Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

Zelda is definitely not top 10.

High-Nerfing would be appreciated, but its not really neccesary.

What? How can you appreciate a nerf but at the same time not think it's necessary? If a nerf is not necessary, it shouldn't happen. Sorry, but you're basically saying "these characters are not overpowered, but I would like them to be nerfed anyway because they're difficult for me to fight against."

 

[Phan7om]

If I were to make a tier list of 3.02, here's what it'd be

Top-May need some nerfing, but other characters just may need buffs to compete better with these 8.

High-Nerfing would be appreciated, but its not really neccesary

Mid-Don't really need nerfs or buffs

Low-Could use some buffing

Just Bad- Need buffs

Explanations
Top Tier-Lucario
Unexplored. This dude is Street Fighter, insane combos. But no one has really played him in big name tournies.

Mid Tier-Marth
He's a lot weaker compared to Melee Marth and is much more reliant on his spacing compared to it. His grabs also aren't as deadly as the Melee ones.

Low Tier-Sheik
All of her strengths are done better by characters in higher tiers.

I like how Kirby is both Low and Mid tier , im like Lunchables BUFF MY CHARACTER!!
Edit: Just noticed, Ganon also in there twice lol, this list must have been put together pretty damn fast xD.

 

[Exodo]

I like how Kirby is both Low and Mid tier, im like Lunchables BUFF MY CHARACTER!!

lol

 

[Zx2963]

Pit, Meta Knight, Zelda, Snake, and Sonic are not top tier. Neither is Lucario. I'd replace them with Lucas, Mario, Falco, Roy, and Wolf

 

[KayB]

Like what GP&B said earlier, though, she's crippled by her lack of mobility, and her recovery doesn't matter when most characters can KO her at extremely low percents. She's not horrible by any means, but I see a lot of people placing her in the top 10 when, in my opinion, I can think of a lot of characters better than her.

What Zelda is really good at doing though is limiting the mobility of other characters. I don't think it needs to be said that Din's Fire covers a lot of ground and thus limits movement options. She has great OoS options which, if players make a mistake on shield pressure, can punish hard. Her aerial options aren't phenomenal, but Naryu's love and her aerials can still threaten air movement, especially Naryu's love considering that it can combo into other moves well. This doesn't cover all of her lack of mobility, but it does make up for plenty.

That being said, I generally don't think Zelda is top 10. Top 15 maybe, but probably not Top 10.

Pit, Meta Knight, Zelda, Snake, and Sonic are not top tier. Neither is Lucario. I'd replace them with Lucas, Mario, Falco, Roy, and Wolf

Zelda and Sonic aren't top tier, but Roy definitely isn't top tier either. Wolf and Falco are arguably not top tier, and Mario doesn't really have the results to really back up a top tier placement. Pit, Snake, and Meta Knight are definitely top tier.

 

[EclipseKirby]

Pit, Meta Knight, Zelda, Snake, and Sonic are not top tier. Neither is Lucario. I'd replace them with Lucas, Mario, Falco, Roy, and Wolf

The hell are you smoking?

 

[Phan7om]

Tbh, the only character i think needs a "big" change would be Mewtwo... and thats not coming from a complaining standpoint, but specifically the teleport. It seems fundamentally too safe, have no idea how they can change it tho without making it garbage. Everyone else just needs a few changes here and there, just most people need to learn to adapt.

 

[Zx2963]

The hell are you smoking?

T3H P13R3?
Roy is really good though, I feel his potential needs greater exploration (look at Sethlon)

 

[EclipseKirby]

T3H P13R3?
Roy is really good though, I feel his potential needs greater exploration (look at Sethlon)

having a good player behind them is ultimately meaningless though. A lot of characters see success this way. Even if you were to say that a ton of tourney success must necessarily indicate being high tier, Roy's success is rather average.

Roy may have a great punish game, but he still has most of the problems Marth has in neutral, along with being one of the biggest examples of combo food in the game, with poor recovery to go with it. He's definitely a well balanced character in my book, but he has nothing near as dominate as what others have. Pit, for example, has a punish game to rival Roy's, but better gimping tools, more reliable finishers, and much better recovery.

