Tier List Speculation

[WIZRD.Pro]

FOX AND FALCO NOT TOP TIER?!
BLASPHEMY, all you need is M2K and PP showing you how wrong that is.
Though I agree Falco is not top tier anymore. Mewtwo, Link, Lucas are top tier for sure. Pikachu is more mid tierish though, QAC is nothing more then a fancy gimmick. I've beaten proficient pika mains with Pika and I don't QAC.

Well, the problem I see is that two high tier characters counter spacies quite well, MK and Pit to be exact. Then there's also Marth and Mewtwo

 

[victinivcreate1]

So because you have beaten these #proficient pika mains in dittos that means that QaC is a gimmick? Gee I guess you learn something new every day.

A move that buffs recovery, extends combos, gives more approaches, can grab the ledge from the stage, and covers a large distance in a short amount of time (which can also be acted out of) can't possibly be a gimmick. And either you are really good or those #proficient pikachu mains suck. (Pikachu can still be played well without QaC)

QaC is more than a gimmick, just watch Anther

I don't even watch Anther's Pika (ESAM fo' life). Just playing this dude showed me how powerful QAC is. I think Pika might be high tier, but he just suffers from a range problem which keeps him out of top.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

I don't even watch Anther's Pika (ESAM fo' life). Just playing this dude showed me how powerful QAC is. I think Pika might be high tier, but he just suffers from a range problem which keeps him out of top.

Thunderbolt and some nicely times QACs can help mitigate it, but you do have a point. Problem is that I based my tier list around how players are currently using the characters. Link would otherwise be upper-high or even top tier if players used him to his true potential. That's why I put Link so low. Then there's Lucas who, well I accidentally put him in the wrong tier. Is fix'd nao.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Thunderbolt and some nicely times QACs can help mitigate it, but you do have a point. Problem is that I based my tier list around how players are currently using the characters. Link would otherwise be upper-high or even top tier if players used him to his true potential. That's why I put Link so low. Then there's Lucas who, well I accidentally put him in the wrong tier. Is fix'd nao.

If you're basing your list off results then why is Mewtwo not top and why is Diddy Kong, Falco and Ivysaur so high? They should be lower.

 

[Zx2963]

QaC is in brawl not melee -__-

I know that, I'm talking Axe from melee who plays P:M. Also if you didn't know, their is Perfect Agility in Melee.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

If you're basing your list off results then why is Mewtwo not top and why is Diddy Kong, Falco and Ivysaur so high? They should be lower.

Well, that's because for one, Ivysaur still places quite high and has been shown to be quite a good character, Falco because he has already shown a lot of might in Melee and also because I literally have only seen like 5 Falco vids, and Diddy has placed high very often on the channels I watch while also performing extrodinary (VGB, CT, and TL) Mewtwo is because... well actually I can't get a very good read on him. He seems both great and a bit lacking at the same time.

Also, when I said I based it on performance, I didn't mean only tourney rankings. Remember, PM players often have secondaries and that means these players could have swapped characters to avoid a bad matchup.

 

[Zx2963]

Well, that's because for one, Ivysaur still places quite high and has been shown to be quite a good character, Falco because he has already shown a lot of might in Melee and also because I literally have only seen like 5 Falco vids, and Diddy has placed high very often on the channels I watch while also performing extrodinary (VGB, CT, and TL) Mewtwo is because... well actually I can't get a very good read on him. He seems both great and a bit lacking at the same time.

Also, when I said I based it on performance, I didn't mean only tourney rankings. Remember, PM players often have secondaries and that means these players could have swapped characters to avoid a bad matchup.

If you watch a lot of these channels, you'd know why Mewtwo is on top. He's the perfect character literally. I really can't see shortcomings in him.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

So Sonic needs to be nerfed because of how Wizzy did at this latest tournament but the character that Zero busted out to trash Sonic after four straight losses to Wizzrobe is a-okay

Yeah, eff this thread as well, it's pretty trash and pointless. I know the PMBR is more sensible than most of the posters here and that's good enough for me.

 

[MLGF]

Zero has always had a Fox, why is it then when he uses it when he realizes that one of his characters isn't working that it's a problem.
I've said it once and I'll say it again; Project Matchup.

 

[Deleted member]

It's weird seeing people type VGBC, CT, and TL cause its meant to be the streamers but all I see is

VideoGameBootCamp, ClashTournaments, ToonLink

 

[Chesstiger2612]

It's weird seeing people type VGBC, CT, and TL cause its meant to be the streamers but all I see is

VideoGameBootCamp, ClashTournaments, ToonLink

At least you did better than me, I didn't recognize VGB as VGBC and was like... uh... VideoGame Brothers? Instead of Smash Brothers, kinda...

