Tier List Speculation

[Scuba Steve]

That's a pretty random question. DK's <100% is pretty good. It comes out quickly and reaches decently far like Bowser's but instead of retreating back like Bowser does, DK just stays in place for a little while after he reaches out onto the stage. It's good for when you know it will hit, but very punishable on whiff or shield.

 

[9bit]

I thought Dedede was the best AND worst
Who is that person with that picture of the TRUE DEDEDE in PM?
9bit or something? I can't remember.
Broken character is broken.
Good game is good.

Once people start playing Kingvan DooDooDooze, the whole metagame will change!

Spoiler

 

[Soft Serve]

Hopefully they don't butcher mew two too bad. A slight weight reduction for him. A slight weight gain for g&w and A very minor tweak to some of mewtwo's ranged attacks. Ex(forward tilt not even a great move for him goes further than Roy's forward tilt ) . He is not 2.6 sonic bad. Wonder if some other characters will have their weights tweaked, such as samus.

If M2 went below marth weight and got knocked down on shine again, I actually don't know how that would affect the fox/M2 MU.

I see frozen lurking though, I'd like his thoughts on M2 lol. I honestly thing he's pretty much fine, just needs a few tweaks (like lag frames after teleport maybe)

 

[DMG]

Mewtwo has pretty low traction iirc, so even right now it's not that easy to abuse Shine on him. I think besides Luigi and IC's, he slides the most?

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

If M2 went below marth weight and got knocked down on shine again, I actually don't know how that would affect the fox/M2 MU.

I see frozen lurking though, I'd like his thoughts on M2 lol. I honestly thing he's pretty much fine, just needs a few tweaks (like lag frames after teleport maybe)

While i agree about that possibly negatively effecting the fox m.u, i am not opposed to fox having a bad m.u in p.m if it better balances the character as a whole. Major Lag frames after his teleport will neuter his approach. Slight range reductions on some moves when he can teleport and better peach float in isn't. Don't like making extreme changes to a developing meta, but his stalling ability is what everyone generally agrees needs to be addressed.

 

[Master Raven]

But m2 is lighter than Mario
Aren't heavy characters SUPPOSED to be powerful?
See Bowser, DK, Gannon, DDD

Normally yes, but none of those heavyweights have the combination of M2's specific attributes, which, in conjunction with his weight, make him a little too powerful. I'll just quote Metaknight0 since I think he explains it best,

ok this thread is hilarious

but here ya go:
mewtwo's weight + double jump creates an uncomfortable position where mewtwo gets

a combination of resilience to throw combos (most throws can't set up on mewtwo because of how heavy he is),
a better crouch cancel (a buff that is accentuated by a ton of new powerful options out of a crouch cancel like confusion, disable, uptilt),
the option to simply trade hits over and over without really thinking about it and convert a decent trade into a good combo without really worrying about how much damage you took in response,
an unexploitable recovery that can get the ledge, the stage, or well above it in the blink of an eye (a trait not shared by similar high survivability characters with good recoveries like peach, samus, ROB, Snake who can all get hit out of their recoveries and either die or take a ton of additional damage)

with these traits in mind frankly it doesnt matter if mewtwo's a big target, he has the best survivability in the game right now. mewtwo can just CC, tank a hit, get a nice dtilt or confusion or w.e, smash the opponent with whatever combo (yes you can combo floaties who the hell said mewtwo has an inherently harder tiime lol), edgeguard them faster and more fierce than anything puff can do owing to a super fast SUNC that resets his double jump or teleport that puts him right back on the stage.

nerfing his weight gets rid of a lot of these undesireable traits that make fighting against mewtwo a drag and focusing him more of a somewhat frail offensive powerhouse with "difficult" approaches rather than someone who can outlive ganondorf and has the recovery of better than puff with the combo game of falcon with "difficult" approaches.

in contrast nerfing his double jump is kind of a lame idea that nukes a lot of the fun momentum based options he gets on double jump and he'd still have a pretty good recovery and would still be able to bully people on stage easily and still be able to gimp effectively with SUNC resets onto the ledge. also the double jump **** ttakes a dubious amount whereas weight is like lol i held down lol i do 70% damage combo cuz im fat

 

[Zoa]

I main Mewtwo, yet I agree with some of these. I'd like to see TP either get a ledge grab limit to stop invincibility hogging, or make it actually require more effort similar to Melee. TP -> hover is a bit too strong. Maybe remove the ability to instantly do it out of TP, and add a few frames of lag before you can DJ/hover out of it so that it'll require proper spacing when approaching with it. Nair could really go for the no shield damage idea on the M2 board. Combine it with more lag before you can hover/DJ out of TP and it becomes much less safe.