 

[DrinkingFood]

How am I wrong? Fox's up throw up air doesn't work as well as it did in Melee. Waveshine>waveshine isn't guaranteed like Melee. They increased the kb of waveshine remember? Floaties=fly higher up from Shine, so Pillar Combos are less effective to an extent.

Uthrow-> upair doesn't work on heavy floaties or super heavies, just like it doesn't work on Bowser or Samus in melee. There just happens to be more of these in PM than melee because there are more characters. Waveshine does not have increased knockback, because shine does not have increased knockback. It works on all the same characters, and knocks over all the same characters, except m2 who is heavier. It has been changed, However, to not work against walls; against walls it knocks over anybody regardless of weight, because infinites are pretty stupid on a character that is already so good.
Falco's shine also has the same knockback as in melee, and his pillar combos work the same on all the same characters. And they still work great on heavy floaties- I know because I play ROB and am not immune to them. But of course, they don't work as well on floaties as they do on fast fallers, that applies to both games.
Who is feeding you all this ****ty misinformation?

 

[KayB]

^tl;dr, they did NOT increase the kb of waveshine, and characters do NOT fly higher from Falco's shine unless their weight has been tweaked with, and even then most of the time they can still be pillared.

So this isn't a matter of opinion, this is just a case of you being flat-out wrong with your information.

 

[Zx2963]

having a good player behind them is ultimately meaningless though. A lot of characters see success this way. Even if you were to say that a ton of tourney success must necessarily indicate being high tier, Roy's success is rather average.

Roy may have a great punish game, but he still has most of the problems Marth has in neutral, along with being one of the biggest examples of combo food in the game, with poor recovery to go with it. He's definitely a well balanced character in my book, but he has nothing near as dominate as what others have. Pit, for example, has a punish game to rival Roy's, but better gimping tools, more reliable finishers, and much better recovery.

Never thought Roy was high tier, but he's better then Zelda, Meta Knight, etc.

 

[GP&B]

Roy is definitely not better than Meta Knight.

 

[KayB]

Never thought Roy was high tier, but he's better then Zelda, Meta Knight, etc.

Roy > Zelda is an argument I can see going either way. Roy is definitely not better than MK though imo.

 

[SShane]

I think a lot of people underestimate Olimar he is definitely not bottom tier in this game he has a lot of great combos and can effectively keep an opponent out , his u-smash is a great anti air and has plenty of priority over many moves making it hard for an enemy to land on the ground and also leads into a combo. once the pikmin have bloomed they get even more ridiculous priority and can well keep olimar ahead in the game doing supreme amounts of damage. Olimars recovery isnt half bad to so people should consider placing olimar higher on the tier list

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

The entire issue with this thread here is that it involves a lot of people making statements, which often tend to be disagreeable, without any thought, research, actual information or adequate justification, leading to a lot of arguments rather than actual discussion anywhere at all.

Typical internet forum stuff, but the thread's pretty vague and allows for that

 

[Deleted member]

I also think olimar is under rated.

 

[KayB]

I think a lot of people underestimate Olimar he is definitely not bottom tier in this game he has a lot of great combos and can effectively keep an opponent out , his u-smash is a great anti air and has plenty of priority over many moves making it hard for an enemy to land on the ground and also leads into a combo. once the pikmin have bloomed they get even more ridiculous priority and can well keep olimar ahead in the game doing supreme amounts of damage. Olimars recovery isnt half bad to so people should consider placing olimar higher on the tier list

Are you ever traveling to a PM major anytime in the future?

 

[victinivcreate1]

Uthrow-> upair doesn't work on heavy floaties or super heavies, just like it doesn't work on Bowser or Samus in melee. There just happens to be more of these in PM than melee because there are more characters. Waveshine does not have increased knockback, because shine does not have increased knockback. It works on all the same characters, and knocks over all the same characters, except m2 who is heavier. It has been changed, However, to not work against walls; against walls it knocks over anybody regardless of weight, because infinites are pretty stupid on a character that is already so good.
Falco's shine also has the same knockback as in melee, and his pillar combos work the same on all the same characters. And they still work great on heavy floaties- I know because I play ROB and am not immune to them. But of course, they don't work as well on floaties as they do on fast fallers, that applies to both games.
Who is feeding you all this ****ty misinformation?

