Tier List Speculation

[JOE!]

Really, fireballs and boomerang are the two dumbest parts of this game.

 

[Apollo Ali]

Wow, have the projectile salt mines re-opened?

 

[GP&B]

I don't think people have ever forgotten. They're somewhat overcentralizing traits to both otherwise perfectly fine (well, Link would need other adjustments) characters.

 

[JOE!]

Wow, have the projectile salt mines re-opened?

Yeah dude, but it's really only those two.

You know I play a huge character, but I can deal with Falco lasers, PK Freeze, all sorts of stuff. Link's boomerang (if you're not Falcon) and Mario's Fireballs (on top of how fast he can throw out a move after having a fireball out) are kinda goofy

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Really, fireballs and boomerang are the two dumbest parts of this game.

I used to think fireballs were broken until someone told me that you can nair through them. That's literally all you have to do lol. When i was against a Mario player it was like every time he threw out a fireball he got punished, so he wasn't able to spam them like he was before. He had to start using them much smarter, instead of putting out a constant fireball wall.

But I tried nairing through links boomerang and just got hit, so I had to switch to meta knight and Marth. with Marth I just fair through everything and metaknight is fast enough to punish the start-up and end-lag of boomerangs, he can also fly over them.


And while im here im gonna drop some swift knowledge that a lot of you seem to be lacking.

Toon Link> Link

Pocket Links are sooooooo overrated. If you guys want a pocket character that will cover your mains weaker match-ups than Toon link is by far the better choice. Link and Toon Link both have weaknesses, but Links weakness's are much harder for him to overcome. Toon Link is much faster and more agile, combined with his better recovery and hit up B kill set ups.

And now I'm going post my tier list, which is more correct than any tier list you can come up with

Best tier
1-Charizard
2-Toon Link
3-Roy

Mid tier
Everyone else

Bottom tier
Luigi
ice climbers
Fox

My list is scientifically proven to be the most correct, all of your lists are bad

 

[Saproling]

Really, fireballs and boomerang are the two dumbest parts of this game.

Buff leaf please.

 

[DrinkingFood]

No last time we buffed leaf was 2.6
I still have nightmares about 2.6 leaf

 

[jtm94]

I agree with fireball being too fast for the damage and thus the stun it deals. We have characters like Pikachu who can't even act for like 30 frames after his projectile, and Mario's fireballing brother Luigi who has an inferior/slower projectile in every way. I have gotten over boomerang, it isn't quite as bad as fireball and is singular. Mewtwo can still throw shadow ball too fast as well, it should require a little longer charge time.

 

[Vashimus]

Damn, people will find something to complain about for just about anything.

Missiles only have 4 frames of landing lag and have KO potential, Samus obviously borked.

 

[jtm94]

Missiles require more than just pressing the same button. Missiles are also on Samus who cant really go out and get follow ups off of them either, unless you get that one stray homing missile that converts into something. She can shoot 1 out via land-cancelling and running with it, but any more and it's a commitment, especially standing missiles which are like standing Falco lasers.

It isn't that they have the projectiles, they are fine, but the lack of cool down or endlag means they can herp derp projectiles at a fairly close range and still evade the second you get close. This zoning ability gives already decent characters more than they needed to be viable in the first place. I could also bring up Diddy's peanut gun because that thing can fire almost as fast as fireballs, however the peanuts don't bounce to control as much space and can be used to AGT closer to the stage.

I don't want to portray the ideal of homogenizing the game, but I don't like that certain character's literately got more than they needed, people know it is more than they needed, yet keep it in the long run because they gave them it on a whim. We see worse characters who could use a worse version of the better characters thing and it would be better because it covers that characters weaknesses more thoroughly than it did the meta-esque character's weaknesses. Sorry if that is hard to envision, but I don't know how else to portray it.

TL:DR Good characters got good to really good stuff, but their worse counterparts got less or nothing. In the end it might not be about the move being too good, but if that character actually needs that move or not?

 

[Broasty]

I agree with fireball being too fast for the damage and thus the stun it deals. We have characters like Pikachu who can't even act for like 30 frames after his projectile, and Mario's fireballing brother Luigi who has an inferior/slower projectile in every way. I have gotten over boomerang, it isn't quite as bad as fireball and is singular. Mewtwo can still throw shadow ball too fast as well, it should require a little longer charge time.