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

At least you did better than me, I didn't recognize VGB as VGBC and was like... uh... VideoGame Brothers? Instead of Smash Brothers, kinda...

Did you know VGBC really stands for, VeryGrimyBootCamp

 

[mimgrim]

So Sonic needs to be nerfed because of how Wizzy did at this latest tournament but the character that Zero busted out to trash Sonic after four straight losses to Wizzrobe is a-okay

Yeah, eff this thread as well, it's pretty trash and pointless. I know the PMBR is more sensible than most of the posters here and that's good enough for me.

Hasn't the PMBR stated that Fox and other Melee tops won't actually be changed anytime soon anyway? Maybe people don't just see the point in complaining about it?

Personally, I don't complain about any character. Almost every time I see people ask for nerfs it almost always comes across as salt to me, Brawl MK and infinities are the exception.

But I'm bad lol.

 

[Bazkip]

Falco because he has already shown a lot of might in Melee and also because I literally have only seen like 5 Falco vids

This is extremely poor reasoning. This isn't Melee, a character's dominance does not carry over exactly as is. If you've only seen 5 Falcos in PM, then you simply do not have enough knowledge or experience to accurately make this call.

 

[| Kailex |]

Wizzrobe couldve won if he tried to notice what's going on, just ike how he played safer in that last game

 

[Kankato]

I have a question for you guys. A lot of people whine about recoveries being too strong across the cast while also pointing out how amazing new edguarding tools are. Are people just still unfamiliar with how to edgeguard or is there a discrepancy here?

 

[| Kailex |]

Instead of crying like the assholes they are, they could try to learn how to edgeguard them.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I have a question for you guys. A lot of people whine about recoveries being too strong across the cast while also pointing out how amazing new edguarding tools are. Are people just still unfamiliar with how to edgeguard or is there a discrepancy here?

People are not using those edgeguard tools good enough:
- RARWD/RAR -> grab ledge
- ledge invincibility dropzone aerial (hard to believe since it is so obvious)
- hitting someone who got onstage with a reverse hitbox to send them off again
- offstage edgeguarding in general because

• Offstage edgeguarding is risky but rewarding, while on-stage edgeguarding is safer but less rewarding.

while Melee is more about onstage edgeguarding / edgehogging.

I actually like PM's concept of recoveries because Smash is a game of interaction and now it is about creative edgeguarding (like creative combos) to avoid getting beat by buffed recoveries (or in the analogy: DI). This sets Smash apart from other fighting games.
But at some points I can see the critique because:

• A fast-paced game

• Recoveries generally require great skill to use, with the advantage usually being with the edgeguarding player, with some exceptions.

which sometimes contradicts a bit to the first post. Some recoveries not included in the exceptions are not giving the advantage to the edgeguarding player (assuming exceptions only mean characters that are known for having great recovery in the entire sequel or need it for game design / balance reason) and some can stall out pretty long.

As result, it is pretty hard making edgeguarding interactive while keeping an advantage for the edgeguarder and while not slowing the game down which leads to these "contradictions". Still, people aren't using edgeguarding tools right

 

[didds]

So Sonic needs to be nerfed because of how Wizzy did at this latest tournament but the character that Zero busted out to trash Sonic after four straight losses to Wizzrobe is a-okay

Yeah, eff this thread as well, it's pretty trash and pointless. I know the PMBR is more sensible than most of the posters here and that's good enough for me.

I pride myself on being senseless
which is quite senseless to begin with
does this make sense?

- ledge invincibility dropzone aerial (hard to believe since it is so obvious)

Oh and this right here! One of the best answers to tether recoveries in case anyone still has zero clue how to edgeguard them. Not saying tethers aren't good still, but they do have answers.

 

[Kankato]

As result, it is pretty hard making edgeguarding interactive while keeping an advantage for the edgeguarder and while not slowing the game down which leads to these "contradictions". Still, people aren't using edgeguarding tools right

I always thought of edgeguarding as somewhere between reaction and mixup where the interaction was heavily sided toward the onstage contestant landing a good read or reaction. If you end up offstage & need to recover, your opponent has to intercept whatever you do. Your job is to evade their efforts however possible. If you lose, you die. If you win (depending on HOW you "win"), you're still not in a very good position stage control wise. Thus was the penalty for getting hit offstage in the first place, which is why players focused on the onstage game so much.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Okay, I'll address a few things:

1. Yes I did pull Mewtwo's placement out of my rear, for some reason he seems very difficult to place even though he seems to be an excellent character. As I want my tier list to be more of a representation of what we think, I will bump him up.