As for waveshine, if thats the case, then why do I have to WALK UP to someone after I shine and wavedash to actually get a true shine combo? Don't believe me? Its all over the Fox boards. Some dude says "I wanna beat all my friends easy how do I waveshine"? Answer is "do what you did in Melee". Then the TC says "but its not working, they go back too far for the wavedash to keep up". Then the responder then says "walk up a little afterwards to true combo". In Melee I didn't have to walk up at all. I could just shine>wavedash>shine easy. As for the wall thing, since when were wall stages legal in PM tournies? Or Melee tournies for that matter (like 2005? LOL)? I see no problem with the wall thing tbh, but to each their own I guess.

Falco's Pillars aren't as effective in today's metagame (should have explained it better, my fault). In Melee, the only real floaties in top tier was Jiggs and Peach and there were only one of them for each character (Hungrybox and Armada). In PM you have TONS of viable floaties like Mewtwo, Samus, Kirby, etc. They're great on fast fallers still, and the one frame of leeway for short hop execution is a big win for him. But floaties are a lot more prevalent in this metagame. Combine that most characters now give spacies a good fight, Falco does have a harder time in PM, which is why I don't consider him top tier, or the best high tier.

 

[Zx2963]

Roy > Zelda is argument I can see going either way. Roy is definitely not better than MK though imo.

What's so good about MK

 

[mimgrim]

MK is little, fast, has disjoints everywhere basically, godly tech chaser, multiple jumps, quite a few ways to mix up recovery, great neutral game, transcendent priority, and sword.

What the hell is bad about him???????????????????

Other then the regular things that Spacies also have a problem with.

 

[victinivcreate1]

What's so good about MK

MK loses to one thing. Crouch cancelling. How can he beat that? Dash up smash/grab. MK has no real weaknesses.

-4 midair jumps+Shuttle Loop Glide/Mach Tornado=Excellent recovery
-Great combos, even with nerfed up air that still has a near guaranteed Shuttle Loop
-Small, hard to hit, very quick ground movement
-Transcendent, disjointed hitboxes in Galaxia.
-This goes back to point 4, the transcendent properties of his nair make it an incredible SHFFL approach
-Powerful KO moves in forward smash, down smash, Down B, Shuttle Loop, Glide Attack, and bair.
-Handles spacies well.
-Can be played with many styles due to his excellent design. Can be played campy and slow, abusing his range and transcendent priority to cut through moves, or offensively, applying pressure and ripping through any type of counter strike with his transcendent moves.
-Range comparable to Marth, while having much less start up lag.
-Incredible grab game and tech chase game.

 

[jtm94]

I hate the anti-bandwagoners who try to be righteous like... knew I would see Sonic and Fox complained about.. etc... etc. All of these opinions are mere whims and my post isn't even accomplishing anything besides fueling fire.

Like these characters aren't some of the most complained about already. I know for a fact I didn't like Sonic's design back after he was nerfed still. His homing attack went half FD length and was amazing. So they shorten it and try to make it not that usable... guess what? move that plays the game for you is good no matter how much range it has, unless the hitbox is taken off of it completely. Can my character get homing versions of their nairs and neutral Bs? Regardless homing attack isn't that good because you can punish it from a distance kind of. I wish it wasn't as fast so it didn't combo/gimp as stupidly as it does while not needing him to even jump, but Sonic still doesn't belong in this game the way he is. He isn't a smash character, he's a moving hitbox that doesn't function in a manner that corresponds to this game. He has amazing tilts, smashes, and all that, but they are never used because it's more beneficial to spin and drag people across the stage with his B moves. This isn't to say I think Squirtle is the best designed, but at least he doesn't have 80 moves that look and act like his Side B and he only uses SideB or can cancel his SideB into better attacks.

MK is an amazing character. I hear having the fastest disjointed moves in the game is good along with uair chains on anyone because why have endlag? With amazing tech chase setups and ground speed to back it all up. Least favorite characters to face based on stupidity of design. Sonic, Sonic, Meta Knight, Fox, Diddy Kong, Mario, Mewtwo, Snake.

 

[shairn]

MK has a longer sword than Marth.

