Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

Aero was the first TL I heard of as being good, then Jolteon, then Lunchables. Inspired me to play Toon Link because he is more fun for me than Link and I just like throwing stuff.

I do have a friend who solely plays Link, and some Marth. He completely thinks Toon Link is worse in every way, but is faster. To each their own I guess.

i think TL is generally worse too actually, although not by much and for reasons that are hard to compare.

 

[trash?]

the reason is boomerang. the reason is always boomerang

 

[Strong Badam]

dazee quit a long af time ago, I think okami was actually considered a good toonlink. Aero got known in early 3.0 I think?

and dazee was never very good (sorry daz)

 

[KayB]

and dazee was never very good (sorry daz)

Because he's so gonna read that, right?

 

[Chevy]

People like Ivy simply cannot clank with the fireball due to how much damage it deals and how their Nair is a series of 1% hits.

Fireballs would have to do 9% more than a move to not clank. They only do 8%, which I feel is too much for something that spammable, but they literally can not out-prioritize any move in the game.

 

[trash?]

except for the moves that cannot clank at all

because they exist

and the character that I play has them on every move except for his dash attack

;-;

 

[Juushichi]

Really, fireballs and boomerang are the two dumbest parts of this game.

I think that both of those things pale in comparison to THE WOOP.

 

[Paradoxium]

Against Mario I just choose sheik, that match up feels so free lol.

 

[1FD]

Paradoxium that sounds crazy to me since I've always thought it was one of the mildly scarier situations for Sheik in melee
But in PM it's even scarier
To each their own or whatever that saying is

 

[Nguz95]

People have a tendency to forget that Sheik's fair still kills everybody, Mario included.

 

[Paradoxium]

Paradoxium that sounds crazy to me since I've always thought it was one of the mildly scarier situations for Sheik in melee
But in PM it's even scarier
To each their own or whatever that saying is

Eh, it just feels free for me, and i don't even main sheik lol. I just love spacing ftilts and grabbing him. Like everything sheik has leads into fair on mario. And he's not too difficult to edge guard with sheik. But i'm no pro sheik player or anything, like i said i dont even main the character. But that match-up just feels so easy when i play as sheik.

and Link is such a filthy character

 

[jtm94]

I have a hard time dealing with projectiles as Sheik. Needles don't come out as fast as fireballs and she has bad air mobility so it's hard to jump over them and not get hit.

 

[Roxas215]

Playing PM for about 2 months now. My honest opnion on top characters in the game. I would love to be proven wrong though


Mewtwo
Fox
Wolf
Diddy
Falco
Lucas
Mario
Mk
Link
Snake

I really want to put Marth and Zelda in top 10 but idk who to take out. Lol.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Playing PM for about 2 months now.



Mewtwo
Fox
Wolf
Diddy
Falco
Lucas
Mario
Mk
Link
Snake

I really want to put Marth and Zelda in top 10 but idk who to take out. Lol.

-plays PM 4 2 months
-makes top 10 list
-puts link on it
-has snake on it
-wants Zelda in it

No.

 

[NWRL]

Who is the best of the Fire Emblem characters?

 

[steelguttey]

Who is the best of the Fire Emblem characters?

lyn

 

[Soft Serve]

lyn

Hector

 

[TheJedi]

fox is not top tier. has poor matchups with almost every one in game.

 

[NWRL]

Ephraim pls PMBR

 

[Broasty]

As far as Tier lists go, honestly the only thing I can say for sure is Mewtwo is top tier after we saw the power of the Whoop.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

I still believe Charizard, Dedede and Olimar are worst of the worst in this game. (Few examples coming up, not a lot) I know people think Charizard and Dedede are underrated (or in Dedede's case, he's "really good"), but Charizard only has a few tools that make him stand out from everyone else (which are not good enough to actually get him as far as need be) while also being a massive target/combo fodder and having one of the strangest recoveries that doesn't actually work (no clue why PMBR left his upB as ****ty as it is, honestly), Dedede has the same size syndrome, but he works it out better than Charizard because he has disjoints and less lag on his key moves as well as an actually good projectile that you can even rethrow for fast mobility, and Olimar is Olimar. He has hitboxes and sideB, that's it. He has nothing else that is better than anyone. G&W has hitboxes while at the same time doesn't need any "powerup" to use them and has much better mobility/recovery options, while Olimar practically has none. Olimar loses Pikmin at the speed of light vs some characters and can't bring them back in a reasonable time frame while someone is breathing down his neck. The amount of Pikmin nerf hurt him more than I thought it would considering how fast this game is.

