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Tier List Speculation

KayB

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I see a lot of people putting Wolf in top tier, which I can somewhat agree with as long as you consider Captain Falcon top tier in melee. While the actual movesets are pretty much nothing alike, they have very similar "go all in" playstyles that can result in an SD more often than not at least once a set. Despite this they are incredibly powerful characters capable of stringing together magical **** resulting in Energem combos or knees respectively.

Personally I would consider Wolf as a high but not top tier character, with maybe the existence of lasers and a better recovery possibly pushing him up, although I haven't seen much laser play yet.
While I agree that Captain Falcon's and Wolf's playstyle is similar to an extent, it's wrong to assume they deserve the same positions and match ups simply based on that. They have almost no moves in common and many of their moves have different properties of each other. While the end result is the same, they approach and combo in very different ways, requiring certain DI's and different moves to watch out for. For example, depending on the character, Falcon uses aerials to combo into knee whereas Wolf can simply use his 1-frame shine to combo into energems. But side-b is also high risk high reward making it a different type of move than Falcon's knee.

In other words, it's a bit ridiculous to assume that simply because they have similar objectives of offense that they are equals and belong in the same tier. They have different moves that have different properties and thus are very different in terms of their offensive game. It would be like comparing Marth and Roy; both focus on poking shields and capitalizing on grab combos so they can zero to death opponents, but ultimately their moves are vastly different and require different methods of spacing edgeguarding, and etc. There are probably better examples, but hopefully you get the gist of what I'm trying to say.

Also, SD's shouldn't be taken into account of a character's placing since SD's are based on human error, and unless there's something fundamentally wrong with the character's design where SDing is necessary or inevitable, they should not be considered. Plus, neither Wolf or Falcon SD often.

Isn't the whole point of the Project to make every character as good as Fox was in Melee, because it's better to buff than nerf? Or did I read the sign wrong?
You misread the sign as Brawl -.

What are peoples' current thoughts on charizard?
I think he's underrated in the sense that he's not a very popular character to use. I believe that there will inevitably be a time where there's a huge influx of amazing Charizard mains (or one of the current Charizard mains starts traveling more) and simply because Charizard is generally a solid character with some very good match ups plus the added on fact that players like you, Zen, Metroid, and John Numbers will be further expanding the metagame, people will complain about how crazy and overpowered Charizard is after a number of these players place very well with Charizard as either a main or a secondary at majors. Then people will realize how to adapt against him and start punishing his glide game, his somewhat reliance on his nair, and other things I'm probably not aware of and then he'll drop down a tier or two until one of you guys discovers something new or finds ways to nullify the adaptations against Zard and starts going ham on everyone.

Essentially how I project Charizard's lifespan in the near future assuming the new version of PM doesn't come with balance changes/doesn't come anytime soon.

I say this because I believe Charizard is a good character that nobody really has solid experience against, so I think a lot of players will start abusing a lot of the good tools that Charizard has. Players will have to adapt, and Charizard's metagame will have to be forcefully upgraded. A bit like natural selection.
 
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Kink-Link5

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What are peoples' current thoughts on charizard?
A subpar character with an astonishingly good Nair, awkward hurtboxes, good combos, bad throws, gimmicks that throw people off at first, and several unsafe attacks.

Also he breaths fire and stuff.

I put him among the lesser characters of the cast.

RE: "Wolf is basically Falcon"

Falcon doesn't have a mobile shine out of shield. The fact that Wolf retains his mobility while shining mid air is a huge boon that sets him apart from his fellow spacies and above a very large chunk of the cast.
 
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Jellyfish4102

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Charizard is subpar to me because there are other characters that can do what he does and do it better. The same goes for Toon Link next to Link.

I could see Wolf being above Fox but it's tough to say because they have different strengths. I think they're about even so it would come down to who has more positive match ups.
 

Zx2963

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Charizard is subpar to me because there are other characters that can do what he does and do it better. The same goes for Toon Link next to Link.

I could see Wolf being above Fox but it's tough to say because they have different strengths. I think they're about even so it would come down to who has more positive match ups.
Wolf is not above Fox, when it comes to getting that kill, Fox's instant Usmash wins out
What characters at the moment have yet to be unlocked potential? I feel like Lucario, Pikachu, and
Luigi
 

KayB

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bad throws
To add on to this, forward throw is very good for throwing characters far off stage at high percents and back throw is very good at comboing heavy and sometimes even light characters at low percents. Forward/back throws is a DI mix-up.

I mean he doesn't have amazing throws, but they certainly aren't bad by any means.
 

Jellyfish4102

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Wolf is not above Fox, when it comes to getting that kill, Fox's instant Usmash wins out
What characters at the moment have yet to be unlocked potential? I feel like Lucario, Pikachu, and
Luigi
Wolf does have a kill move combo directly out of shine which is really good. Plus his forward smash catches people off guard because of its distance. Fox may have an easier time getting kills but Wolf doesn't struggle to kill.

I definitely agree on those three. Pika so under repped.
 