2. While it generally isn't a very good idea to use a previous game to justify a character's placement, I believe I had at least a few good reasons. For one, this game is almost an exact continuation of Melee, and while I understand a lot has changed in PM, I believe the few matches I've seen him in gives me a good feel for where he should be. However there is always room for doubt so please call as you see it.


I will continue to refine my list before setting up the lower tiers now, and I thank you all for your help. I urge you to question everything and anything you see fit within reason. As without a little discussion and -at times- controversy, there would be no improvements of the quality of tier lists. If you wish to read my updated list, check back one page anytime after approximately 5 minutes after this post posts. Thank you.

 

[Soft Serve]

Im so glad i missed this thread the last few days. Almost everyone attacks fox for the wrong reasons imo.

This thread makes me so happy that the based PMBR doesnt listen to our complaints. It would just turn into brawl minus.

Melee and melee player bashing makes us look like **** btw. I also highly question the melee knowledge of some people here too lol. Fox doesnt dominate every matchup. He isnt the best because he bops everyone 70/30. He is the best because he has the most flexibility and adaptation potential to fit every situation. He benifits in more microsituations than other characters. He still has to play smash and respect opponents options in nuetral. Expecially at highlevels of play, fox is kept pretty "honest." At the level of play pm is at right now (outside the gods and tippity top players) falco is probably a better character. Its like that in melee still. Leffen, hax and westballz said on stream a few weeks ago that they honestly think martg beats fox at highest levels of play. Translating this to pm, where everyone and their boomerang does marths job better, i honestly dont know.

Now im just waiting for umbreon or someone to come in and blow everyone up (me includes of course) for being wrong and stupid and bad.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Well Fox>Falco in PM otherwise I agree.
Mainly for the same reasons as in Melee, plus who does better against floaties? Fox or Falco? Why do people claim Jiggs isn't top tier anymore? Fox or Falco? Guess which type we do have more in PM?

 

[didds]

wait, but, um... usmash?

 

[DMG]

I'll take Umbreon's place

Fox rox

Falco lackos

(Idk but rly Fox is good)

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Wow how can one person be 100% wrong so many times in a post. It's almost like you're saying things just to say them, and then your justification is "well I mean ya' know, mindgames and balance".

First of all I wrote that post at 4 in the morning so I apologize if my thoughts came out as scattered. Second there are lots of mind games you can do while tethering. Do you tether quickly or stall then tether? Do you tether but then cancel it into another recovery move? Third if all tethers were changed to the Melee style then ZSS, Olimar, Ivysaur, and Lucas would need there recoveries to be completely redesigned. (Lucas Up B is horrible) While you could just change Link, Samus, and Tink to the Melee style, it would be very weird to have some characters operate under different mechanics than others. Fourth just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you have the right to be a jerk.

 

[mimgrim]

....I always, and still do, considered Falco as the better one in Melee. But eh, that's kinda off topic.

But anyway. I find it pointless to complain about characters that are "too good" (emphasis on the quotation marks), as they are generally manageable one way or another (especially in Project M). Instead I'll complain about the characters that are too bad, and even that is light, lol.

 

[Paradoxium]

Well my opinions are usually wrong lol, but the characters who i think have the potential to be the best are , , , ,,.

because he is a character with excellent running speed and safe shield pressure combined with high kill power. All 3 of those attributes combined make a very good character. But Fox is a fast faller, and his recovery is only decent. He still gets combo-ed and chain grabbed as well as gimped. Up smashes and up throws **** him over. There is also the fact that his lasers suck, so he cant camp you out anymore,so he basically has to go in and i dont think his nair is as effective as it was in melee. I don't think hes the best anymore but I'm not gonna ignore his offensive capabilities. So i believe in the possibility that he may still be the best.

Because he has speed, an excellent grab game, excellent recovery, and excellent disjoints. He would probably be the best if he had the ko power of fox, because from what I,ve seen and experienced that doesn't seem to be the case. But it doesnt matter because MK is like amazing. His attacks come out fairly quickly and are very useful.

mostly because of his movement, like 90% movement. Its like you cant even fight this character, you just have to predict when he will come in and just hope to god you guess right. He gets easy KOs, people say his weakness is in his kill power but i really don't see it. Hes got an excellent combo game as well.

amazing recovery, great projectiles, great kill power and kill set ups, odd floatyness(which is a pro and con), Zair (like really this move is cheap), and her up b oos. This is a character who can deal with pressure, rack up damage, kill, and recover. She just seems like a really good character, good enough to be the best.

when he came out in 2.5 we all new this would happen. A lot of us didn't even bother to play the character but we all new he would be really really good. He only kind of lacking in his recovery, which is still better than Fox's. I think his bananas combined with his movement and excellent attacks just allows him to lock down almost every option.