Dedede was pretty good in Brawl, but Brawl excused how sluggish Dedede truly was in it by giving him other tools. This game is too fast for Dedede to handle all the new options and insane movement the characters have.

And by "has hitboxes" I mean "has a huge hitbox size advantage on their moves".

 

[Mr.Random]

Against Mario I just choose sheik, that match up feels so free lol.

In Melee it was free but in PM good Mario's like me can stand up to Sheik. +We still have the chaingrab from Melee while you don't. I'd say it's even in this game. I have to ask which Mario players are you playing, if it's free then they are trash.

 

[Bazkip]

[...] and having one of the strangest recoveries that doesn't actually work (no clue why PMBR left his upB as ****ty as it is, honestly)

What
He has a glide and several jumps, he doesn't need a good upB because most of the time he can recover without even using it. It's not even that bad.

 

[steelguttey]

I still believe Charizard, Dedede and Olimar are worst of the worst in this game. (Few examples coming up, not a lot) I know people think Charizard and Dedede are underrated (or in Dedede's case, he's "really good"), but Charizard only has a few tools that make him stand out from everyone else (which are not good enough to actually get him as far as need be) while also being a massive target/combo fodder and having one of the strangest recoveries that doesn't actually work (no clue why PMBR left his upB as ****ty as it is, honestly), Dedede has the same size syndrome, but he works it out better than Charizard because he has disjoints and less lag on his key moves as well as an actually good projectile that you can even rethrow for fast mobility, and Olimar is Olimar. He has hitboxes and sideB, that's it. He has nothing else that is better than anyone. G&W has hitboxes while at the same time doesn't need any "powerup" to use them and has much better mobility/recovery options, while Olimar practically has none. Olimar loses Pikmin at the speed of light vs some characters and can't bring them back in a reasonable time frame while someone is breathing down his neck. The amount of Pikmin nerf hurt him more than I thought it would considering how fast this game is.

Dedede was pretty good in Brawl, but Brawl excused how sluggish Dedede truly was in it by giving him other tools. This game is too fast for Dedede to handle all the new options and insane movement the characters have.

And by "has hitboxes" I mean "has a huge hitbox size advantage on their moves".

no. he doesnt have "hitboxes and sideB", thats ignorant. olimar has combos that can take characters to 50% off of one grab, one of the strongest usmash in the game and yes while he has to "powerup", he becomes ridiculously good with a full team of flowered pikmin. and idk what you have seen but whistle recovers all pikmin and the pikmin's health have been buffed so much the only one i have ever seen die by my opponent hitting them is white. plucking doesnt take a while at all, considering how many ways olimar has to get someone off of him.

charizard's up-b is really good. i secondary zard and he does have multiple tools to stand out from everyone else, like juggles that can lead to kills if you punish di hard enough.

imo the only bad characters in pm is ice climbers and jigglypuff lol.

 

[MLGF]

Non Shielda Zelda says hi.
Seriously, she's so bad.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

no. he doesnt have "hitboxes and sideB", thats ignorant. olimar has combos that can take characters to 50% off of one grab, one of the strongest usmash in the game and yes while he has to "powerup", he becomes ridiculously good with a full team of flowered pikmin. and idk what you have seen but whistle recovers all pikmin and the pikmin's health have been buffed so much the only one i have ever seen die by my opponent hitting them is white. plucking doesnt take a while at all, considering how many ways olimar has to get someone off of him.

charizard's up-b is really good. i secondary zard and he does have multiple tools to stand out from everyone else, like juggles that can lead to kills if you punish di hard enough.