 

[Mera Mera]

No seriously. Every character needs a ledge grab limit.

Maybe make it so you don't get invincibility from the ledge the 5th time you grab it and onwards (until you get on the actual stage or get hit).

 

[MrBigstuff]

So I'm bad at this game and my opinion on tier lists is irrelevant, so I decided to make a purely results based tier list. I used all 77 tournaments from the 3.0 results thread that had characters listed, and only looked at the top 8. I gave 8 points to 1st place, 7 to 2nd, 6 to 3rd, etc, and multiplied this by the number of entries in the tournament. This made sure that large nationals were more weighted than small locals. If there were multiple characters used by a smasher, I split the points evenly among each of them, and if they used the icon, I just gave the points to both Zelda and Sheik. Here's the results.

A Tier: >6000 Points
1. 10,679.26 Points, 67 Top 8 Placements, Most Top 8
Appearances
2. 7708 Points, 23 Top 8 Placements
3. 7639.6 Points, 32 Top 8 Placements
4. 7099.33 Points, 17 Top 8 Placements
5. /6558.14 Points, 20 Top 8 Placements for Lucas, but 59 for Marth, second only to Fox.
7. 6099.7 Points, 44 Top 8 Placements

B Tier: 6000>x>3000
8. 5821.21 Points, 39 Top 8 Placements
9. 5754.76 Points, 36 Top 8 Placements
10. 5669 Points, 30 Top 8 Placements
11. 4878.94 Points, 35 Top 8 Placements
12. 4442.83 Points, 39 Top 8 Placements
13. 4435.93 Points, 38 Top 8 Placements
14. 3900 Points, 21 Top 8 Placements
15. 3729.77 Points, 30 Top 8 Placements
16. 3683.83 Points, 26 Top 8 Placements
17. 3445.67 Points, 22 Top 8 Placements
18. 3371.57 Points, 22 Top 8 Placements
19. 3145.1 Points, 15 Top 8 Placements
20. 3107.5 Points, 22 Top 8 Placements

C Tier: 3000>x>1000
21. 2958.5 Points, 13 Top 8 Placements
22. 2666.93 Points, 16 Top 8 Placements
23. 2550.5 Points, 18 Top 8 Placements
24. 2484.66 Points, 25 Top 8 Placements
25. 2268.56 Points, 17 Top 8 Placements
26. 2034 Points, 16 Top 8 Placements
27. 1782.83 Points, 19 Top 8 Placements
28. 1630.2 Points, 12 Top 8 Placements
29. 1482.5 Points, 8 Top 8 Placements
30. 1312.33 Points, 15 Top 8 Placements
31. 1261.5 Points, 10 Top 8 Placements
32. 1235 Points, 11 Top 8 Placements
33. 1146.8 Points, 8 Top 8 Placements
34. 1004.5 Points, 5 Top 8 Placements

D Tier: <1000
35. 888.56 Points, 9 Top 8 Placements
36. 821.5 Points, 9 Top 8 Placements
37. 737.9 Points, 9 Top 8 Placements
38. 669.5 Points, 5 Top 8 Placements
39. 472 Points, 3 Top 8 Placements
40. 437 Points, 5 Top 8 Placements
41 119 Points, 1! Top 8 Placements

So yeah, not the greatest list, but it was really interesting to put together and see how things turned out. Personally, there were way more Charizards than I expected, and TL did surprisingly well, but he was often comained with either Marth or Link, so that might have helped carry him. Also, PMBR pls fix ICs.

 

[B.W.]

Mewtwo has pretty low traction iirc, so even right now it's not that easy to abuse Shine on him. I think besides Luigi and IC's, he slides the most?