You'd be surprised how much combo potential and how many kill setups Luigi's "inferior" has in comparison to Mario's. It's less of a projectile (traveling poke) and more of a combo tool. And as it was said before, you can just Nair your way through or even power shield.

 

[Saproling]

I agree with fireball being too fast for the damage and thus the stun it deals. We have characters like Pikachu who can't even act for like 30 frames after his projectile, and Mario's fireballing brother Luigi who has an inferior/slower projectile in every way. I have gotten over boomerang, it isn't quite as bad as fireball and is singular. Mewtwo can still throw shadow ball too fast as well, it should require a little longer charge time.

Slower doesn't mean inferior it just has less situations where its useful ill agree mario fire too stronk but Luigis fireball has its uses and is still completely fine.

 

[JOE!]

you can just Nair your way through or even power shield.

I don't like it when people say this. Like, Nair with who?

Charizard can Nair through most anything, but Mario is quick enough to punish a blatant attempt at a backswing, or a flubbed start-up hit due to his mobility. (and dont get me started on how his Dair actually like, eats through Zard's Up B... frustrating).

People like Ivy simply cannot clank with the fireball due to how much damage it deals and how their Nair is a series of 1% hits.

Even like, Marth's Nair is questionable (just tossing this one out there) due to the way the fireballs bounce. Don't mean to pick this apart, but it just gets on my nerves when somebody tosses out a blanket statement such as that in a game with 41 relevant characters.


Anyways, in a vacuum sure, the fireball and Boomerang are both fine moves. However the issue lies is that those moves are on Mario and Link, two characters who were heavily buffed from past games. Like, if Ganondorf had Mario's Nspec, I dont think anyone would complain about it because he lacks the mobility and quick attacks to really benefit from it in the same way Mario can. Or if like Wario had the Boomerang since he does not have the range and complimentary zoning tools to work off it like Link.

As @ jtm94 said, it's less about the actual move than the whole package when you look at the move + the character.

 

[Mr.Random]

Wow, have the projectile salt mines re-opened?

Yes they have and it's ********. Only thing broken about the Big M is his recovery. Think Fox or Falco will ever get real nerfs? Shine and lasers nerfs are ok I guess. Still want Fox up smash to have Brawl which is -10 growth so still powerful but not stupid powerful same for up air -10 growth. I won't go crazy if it doesn't happen but I wish. Still a developing metagame for other characters.

He does not have the range and complimentary zoning tools to work off it like Link.

As @ jtm94 said, it's less about the actual move than the whole package when you look at the move + the character.

Mario has bad range. Fireballs keep him from having a ton of bad MUs.

 

[Paradoxium]

I hate fireballs and boomerangs because players constantly spam them. It really isn't fun when it's just a defensive camping session, I greatly prefer watching and playing dash dance heavy games. What sucks is that there is no reason to not spam those projectiles.

And I'm sure one of you are gonna bring up falco lasers. But honestly I have a much easier time against lasers than I do with Mario and Link's projectiles.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Well Mario's lasers fireballs do more shield stun and hitstun and damage than falco's lasers, and considering how high they bounce, they cover the space immediately in front of Mario much better than Falco's laser's do. Granted, they aren't as good at controlling stage width.

 

[Problem2]

I don't like it when people say this. Like, Nair with who?

Charizard can Nair through most anything, but Mario is quick enough to punish a blatant attempt at a backswing, or a flubbed start-up hit due to his mobility. (and dont get me started on how his Dair actually like, eats through Zard's Up B... frustrating).

I would think you could nair and hit Mario at the same time, but I can't confirm this is actually possible.

People like Ivy simply cannot clank with the fireball due to how much damage it deals and how their Nair is a series of 1% hits.

What about f-air or b-air?

Even like, Marth's Nair is questionable (just tossing this one out there) due to the way the fireballs bounce. Don't mean to pick this apart, but it just gets on my nerves when somebody tosses out a blanket statement such as that in a game with 41 relevant characters.

Okay. I know that Marth's f-air beats a lot of projectiles. You're trying to pick apart his argument because he said use "n-air", and that's not 100% true, but most characters have an aerial option that beats out projectiles, with a few exceptions.

Anyways, in a vacuum sure, the fireball and Boomerang are both fine moves. However the issue lies is that those moves are on Mario and Link, two characters who were heavily buffed from past games.