That's combos. Everyone in this game has combos for crazy damage if you let them have it. I'm talking neutral game, spacing, mobility, etc. Olimar's relies on hitboxes and sideB, and sideB can neuter you in this game if you use it recklessly, while in Brawl you could do whatever you wanted because you had so many Pikmin and neutralB was fast as all hell. That's why he was good in Brawl, alongside having his whistle armor and a floatier, slower game that allowed him to recover more than usual and space even better (though his recovery was so ass it didn't really matter). Now whistle armor is gone. He has -no- mobility in a game where mobility is much more key than any other Smash, no other special tools on stage except projectiles that throw your Pikmin away from you. He is -all- hitboxes and sideB. G&W has much more than just hitboxes and has a decent projectile now that can be crazier than Pikmin, alongside his crazy-ass upB and dair. I would rather play him.

Charizard's upB is okay, it can kill, but for recovering? The thing makes me want to cut myself. It's hilariously slow and the recovery at the end of it is laughable even when you try to sweetspot. (He also still has problems with his long ass neck/head) If you DON'T sweetspot, he hovers off (without being able to be controlled at all) for so long that even a monkey could punish him. DownB is his only other real recovery option, and that takes away all his jumps, while having very bad options to recover out of it with (downB attack is nice, but it's awful to recover with unless you platform cancel it. You can even crouch cancel it to certain percents). Pit doesn't have to commit to crap and all of Metaknight's specials are recovery options to mix things up, and he gets more jumps. Why does Charizard hurt himself by trying? Yes, they're very different characters, yet Charizard is a much easier gimp. He has that Southwest Airlines recovery.

Everyone has combos. -Everyone-. Combos do not make you a better character.

What
He has a glide and several jumps, he doesn't need a good upB because most of the time he can recover without even using it. It's not even that bad.

Yet his recovery is still as predictable and easily punishable as it's always been in this game. If you struggle to stand at the ledge and use ledge invuln to cover his hover options, you're most likely not doing it right. Downb attack only hits in one direction, if he reverses downB for mixups he can't attack back and can only upB, which only covers the distance if he was already close to the ledge to begin with. Once hover options are gone, upB is useless due to how long the sweetspot takes/how laggy it is. You get hit once out of downB or don't make it onto the stage in time, your stock is gone. Hell, you can sit right at the tip of the ledge and crouch cancel the end of upB and dsmash. His neck is so long even the best sweetspot will get hit if you go as low as possible. You're not coming back with that awful upB they call "Fly".

Meanwhile there are other chars who are flying around in the air without limits.

 

[Mr.Random]

Every character has the potential to be amazing the problem is choosing easy to pick up characters (ex. Mario and Falco) and Melee top tiers is so much easier. Like I asked my friend Danny who is a Melee player who plays PM "Do you ever experiment with other characters?" and he says "Nah just Spacies, why should I when their meta game is so developed?" Me "......." lol.

 

[Roxas215]

-plays PM 4 2 months
-makes top 10 list
-puts link on it
-has snake on it
-wants Zelda in it

No.

So please explain whats wrong with it. How is link not top 10??? Me playing PM for 2 months i think is ample time to at the very least range who is the best characters in the game. I have a very strong smash scene near me and was heavy in the brawl scene until i quit.

And like i said im open to be proven wrong. But your post just makes a biased statement.

 

[Bazkip]

Yet his recovery is still as predictable and easily punishable as it's always been in this game. If you struggle to stand at the ledge and use ledge invuln to cover his hover options, you're most likely not doing it right. Downb attack only hits in one direction, if he reverses downB for mixups he can't attack back and can only upB, which only covers the distance if he was already close to the ledge to begin with. Once hover options are gone, upB is useless due to how long the sweetspot takes/how laggy it is. You get hit once out of downB or don't make it onto the stage in time, your stock is gone. Hell, you can sit right at the tip of the ledge and crouch cancel the end of upB and dsmash. His neck is so long even the best sweetspot will get hit if you go as low as possible. You're not coming back with that awful upB they call "Fly".

Meanwhile there are other chars who are flying around in the air without limits.

So basically, your complaint is that his recovery isn't free, while it is for many others? The solution to that is definitely to not make everyone's recovery ridiculous, lol

There's plenty of characters with worse recovery. Charizard needs to mixup his options to get back, but you'll still sometimes get outplayed by your opponents. And that's completely fine.