 

[DrinkingFood]

As for waveshine, if thats the case, then why do I have to WALK UP to someone after I shine and wavedash to actually get a true shine combo? Don't believe me? Its all over the Fox boards. Some dude says "I wanna beat all my friends easy how do I waveshine"? Answer is "do what you did in Melee". Then the TC says "but its not working, they go back too far for the wavedash to keep up". Then the responder then says "walk up a little afterwards to true combo". In Melee I didn't have to walk up at all. I could just shine>wavedash>shine easy. As for the wall thing, since when were wall stages legal in PM tournies? Or Melee tournies for that matter (like 2005? LOL)? I see no problem with the wall thing tbh, but to each their own I guess.

Falco's Pillars aren't as effective in today's metagame (should have explained it better, my fault). In Melee, the only real floaties in top tier was Jiggs and Peach and there were only one of them for each character (Hungrybox and Armada). In PM you have TONS of viable floaties like Mewtwo, Samus, Kirby, etc. They're great on fast fallers still, and the one frame of leeway for short hop execution is a big win for him. But floaties are a lot more prevalent in this metagame. Combine that most characters now give spacies a good fight, Falco does have a harder time in PM, which is why I don't consider him top tier, or the best high tier.

But for most characters in melee you did have to walk a little to get the second shine to connect. It depends on the character's friction and weight. On Luigi it doesn't work at all. Same probably goes for other low friction characters in PM like squirtle, lucas, m2 (granted those first two get knocked down anyways). Only some characters in Melee could you repeatedly shine without walking; the rest slid too far because of their low traction and the same is true of those characters in PM.

And when did I ever say anything about Falco's tier placement? The only thing I said was that you are spouting nonsense about differences that don't exist, like falco's shine having more knockback. Even on most floaties falco can still combo just fine.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I hate the anti-bandwagoners who try to be righteous like... knew I would see Sonic and Fox complained about.. etc... etc. All of these opinions are mere whims and my post isn't even accomplishing anything besides fueling fire.

Like these characters aren't some of the most complained about already. I know for a fact I didn't like Sonic's design back after he was nerfed still. His homing attack went half FD length and was amazing. So they shorten it and try to make it not that usable... guess what? move that plays the game for you is good no matter how much range it has, unless the hitbox is taken off of it completely. Can my character get homing versions of their nairs and neutral Bs?

MK is an amazing character. I hear having the fastest disjointed moves in the game is good along with uair chains on anyone because why have endlag? With amazing tech chase setups and ground speed to back it all up. Least favorite characters to face based on stupidity of design. Sonic, Sonic, Meta Knight, Fox, Diddy Kong, Mario, Mewtwo, Snake.

At least Snake and Mewtwo are not noob friendly. Both require smart, technical play. And no Mewtwo is anywhere near mastering full usage of Teleport. Just everyone else hasn't learned that you can BEAT TP by just putting a hitbox out when he reappears (for simplicity, lets say Ike's jab combo) in place when you expect him to TP in front of you. At SKTAR Professor Pro actually had the right idea in game 1, where he was grabbing him out of TP, mortaring and having the shell go behind when Emu wooped behind, and placing mines at proper angles to minimize TP warps from edge to onstage. But then he stopped for some reason.

also @ shairn Marth and MK outrange eachother at their best angles. They're about equal. Just MK is faster and doesn't have to commit to anything to start combos.

@ DrinkingFood yeah tbh IDK where I got that increased KB nonsense from lmao. My bad.

 

[didds]

Mewtwo isn't only good because of TP, it's a combination of many strong, low risk options

 

[jtm94]

MK has a longer sword tha MArth factually, and is equal with Ike. The thing is Marth takes a huge step with his fsmash and most attacks so it goes further while MK doesn't have arms or legs to really reach. Kind of like how Mario has no sword, but reverse fsmash can outrange Marth because he takes a ludicrous step.

And yeah you can beat TP by throwing out a hitbox, but that isn't why it's good. It is unpredictable and hard to know when the M2 is coming in, if at all. He has a solid projectile and can go from throwing that into teleport fair that KOs around 100 on frame 4-5? TP can also turn edgeguards of your opponent into your own gimps by teleporting behind them and bairing. His nair is an amazing move that beats out a lot of other moves and is + on shield when float-cancelled as most of his moves can be.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Mewtwo isn't only good because of TP, it's a combination of many strong, low risk options

Teleport hover nair is the main one people complain about. The tail thing I agree needs to be reworked. And his weight needs to be lowered so he can't CC dtilt and get an 80% combo. I'd get bodied by Emukiller anyday, but the people at SKTAR were just getting hit by obvious things. I mean as smart of players that Armada and Mew2King are, they got wrecked by a dude spamming WoopHovernair. And the only one who was actually smart enough to counter it was Pro (I especially like the Cypher OoS). But he stopped for some reason.