I don't know. I think they're scarier in a vacuum, but it's when you see the characters the PMBR put these moves on is what makes it look passable. Even then, these projectiles could use a small tweak.

Like, if Ganondorf had Mario's Nspec, I dont think anyone would complain about it because he lacks the mobility and quick attacks to really benefit from it in the same way Mario can.

Oh lord, Ganondorf with Mario's Fireballs would be TERRIFYING!! Ganondorf wouldn't have to try so hard to trap and corner people, and unlike Mario, Ganondorf has range and he has the lunging command grab. Now I'm curious to see this in action(though I don't want it to be in an official build).

Or if like Wario had the Boomerang since he does not have the range and complimentary zoning tools to work off it like Link.

okay.

As @ jtm94 said, it's less about the actual move than the whole package when you look at the move + the character.

Agreed. I think it is a bad practice to excessively look at moves in a vacuum. The best reason to look at moves in this fashion is when you're looking at 1 move vs an entire opposing character. This is to make sure that there are not match-ups where 1 moves shuts an entire character down.[/quote]

 

[TheDuckChris]

Best tier
1-Charizard
2-Toon Link
3-Roy

Mid tier
Everyone else

Bottom tier
Luigi
ice climbers
Fox

My list is scientifically proven to be the most correct, all of your lists are bad

you forgot to put in mid tier

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Honestly, the only recovery in this game that I feel people don't actually overrate is Mewtwo's. I still struggle at punishing Lucas' because of the invuln-airdodge-tether crap, but that's a personal matter.

Every other character with an "insane, unpunishable recovery" is just people overrating everything to me. Diddy, Ivy, ROB, Lucas. A lot of complaints about those four, because no one realizes what simple tactics they need to use to make edgeguarding easier. People still don't know you can crouch cancel Diddy's upB, and try to jump offstage and hit him or use ledge invuln to try to gimp, just to get reverse gimped.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

You can nair links rang.

 

[Deleted member]

Toon Link> Link

Ha.

No.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Ha.

No.

I can see that you are a ToonLink main with, slight, success in the pm community, but your opinion holds no water compared to my facts. My balance claims are always truthful and 100% accurate. Please, take the advice from someone who obviously has a better understanding of the character, rather than just impulsively saying whatever it is you feel like at the moment.

 

[9bit]

I'm starting to feel Enlightened

 

[Deleted member]

Please, take the advice from someone who obviously has a better understanding of the character, rather than just impulsively saying whatever it is you feel like at the moment.

... What are you implying? That you are more knowledgeable than me on toonlink?

Link is better than toonlink. His matchups are better across the cast, toonlink has troubles too. You make it sound like toonlinks mobility purely makes him 100% better.

 

[KayB]

... What are you implying? That you are more knowledgeable than me on toonlink?

CONGRATS

THATS THE JOKE

 

[Deleted member]

the ENTIRE post seems like a bit too much to be just a joke. You have to make it obv pls.

 

[KayB]

the ENTIRE post seems like a bit too much to be just a joke. You have to make it obv pls.

Previous post

My list is scientifically proven to be the most correct, all of your lists are bad

His post in reply to yours

I can see that you are a ToonLink main with, slight, success in the pm community, but your opinion holds no water compared to my facts. My balance claims are always truthful and 100% accurate. Please, take the advice from someone who obviously has a better understanding of the character, rather than just impulsively saying whatever it is you feel like at the moment.

He's either the extremely pretentious or just joking.

 

[Deleted member]

going indepth
wow what a nerd

 

[TheFadedWarrior]

Just doing God Tier, Top Tier, Pretty Good Tier, and Dumpster Tier. I know I don't have all the characters.

God Tier:

Top Tier:

Pretty Good Tier (basically characters I'm good at that I don't main):

Dumpster Tier:
(Zelda has potential but I hate her aerials)
Poop Pit:
(I still don't get how people like him in Smash Bros.)

 

[KayB]

going indepth
wow what a nerd

Sorry I had to make it obv to you

 

[GP&B]

Like, he could at least try to make it less obvious with each attempt but the targeting + pretentiousness is to easy to spot.
3/10, will probably ho-hum again

 

[Rᴏb]

the ENTIRE post seems like a bit too much to be just a joke. You have to make it obv pls.

It's painfully obvious that he was joking.