 

[steelguttey]

That's combos. Everyone in this game has combos for crazy damage if you let them have it. I'm talking neutral game, spacing, mobility, etc. Olimar's relies on hitboxes and sideB, and sideB can neuter you in this game if you use it recklessly, while in Brawl you could do whatever you wanted because you had so many Pikmin and neutralB was fast as all hell. That's why he was good in Brawl, alongside having his whistle armor and a floatier, slower game that allowed him to recover more than usual and space even better (though his recovery was so *** it didn't really matter). Now whistle armor is gone. He has -no- mobility in a game where mobility is much more key than any other Smash, no other special tools on stage except projectiles that throw your Pikmin away from you. He is -all- hitboxes and sideB. G&W has much more than just hitboxes and has a decent projectile now that can be crazier than Pikmin, alongside his crazy-*** upB and dair. I would rather play him.

Charizard's upB is okay, it can kill, but for recovering? The thing makes me want to cut myself. It's hilariously slow and the recovery at the end of it is laughable even when you try to sweetspot. (He also still has problems with his long *** neck/head) If you DON'T sweetspot, he hovers off (without being able to be controlled at all) for so long that even a monkey could punish him. DownB is his only other real recovery option, and that takes away all his jumps, while having very bad options to recover out of it with (downB attack is nice, but it's awful to recover with unless you platform cancel it. You can even crouch cancel it to certain percents). Pit doesn't have to commit to crap and all of Metaknight's specials are recovery options to mix things up, and he gets more jumps. Why does Charizard hurt himself by trying? Yes, they're very different characters, yet Charizard is a much easier gimp. He has that Southwest Airlines recovery.

Everyone has combos. -Everyone-. Combos do not make you a better character.

what exactly do you mean by "relying on hitboxes"? everyone relies on hitboxes lol its a fighting game.

and olimars neutral game is spacing and he has as much mobility as everyone else in the game lol. he has a instant 1-frame landing on platforms and a pretty decent wavedash. take characters like marth. marth has little to no movement options and iirc olimar has a faster run/wavedash. although marth has longer disjoints what im saying is that you dont need movement options to be a good character. everyone has mobility and his isnt bad at all. he has a fluent run, a wavedash thats really smooth and fluent and a alternative to wavelanding that is even faster. his neutral is about beating out the opponent with disjoints like fair and PURPLE side-b. purple side-b is a slow moving projectile that literally combos into ANYTHING olimar has. even if it doesnt hit and gets blocked it still controls space. white side-b also has ridiculous damage and forces the opponent to press a button which sets up for easy punishes.

and yes, combos do make you a better character. faster ways to take a stock=better character. and olimar's combos are not able to escape with di btw. you can get a FREE 50% off of ONE grab if you have the right pikmin lineup. the best part is these combos end with the enemy on the other side of the map if you have a purple, or if not, a regrab with jab setups.

charizard's recovery is long and quick. it has problems but you know what? recovery is a thing that so many characters have a tough time with. falco, captain falcon, ganon, fox, bowser, squirtle, ivysaur, and donkey kong all have bad recoveries but does that make them ****? no.

 

[steelguttey]

Non Shielda Zelda says hi.
Seriously, she's so bad.

are you.. actually serious?

 

[jtm94]

Zelda is mid at best. Definitely not top. She's like Ganondorf with these amazing KO moves and no speed, but she's better because projectiles and teleport.

In that 2 month guy's top 10 the only decent MU Zelda has is Mario which is evenish, and Snake is in her favor, but she loses to the rest decisively from multiple viewpoints. I'm not saying she's bad at all. She has amazing moves, but not top 10.

 

[Roxas215]

Zelda is mid at best. Definitely not top. She's like Ganondorf with these amazing KO moves and no speed, but she's better because projectiles and teleport.

In that 2 month guy's top 10 the only decent MU Zelda has is Mario which is evenish, and Snake is in her favor, but she loses to the rest decisively from multiple viewpoints. I'm not saying she's bad at all. She has amazing moves, but not top 10.

Which is why i said idk who i can take out. I think everyone in my top 10 is better then marth and zelda even though i think those 2 are really good as well.