Traction I think goes
Luigi
Squirtle
ICs
then maybe Mewtwo? Also maybe Lucas?

 

[DMG]

Didn't even consider Squirtle (did anyone play Squirtle at SKTAR/place decent with him?!?!?). That traction list sound very accurate

 

[B.W.]

Nooo idea. Squirtle has some potential that's being held back due to the fact that he's kind of weird to play.

He's got good things about him, but the way he has to move is strange and kind of hard to get used to.

 

[jtm94]

Squirtle has some of THE BEST character specific tech. His upsmash alone should make him a solid character.

I really enjoy playing as him, but his bad tech is significantly hampering him. I mean his strengths do warrant it since every aggressive character has bad techs, Game and Watch would be top tier if his tech wasn't as bad as it is.

I REALLY like that tier list though, honestly. Everything until B-Tier is pretty spot on, but that is where under representation starts taking over and characters become better than those around them.

 

[JOE!]

Dont the spacies have decent techs?

Also, I agree that that tier list actually looks very legit until the last tier.

 

[TreK]

It isn't a "most potent characters list", but more of a "most threatening characters list"
As in, if your character loses to the A tier of this list, you're probably screwed.

#IvysaurThugLife

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Squirtle has some of THE BEST character specific tech. His upsmash alone should make him a solid character.

I really enjoy playing as him, but his bad tech is significantly hampering him. I mean his strengths do warrant it since every aggressive character has bad techs, Game and Watch would be top tier if his tech wasn't as bad as it is.

Trust me, there are things that are a lot more important for general success than how good a character's tech rolls are.

 

[DMG]

Poor Falcon tho

 

[9bit]

Meta Knight's tech rolls are garbage tho

Buff MK pls

So bottom tier

pls buff

 

[Terotrous]

So I'm bad at this game and my opinion on tier lists is irrelevant, so I decided to make a purely results based tier list. I used all 77 tournaments from the 3.0 results thread that had characters listed, and only looked at the top 8.

It's interesting that some parts of this line up very closely with what I'd expect, while others are very different, here's the parts I find strange or interesting:

By far the most shocking thing is Falcon #12. Who are the godly Falcon players who caused this? We know that Roy's position is going to be mostly Sethlon, but that Falcon really shocks me.

I'm also really surprised by Snake. I've seen a few really good Snake players, but they seem to be rare in tournaments. You wouldn't think he'd have enough players to put in those results.

It's interesting to note that Falco is much lower than Fox. I've been saying for a while that I don't think he's nearly as good as Fox in this game. Wolf is also surprisingly low, with numerous strong Wolf players now I would have expected his position to be higher.

I'm also surprised by Ivy's terrible tier position as I think Ivy is quite high. Must just not be enough Ivy players out there, the fact that she was considered terrible in Brawl probably didn't help.

 

[DMG]

Falcon also surprised me, but he does decent in most regions. His results seem underwhelming before you dig deeper. A big part of it is that his results aren't on the forefront of many people's minds, since most people want to keep up with newer Brawl characters, newer/notable PM players, etc. Enough decent people from Melee are still playing him in PM, although I don't understand how he came up better than someone like Wolf. I don't want to assume wonky weighting, but at first glance he's way ahead of characters who are fundamentally better than him.

 

[FlamingForce]

What is the general consensus on MK?? I mean **** man, that dthrow tech chasing.

Is it really that crazily good or am I just missing something? He seems extremely hard to beat atm.

 

[9bit]

It's really that crazily good

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Your missing how bad his rolls are and that his transcendent sword keeps him from clanking out your attacks so he can't trade or get rid of projectile spam. Plus your missing his light weight but fast fall properties that allow you to still combo him cause he gets the worst of both. The throw tech chase is annoying, if he guesses right, which isn't really a guess if he pays close attention, but it is hard to tone it down without butchering it.

 

[Master Raven]

MK is fine.

 

[FlamingForce]

Your missing how bad his rolls are and that his transcendent sword keeps him from clanking out your attacks so he can't trade or get rid of projectile spam. Plus your missing his light weight but fast fall properties that allow you to still combo him cause he gets the worst of both. The throw tech chase is annoying, if he guesses right, which isn't really a guess if he pays close attention, but it is hard to tone it down without butchering it.