Zx2963

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Wolf does have a kill move combo directly out of shine which is really good. Plus his forward smash catches people off guard because of its distance. Fox may have an easier time getting kills but Wolf doesn't struggle to kill.

I definitely agree on those three. Pika so under repped.
True, but Wolf's over-aggressiveness usually nets him a SD (look at any Wolf players). Fox, however, can play safe and be extremely deadly. I definitley think Wolf and be on par with Fox someday, but at the moment, Fox > Wolf.

Pikachu isn't THAT under repped, look at Anther and Axe. Luigi though has some pretty insane combo game on semi-floaties and fast fallers. You can literally combo into a shoryuken that kills at 70%, and his dair meteor smashes unlike Mario's.
 

DMG

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If Wolf's Nair, Dair, and Laser functioned closer to what the other Spacies had, you'd see him way up there more. You can generally deal with, and figure out ways to apply their specific moves to compensate for the differences between each Spacie, without coming across huge gaps or deficits. Solid Bairs, solid Dsmashes, etc

Those 3 moves are generally inferior though to the Fox/Falco counterparts, and that probably holds him back a bit. Does make for a more interesting character though
 
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The only thing I don't like about Wolf is his laser, but that has more to do with me being petty. The laser traveling so slow just looks and feels really weak and lame to me and I would much prefer something closer to Brawl Wolf's laser speed. Other than that though, I think he is a great character and much more interesting and balanced than Fox or Falco.
 

DMG

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The speed is whatever, but the clanking part is not what you want from a Laser. That's super no bueno
 

Zx2963

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Any consistent wolf player (Rat, Scythe, Silent Wolf, Chillin) don't SD aside from a few times so I have no idea where you're pulling this from.
Rat and Chilllin SD quite a bit, and have lost matches against other big players because of a miscalculated side special.
Wolf's nair though sucks big time
 

DMG

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CC into tech roll > double shine

But rly tho Fox is Fox is God
 

KayB

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Rat and Chilllin SD quite a bit, and have lost matches against other big players because of a miscalculated side special.
Wolf's nair though sucks big time
Not really? If you look at most of their videos, they don't die from side-b aside from the occasional match. It's definitely not frequent enough where it should be taken into consideration for Wolf's tier placement.
 

Giygacoal

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Lucario does have sleeping potential, but I doubt the current version is top 5 material because there's plenty of characters to poke at his flaws (and these aren't even the spacie glass cannon type of flaws)... which is completely fine. For me, the question is does he have mostly advantageous matchups or mostly even/slight disadvantageous matchups?
 
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Fortress

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Lucario does have sleeping potential, but I doubt the current version is top 5 material because there's plenty of characters to poke at his flaws (and these aren't even the spacie glass cannon type of flaws)... which is completely fine. For me, the question is does he have mostly advantageous matchups or mostly even/slight disadvantageous matchups?
Mostly even/slightly disadvantageous is what I'd go with. Lacks significant range on plenty of his moves, and, you know, swords are a thing in the game. Crouch Cancelling also beats his options out fairly easily at lower percents, similar to Sheik and Meta Knight. He's got really solid recovery, really good combo potential, excellent movement, and all of that good stuff, but I think that a lot of the cast have the tools to deal with him. He's definitely great on large characters...
 

steelguttey

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wait, this thread has gotten to the point where we can force discussion about our mains? yessss

OLIMAR

go
 

Giygacoal

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ZSS has mad SDs tho
I SDed with Zero a lot. Then I realized I could B-Reverse her up-B.

Mostly even/slightly disadvantageous is what I'd go with. Lacks significant range on plenty of his moves, and, you know, swords are a thing in the game. Crouch Cancelling also beats his options out fairly easily at lower percents, similar to Sheik and Meta Knight. He's got really solid recovery, really good combo potential, excellent movement, and all of that good stuff, but I think that a lot of the cast have the tools to deal with him. He's definitely great on large characters...
Yeah, that's a shame. Mario has a range issue as well, but it seems he's much less niche because his projectile is a lot better. The cape and nair help too.
 

| Kailex |

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Ganondorf's best move is his down-taunt, just showing you that he doesnt need a sissy sword to beat the **** out of you
 

Fortress

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Ganondorf's best move is his down-taunt, just showing you that he doesnt need a sissy sword to beat the **** out of you
But he needs a hover, a sword moveset on down-taunt, a magic movset on side-taunt, and to have absolutely no physical attacks in the game, because that makes me upset.
 

Giygacoal

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I've laughed too much from the Excuse Me Princesses. Soon after getting into Brawl modding I've wanted to make a Link that always says a variation of the phrase. Hey, now it's actually easy and feasible!
 

Kati

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All Ganon needs is for recoveries to be toned down so that he can edge guard again. His power means nothing if people can fly over him or sweet spot every time.
 
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Fortress

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You disgust me
C'mon, let's face it, this Link is too much man to handle. He scoffs at the coyness of TP Link.

All Ganon needs is for recoveries to be toned down so that he can edge guard again. His power means nothing people can fly over him or sweet spot every time.
Wat. I've never played or seen a Ganondorf who has this problem.
 
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