 

[Strong Badam]

Every character has the potential to be amazing the problem is choosing easy to pick up characters (ex. Mario and Falco) and Melee top tiers is so much easier. Like I asked my friend Danny who is a Melee player who plays PM "Do you ever experiment with other characters?" and he says "Nah just Spacies, why should I when their meta game is so developed?" Me "......." lol.

why come up with new and interesting things when you can do what someone else figured out 8 years ago with half the effort? :^)

 

[Nguz95]

To be fair, shine->usmash and nair->shine are also significantly better options than most characters have.

 

[Paradoxium]

why come up with new and interesting things when you can do what someone else figured out 8 years ago with half the effort? :^)

You should have fixed the problem at the very beginning. You could have changed them from the start, or lied about technical limitations or something. Now you're stuck with them.

But for some reason marth is very popular, even people who never played melee just love marth.

And i think Link is broken as ****

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

charizard's recovery is long and quick. it has problems but you know what? recovery is a thing that so many characters have a tough time with. falco, captain falcon, ganon, fox, bowser, squirtle, ivysaur, and donkey kong all have bad recoveries but does that make them ****? no.

This is true. But this is tier list speculation. We're talking about why certain characters are worse than others, yes? I'm saying Charizard is one of the worst we have, and those were some reasons why. Other characters with horribad recoveries make up for it with insane ground/air games onstage, like Falcon. Charizard doesn't really have a lot for neutral game. Falcon just dashes back and forth with nair presence and that alone enhances his neutral game by a ton, while Charizard struggles to be anywhere without using his predictable (but, again, effective) nair to not get hit from anywhere he goes. That's saying something.

Combos are only beneficial if your neutral game can support it. If you have no neutral game to start your combos, what are you actually going to do to any high level player who knows how to not get hit. That is why people who learn combos first don't get very far before they learn neutral game, and why I'm still not as good a player as I wish I were. I'm still learning fundamentals and neutral game myself.

This is Lucario's problem; his neutral game is not actually that great, but he has combos. And even then, all his cancels for combos can be hit hard by DI/SDI. But if he -does- get all of that off? He can 0-D someone easier than most of the Melee chars can.

And by "has hitboxes" I mean "has a huge hitbox size advantage on their moves".

I posted this on the same post above that you quoted.

Don't turn this into an argument of sarcasm and common sense. That is not what this is for and it just becomes childish. I can't see these three characters getting far at all in tournaments, of course I'm open to being proven wrong, I don't actually like seeing Charizard get his ass kicked. He's one of my favorite characters in this game, but there's no way I would ever opt to use him as is I believe.

 

[steelguttey]

olimars neutral game is crazy good wtf. he has the second highest grab range with blue/white grab and deceptively high priority on his nair and fair with some pikmin. his neutral game consists of baiting and waiting for the opponent to make a mistake, and it has worked with so many other characters in smash.

and olimar players and charizard players have def gotten far in tournaments. a d3 placed 5th or 6th i forget at apex so that should show you his potential. there is so many zard players that only go to locals that are getting really good every day. olimar players are few because people read threads like this and just assume hes terrible without looking at the character himself.

another reason why my hatred for the ct tier list grows daily.

 

[mimgrim]

Charizard has a good neutral game lol. Nair is crazy, espically when you hit with the end of it, Jab is decent, Dtilt is good, Bair is good, Fair is also decent, and he has good ground mobility (he is even faster then Falcon on the ground). How is his neutral game bad?

Let's also not forget that he has one of the best OoS options ever, his Uspecial. It has freaking invincibility on the first 3 frames (aka the start up frames). There is no way Charizard is one of the bottom 3.

The bottom 3 are pretty much agreed to be Jiggs, Ice Climbers, and Ganon.

 

[zman804]

It didn't get recorded but a local Olimar player (SS) beat HBox and Neon, taking first at a local. He beat Hbox's Jiggs, Olimar and Mario and 6-2'd Neon's Lucas in GF.

Olimar has an incredibly good (pivot) grab and gets excellent damage off of a throw. His up air and upsmash are ridiculous , and side B forces approaches n some situations.