I was playing on netplay which means he gets about 30~50ms less time to follow a techchase and he was still doing it without much trouble.

 

[Master Raven]

It's a tech chase, so just mix up your getup options.

 

[MrBigstuff]

Falcon also surprised me, but he does decent in most regions. His results seem underwhelming before you dig deeper. A big part of it is that his results aren't on the forefront of many people's minds, since most people want to keep up with newer Brawl characters, newer/notable PM players, etc. Enough decent people from Melee are still playing him in PM, although I don't understand how he came up better than someone like Wolf. I don't want to assume wonky weighting, but at first glance he's way ahead of characters who are fundamentally better than him.

Yeah, there were a lot more decent placing Falcons at ~30 man tournaments than I was expecting. As for Wolf, it was probably the tournaments that were reported. There was only 1 S@X reported, which if more were listed Chillin would have boosted Wolf's numbers. There was also like a 95 man Midwest tourney that Rat (iirc) did well in, but they didn't list characters in the results thread so I couldn't count it.

 

[FlamingForce]

It's a tech chase, so just mix up your getup options.

I was literally just rolling my control stick around at a certain point, it couldnt have been more random, his timing got tighter but overall he still seemed capable of doing it on reaction.

 

[Jolteon]

You can cover techs on reaction with dash grab.

 

[Life]

Don't forget that not teching is also an option. Can't grab you if you're lying on the ground, right?.... right?....

 

[GP&B]

Ike:MK is a knightmare.

 

[Jolteon]

Don't forget that not teching is also an option. Can't grab you if you're lying on the ground, right?.... right?....

Can reset with ftilt1 or pop you up with dtilt on reaction, also.

 

[Strong Badam]

Traction I think goes
Luigi
Squirtle
ICs
then maybe Mewtwo? Also maybe Lucas?

Traction isn't the only factor that determines WD length if that's what you're comparing. Maximum Walk Speed also contributes.

 

[JOE!]

Ike:MK is a knightmare.

Meta Ike Climbers

30XX

 

[DMG]

It wasn't for WD length, but rather how far M2 would slide from Fox Shine. Dunno how closely that list follows the WD list but you'd assume it would be pretty close.

 

[ThreeSided]

Melee characters are just going to do better period because of their advantage of advanced metagame development. Because of that, I don't have trouble believing falcon's placement on that list. It's probably made worse by how much everyone sleeps on falcon. He's not great, but if you don't know how to deal his pressure, mixups or combos then you're pretty much screwed. We're in a community where a lot of the good players know how to deal with his pressure and DI his combos, so they've realized how mediocre he is once you know those things. Then they go around talking about how meh falcon is, and the less experienced players take their word for it and then get bodied for not knowing the matchup.

As for M2 on that list, I think it's actually good evidence for why M2 isn't so ridiculous. Fox is a very popular character among the melee players, who make up a large portion of the really good PM players. As a result, a character who has a great matchup against them is naturally going to have an inflated placement. Taking that into account, M2 can be argued to be better represented as lower than that placement in the actual metagame. Take into account how strange he plays, and it predicts a downward trend for his placement as people learn how to deal with him as well.

 

[DMG]

There's also an upward trend for potential, based on currently underutilized floating tactics + footstools. It cuts both ways for M2

 

[ThreeSided]

There's also an upward trend for potential, based on currently underutilized floating tactics + footstools. It cuts both ways for M2

I can concede to that. But the rest of my argument still holds!

 

[DMG]

It's true that Mewtwo being a premier character vs Fox helps him greatly and could contribute to that inflation, but his MU spread vs other characters (for his MU's that we have a decent grasp on already, which certainly is not close to 90% of the cast imo) is nothing to sneeze at either. SKTAR wasn't Emu playing 7 Fox mains back to back, pretty decent diversity involved for characters and players he beat (even if questions arise for whether his opponents could have known more/played better).

 

[FlamingForce]

Can reset with ftilt1 or pop you up with dtilt on reaction, also.

So wat do?