@ jtm94 Nair is +2 on shield. Fair and dair are +4 and +5. Nair is beatable. The latter moves aren't.

Emukiller's TPs were obvious and easy to read. Offstage? Grab edge. He always went for edge. Plus Emukiller didn't look like he had mastered TP enough so it autocancelled from offstage, and you were grabbing the edge, so it was unpunishable. Neutral game? Throw hitboxes behind you so he couldn't woop behind shadow ball, and once he started attacking your front, put hitboxes in front. Nair? Its only +2. Many characters can Up B OoS. Samus, Marth, Mario, MK, Snake, and there's more too.

 

[PlateProp]

I hate the anti-bandwagoners who try to be righteous like... knew I would see Sonic and Fox complained about.. etc... etc. All of these opinions are mere whims and my post isn't even accomplishing anything besides fueling fire.

Like these characters aren't some of the most complained about already. I know for a fact I didn't like Sonic's design back after he was nerfed still. His homing attack went half FD length and was amazing. So they shorten it and try to make it not that usable... guess what? move that plays the game for you is good no matter how much range it has, unless the hitbox is taken off of it completely. Can my character get homing versions of their nairs and neutral Bs? Regardless homing attack isn't that good because you can punish it from a distance kind of. I wish it wasn't as fast so it didn't combo/gimp as stupidly as it does while not needing him to even jump, but Sonic still doesn't belong in this game the way he is. He isn't a smash character, he's a moving hitbox that doesn't function in a manner that corresponds to this game. He has amazing tilts, smashes, and all that, but they are never used because it's more beneficial to spin and drag people across the stage with his B moves. This isn't to say I think Squirtle is the best designed, but at least he doesn't have 80 moves that look and act like his Side B and he only uses SideB or can cancel his SideB into better attacks.

MK is an amazing character. I hear having the fastest disjointed moves in the game is good along with uair chains on anyone because why have endlag? With amazing tech chase setups and ground speed to back it all up. Least favorite characters to face based on stupidity of design. Sonic, Sonic, Meta Knight, Fox, Diddy Kong, Mario, Mewtwo, Snake.

Sadly most Squirtle heretics only use side b alldayerryday...

 

[Jellyfish4102]

The spacies are highly over rated in my opinion. Nearly every character in PM is built to fight them. The reason there so over rated is highly skilled players happen to play as them. If Melee didn't exist and PM was exactly as it is now then I'm certain people wouldn't think they're top tier.

 

[GP&B]

Which brings up the great disparity in their existence in the first place. These characters (or at least Fox more so than Falco) are being used because they're already known to be strong, effective characters. It completely subverts the fact that PM is effectively the Melee engine full of a cast of characters that were either completely reinvented or revamped enough that their metas have significantly changed, to the point of a near-reset for most (and a re-initiation for veterans who were unviable and thus less developed). Spacies, or at least Fox specifically can and probably will get away with being a strong force for quite a while simply because he is still extremely powerful in the neutral. Until Fox is shown to be anything weaker than dominant in probably the most important part of the game, why should he be anything other than top tier?

 

[Saproling]

Melee players will never adapt to new characters simply because they don't want too they only join PM to try and earn some extra cash.Foxes will be present that wont change whining about it does nothing.All the PM community can do is learn this game well enough that the foxes cant win anymore and they will just stop eventually.

 

[shairn]

Melee players will never adapt to new characters simply because they don't want too they only join PM to try and earn some extra cash.Foxes will be present that wont change whining about it does nothing.All the PM community can do is learn this game well enough that the foxes cant win anymore and they will just stop eventually.

Meanwhile M2K, Chu Dat, Armada, Hungrybox, Chillindude, and many other top melee players finding success with updated PM characters.