I'm curious as to why you think Link is better than TL though. I've usually heard the opposite with the reasoning that TL's speed and mobility pushes him above Link. I myself don't know what to think, because both the Link and TL matchups are hell for G&W.

 

[Deleted member]

Well we've got a few things here
1. Why do you think there are a million links but there are only 2 good toonlinks? (3 if you count out of the country, jolteon)
2. Toonlinks mobility means he has... what? He has a good neutral game, but at the same time so does link. Links neutral game is about gtfoing everyone and everything, so then what about punishes? Yes, toonlinks punishes are hard but link also has good punishes. Things like boomerang (WHICH IS +2 ON SHIELD, AND TOONLINKS PROJECTILES ALL SUCK VS SHIELD) and down throw also lead into insane followups. Sometimes even his own dash attack leads into ITSELF.
3. Links recovery is arguably better, his bomb jumps don't take 10 million years like toonlinks. If link is meteor'd, his up b goes higher aka getting gimped less often. His up b hitbox is also better at intercepting other edge guards (Toonlink has no vertical hitboxes at all, leaving him super vulnerable to things like shine).
4. I already mentioned it slightly, but toonlink actually kind of doesn't really have any shield pressure. His boomerang isn't links, his bombs do nothing to shield (they bounce off of shields and people can even WD OOS after it bounces off to pick them up), all of his aerials are unsafe on shield, but then you look at link whose entire neutral game revolves around throwing **** constantly (unless you're some aggressive link which means you're playing it wrong), he has a projectile that is ONCE AGAIN +2 on shield. His neutral game is even safe ON SHIELD. If you shield boomerang, another one comes towards you. If you dodge boomerang, MORE **** IS THROWN TOWARDS YOU, if boomerang hits, he can even hit you with ANOTHER ONE or go for more insane followups.

Toonlinks broken... or something. I'm just bad at the game so don't trust what I say, trust the link players because their pocket toonlinks are x1000000000 better than mine.

Actually, who even says link is worse than toonlink? I thought at this point everyone thought toonlink was ****

 

[KayB]

Actually, who even says link is worse than toonlink? I thought at this point everyone thought toonlink was ****

That was way back in like 2.6 or early 3.0 when Jolteon and maybe Dazee were like the only known TL players and you were still known as ZachAttax[whatevernumber].

 

[Deleted member]

dazee quit a long af time ago, I think okami was actually considered a good toonlink. Aero got known in early 3.0 I think?

 

[Rᴏb]

I've asked who was better in this thread previously and I only got TL as a reply, so I didn't know whether or not to trust my initial thoughts, which I frankly doubted because both characters **** up mine. Thanks for the explanation though.

 

[KayB]

dazee quit a long af time ago, I think okami was actually considered a good toonlink. Aero got known in early 3.0 I think?

Okami maybe, but Aero got known like a few months or less after Apex 2014.

 

[zman804]

Okami maybe, but Aero got known like a few months or less after Apex 2014.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhjMSUZl6y0 (From Nov 10, 2013)

Aero's been good since 2.6, at least. I'm not exactly sure what constitutes "known" however.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

The whole thing about Fireballs and boomerangs was legit, everything else was just me having fun.

You see, I hate Link. And there are so many fake Link players who just spam boomerangs all day. Even I had a pocket Link for camping. And then one day my pocket link got decimated by a fox, so he was no longer an option. When I needed a new pocket char I went to toon link, and it worked. So ever since then I always tell everyone toon link is better than link.

And the Charizard being top tier is a joke. I played Ikuzen once and joked around by saying he only won because Charizard is best in the game. And the Roy and Toon Link being top tier was because Lunchables destroyed me.

@ GP&B I'm not the reoccurring troll who makes a new account all the time and calls out pros. My post was supposed to be the ones where you look at it, chuckle a bit, then move on. I had no idea someone was gonna respond to it so seriously lol. I was just pointing out how underrated Charizard, Tink, and Roy are. People just outright dismiss them for some reason.

Oh and I believe that once Yoshi gets Parrying and Lightshielding back his shield might be broken. Just throwing it out there.

 

[jtm94]

Aero was the first TL I heard of as being good, then Jolteon, then Lunchables. Inspired me to play Toon Link because he is more fun for me than Link and I just like throwing stuff.

I do have a friend who solely plays Link, and some Marth. He completely thinks Toon Link is worse in every way, but is faster. To each their own I guess.