I don't think hes over rated. He has Safe pressure, excellent projectile game, multiple approach options, spike/meteor kills, regular ko power, a tether grab with a KO up throw, decent recovery, and that amazing combo game. People say he is over rated yet this character still has a lot of room to grow and develop.

Yea i know my post sound like some scrub who thinks he knows what hes talking about (which is kind of true), but i have a hard time trying to get my points across and i didnt really feel like going into immense detail about this whole thing. This is a pretty generic list, and i didnt put diddy up there because of all the recent diddy hype. And Im not to confident in Lucas, i mean hes good but is he that good. I think that he could be, he has all of the tools to do well, and i think his tools are better than like every other characters lol. Samus because i think that character is gahlike. Sonic because he is a character that is blown way out of smash proportions. Movement like that is insane. Even in 2.6 i thought he was good, because with movement like that you will always have a big advantage over most opponents. I actually put him as my solid #1. Yea thats right right, I think sonic is the best in the game. (But if Shadow was in the game he would beat the **** out of sonic) Metaknight is just very solid as well. A character with that kind of range and speed and grab is just an amazing combination. All of his moves are just perfect (Except for that super janky dair). And Fox because you know, 12 year meta game, fast, strong bla bla bla people dont wanna learn the match up bla bla bla... I actually think Fox's effectiveness is on a decline, because more people realize that the next patch isnt coming out anytime soon, so rather than crying about it on the tier list speculation thread they are learning the ****ing match up.

Yep there you have it, Paradoxium's stupid opinions.

You see that? I've thought Sonic was the best for a long time and I didn't even see ceo. (btw if anyone has any ceo footage please link it to me, ty in advance) I think he is a broken mess, I think he has a kit that doesn't even belong in smash.

I want to remove Fox and diddy kong from the list. Imo those 2 characters are overrated.
And i want to replace them with M2.

 

[Zx2963]

You see that? I've thought Sonic was the best for a long time and I didn't even see ceo. (btw if anyone has any ceo footage please link it to me, ty in advance) I think he is a broken mess, I think he has a kit that doesn't even belong in smash.

I want to remove Fox and diddy kong from the list. Imo those 2 characters are overrated.
And i want to replace them with M2.

Mewtwo is broken though :3

 

[DMG]

Sonic doesn't belong in a Smash game. He's basically a living Blue Pinball, fueled by massive narcotics.

Spoiler

 

[Scuba Steve]

**** Sonic.

 

[didds]

I don't mind Sonic, unless he's being rude. Which is kind of often actually.

 

[Kankato]

I don't mind Sonic unless he's being rude. Which is kind of often actually.

Taunt Cancels.

"You're too SLOW!"

"You're too You're SLOW too You're SLOW too SLOW You're SLOW too You're SLOW too You're SLOW too You're SLOW too You're SLOW too You're SLOW too SLOW You're SLOW too You're SLOW too You're SLOW too You're SLOW too SLOW You're SLOW too You're SLOW too You're SLOW too You're SLOW too SLOW You're SLOW too You're SLOW too You're SLOW too You're SLOW too SLOW You're SLOW too You're SLOW too SLOW!"

*Smug Finger Wag*

 

[Pseudomaniac]

Taunt cancel broken plz nerf

 

[GP&B]

I've had some people throw an absolute fit with me when I taunt cancel with Toon Link.

UWUAHUAHUWUAHUAHUWUAHUAHUWUAHUAHUWUAHUAHUWUAHUAHUWUAHUAHUWUAHUAH

 

[Kankato]

I've had some people throw an absolute fit with me when I taunt cancel with Toon Link.

UWUAHUAHUWUAHUAHUWUAHUAHUWUAHUAHUWUAHUAHUWUAHUAHUWUAHUAHUWUAHUAH

Hands off Hands my off Hands prey my off Hands prey my Hands off prey Hands my off prey my Piece of Cake.

Seriously though, every character should have taunt spam in some form.

 

[Mr.Random]

Melee Marth is better than Project M Marth in my opinion, but he definitely isn't low tier.

Wtf? You do realize Marth was slightly buffed from Melee to PM?

 

[mimgrim]

Wtf? You do realize Marth was slightly buffed from Melee to PM?

Melee Marth is still better, in terms of each game's metagame. When you compare them in a vacuum then yea PM Marth is going to be the better one obviously. PM Marth has a lot more to work with however, and everything that made Melee Marth unique is no longer unique to Marth.

 

[Mr.Random]

Y'know Fox and Falco have already been nerfed quite a bit. Sonic vs Fox is definitely in Sonic's favor. Zero played the match up perfectly and it isn't like he 4 stocked Wizzy. It was extremely close.

 

[DMG]

When Fox plays a MU "perfect", you don't really hear the additional phrase, "But the other guy still wins"