 

[Halfhead]

I am confident that a good Squirtle player counters Fox. There just... aren't any good Squirtle players yet.

 

[Ace55]

She has a great up-smash/d-smash Oos and f-smash has a large hitbox and hits hard. I wouldn't necessarily call her top tier though, but I'm fairly confident she's around high tier.

Even with the fastest dsmash I really doubt drop shield -> dsmash is fast enough to be a reliable OoS option...

Melee players will never adapt to new characters simply because they don't want too they only join PM to try and earn some extra cash.Foxes will be present that wont change whining about it does nothing.All the PM community can do is learn this game well enough that the foxes cant win anymore and they will just stop eventually.

Yes lets alienate those damn melee players. How dare they pick characters they're familiar with in a game which they probably haven't played much. And then they have the audacity to be better than a lot of pure, noble PM players. It makes me so mad sometimes.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

MK loses to one thing. Crouch cancelling. How can he beat that? Dash up smash/grab. MK has no real weaknesses.

-4 midair jumps+Shuttle Loop Glide/Mach Tornado=Excellent recovery
-Great combos, even with nerfed up air that still has a near guaranteed Shuttle Loop
-Small, hard to hit, very quick ground movement
-Transcendent, disjointed hitboxes in Galaxia.
-This goes back to point 4, the transcendent properties of his nair make it an incredible SHFFL approach
-Powerful KO moves in forward smash, down smash, Down B, Shuttle Loop, Glide Attack, and bair.
-Handles spacies well.
-Can be played with many styles due to his excellent design. Can be played campy and slow, abusing his range and transcendent priority to cut through moves, or offensively, applying pressure and ripping through any type of counter strike with his transcendent moves.
-Range comparable to Marth, while having much less start up lag.
-Incredible grab game and tech chase game.

MK hasn't really great combos, more like Fox-type hit stringing / tech-chasing / two-hit-combos, but not like falcesque combos
MK doesn't lose to crouch-cancelling. You can't cover both: his grabs and his run-cancel attacks.
Projectiles and shielding aerial approaches is more of a problem for MK, he has also ways to handle it though (tomahawk, crossup air, fade away nair, spaced d-tilt to bait)

 

[| Kailex |]

Ganon is broken pls nerf kthnx

 

[Pseudomaniac]

I think by this point the game's balance is done well enough that very few nerfs are really needed. People need time to figure out the new matchups, and I think once they do characters like Mewtwo, Sonic, and even Fox will seem more manageable. Fox could do with a few nerfs to his killing power, but I wouldn't be devastated if it didn't happen. Same thing with the speed on Mario's super fast fireballs. Right now, I think the focus needs to be on helping out the bottom characters reach the point where they're definitely viable rather than maybe viable. This definitely includes Luigi, Ice Climbers, Ganondorf, Ness, King Dedede, and R.O.B., and maybe could include Squirtle, Toon Link, Pikachu, Olimar, and Mr. Game & Watch. Even these characters don't need drastic changes; just little tweaks to help them out (mostly in neutral, although Luigi's recovery could use some help and Squirtle could use a little more KO power).

tl;dr I think the high tier is fine as is for the most part and the next balance patch should be more focused on helping the low tier.

 

[didds]

I am confident that a good Squirtle player counters Fox. There just... aren't any good Squirtle players yet.

Very bold statement, Squirtle can manage fox just fine, but I'd disagree that he counters Fox. One good tech chase at 70+ percent is a killer usmash on Squirtle. And that's not a read, just a watch and follow since Squirtle's techs are pathetically short. Squirtle can also be shined out of UpB if approached from the top so he isn't immune to Fox gimps either.

I will say that I think Squirtle is very underrated and underexplored and is underrepresented.
I will also say that Squirtle's kill power isn't really too much of an issue. Usmash is absurd, he has a kill throw with a DI mixup that can land a free fair. Dtilt and Dsmash can lead into Fairs and Bairs and with Squirtle's ludicrous neutral game it isn't exactly hard to get in. Uair can kill floaties.

Ask most Squirtle players and I'm sure they'd prefer better tech rolls before getting more kill power.
Squirtle struggles in some aspects, but he's blessed with a powerful movement game which goes extremely far in Smash Bros if played intelligently.

Actually nevermind, Buff plz