik), but her low tech skill floor/ceiling means that Jiggs mains can focus on their headgames and not get fatigued as quickly, even while playing MUs that heavily favor the other guy (ie. Jiggs vs Fox). When you attach this ability to someone who's got GOOD matchups against the other top tiers (mostly M2 - Ivy kinda loses to Fox/Falco/MK), then we've got a hell of a problem.
These things also combine to make these characters extremely disheartening to play against. I don't mind getting repeatedly 4-stocked by a Fox that's better than me (as much as he SHOULD get nerfs, it feels like there's hope to win in the punish game); but it's absolutely rage-inducing to get 2 stocked over a grueling 7 minute game by an Ivysaur or a Mewtwo who's a garbage player in most respects, but has learned the basics of one of these characters to an extent that beating them with a lot of the cast is simply unfeasible - and doing it with the rest is frustrating at best.
This description may also apply in lesser amounts to guys like Mario and Pit, though I don't know as much about those characters.
Last edited: