PandaPanda Senketsu
Smash Journeyman
Charizard's Nair is better than Ganondorf's whole moveset. If charizard's nair was a stand alone character it would be like A tier.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
XerotheInfinite
Smash Rookie
For me, it's kinda hard to decide who to put some of the characters in the bottom, but there are also some characters that have been decided to be put the bottom for a reason, and some for...well...some other reason!
The main reason Charizard is better in Neutral is probably due to how fast he can dash/run (grab range or attack range being a bit more minor of a reason). The threat of cancelling a dash/run into a grab, tilt, pivot attack, etc is at the very least semi respectable in speed and range. Ganon has to encroach on territory much slower, and without as much range. Because of this, Charizard could be allowed to do less damage or have other flaws that Ganon doesn't have, and still come out ahead as the better character. Zard is a pretty decent character however, so there's not much Ganon should claim to be superior in over him.
There are not enough facets that appear to be Ganon > Charizard. Most of them lean slightly for Charizard, or in a few areas they appear similar. Ganon doesn't have many completely unique AND/OR completely amazing tools that Zard can't match: there's only 3 areas I'd consider Ganon better in and the rest are basically Charizard being a better character in total.
There are not enough facets that appear to be Ganon > Charizard. Most of them lean slightly for Charizard, or in a few areas they appear similar. Ganon doesn't have many completely unique AND/OR completely amazing tools that Zard can't match: there's only 3 areas I'd consider Ganon better in and the rest are basically Charizard being a better character in total.
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Oracle
Smash Master
U don't see ppl rar nair? Thats literally all i do besides stomp. Also ur a dumbo zard is good
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Zard is amazing 10/10 mid tier
BluntedMask
Smash Apprentice
Zard is the best character in the game.
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
Srry
JOE!
Smash Hero
High mid, unlike some Robots who are Middle of Mid tier...
uh
Charizard is slightly heavier than Ganon
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Well ganon has like
Uhh
Ya'know
Uhh
Ya'know
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steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
when i think mid tier i think charizard and i dont care if they buff the **** outta him i am still considering him mid tier
Brawl did that to me, hah. No matter how the game changed, Charizard was and always will be mid tier in my heart.
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1FD
Smash Ace
So we have 10ish high/top and everyone else mid except ganon/jiggs but some are higher/lower in mid than others.
Good game is good, tierlist boards
Good game is good, tierlist boards
Empyrean
Smash Champion
I thought Dedede was generally agreed to be the worst.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
A while ago by a lot of misinformed people
Dedede has too much going for him to be worse than Ganondorf. He's low-mid at worst, and middle of mid at best. A nice rounded characters with weaknesses and strengths, each sharp and pronounced.
1FD
Smash Ace
I thought Dedede was the best AND worst
Who is that person with that picture of the TRUE DEDEDE in PM?
9bit or something? I can't remember.
Broken character is broken.
Good game is good.
Who is that person with that picture of the TRUE DEDEDE in PM?
9bit or something? I can't remember.
Broken character is broken.
Good game is good.
ivan ooze tier, y'all
he's just really lopsided, so it's difficult to solely main him but by no means is DDD really bad at all
also waddle dashing, while situational is incredibly hilarious to watch
he's just really lopsided, so it's difficult to solely main him but by no means is DDD really bad at all
also waddle dashing, while situational is incredibly hilarious to watch
Empyrean
Smash Champion
Waddle dashing is indeed god tier.
that one frame during the waddle dash where DDD's body distorts all over the entire screen is too OP
Empyrean
Smash Champion
-15 respect points for PMBR if that happens. Pls
steelguttey
mei is bei
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,674
please take away from d3 he needs that
(this is sarcasm dont do that please he sux)
(this is sarcasm dont do that please he sux)
Oracle
Smash Master
How can d3 be bad he has jet hammer and by extension the snaaaccckkkkiiiissshhh speeeeecccccciiiiiaaaaalll yeeeeeeessssss
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Haven't been on here in forever so I just saw this.
Up-b gives M2 a movement option where you essentially have to guess when/where he is going to use it. Don't think he's going to teleport in and he does? Eat a free nair/fair. Try to punish a teleport you think he's going to use and he doesn't? Stage position/bair/teleport after the "punishment"/Shadow Ball.
Did I mention you can attack out of it, and if you teleport on the ground you can still jump/float
Bair/uair are hugely disjointed, and bair strings into itself forever, especially when coupled with M2's float.
A reflector that also works as a grab up close, that combos into fair/bair.
One of the best recoveries in a game, with an up-b where you have to guess where he's going to go.
Some of the strongest throws in the game.
Umm... That's a pretty good start.
What exactly is bad about M2? He's big? He's floaty? Dying early isn't a weakness if your strengths heavily out-weigh them. Fox/Falco die pretty early, they're still pretty good in Melee.
D
Deleted member
Guest
mewtwo's weaknesses before included losing horribly to projectile spam, an over-reliance on WD back, teleport spacing being pretty predictable, dying early, and a mediocre platform game. of course, any of these variables are prone to given mewtwo's new attributes.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
M2 can teleport through projectiles/ping with projectiles with his tilts, and can reflect projectiles. I could see him having trouble against something like Samus on PS2, but nobody can really deal with that very well.
No comment on the WDing thing, I don't really understand how M2 has that attribute.
Teleport spacing would be more predictable if he couldn't slightly change the angle and turn around/attack out of it.
M2 doesn't die early horizontally, only vertically. I have seen M2s consistently live above 120-130. if that's early in this game, I don't know what most players are doing wrong.
How does he have a mediocre platform game? If the opponent in on a platform you have float nair, which you can retreat if it's unsafe. If you're stuck on a platform, you can just teleport somewhere else and pretty much get away for free.
I guess I'm just bad, because I don't see any of this stuff as weaknesses M2 has...
No comment on the WDing thing, I don't really understand how M2 has that attribute.
Teleport spacing would be more predictable if he couldn't slightly change the angle and turn around/attack out of it.
M2 doesn't die early horizontally, only vertically. I have seen M2s consistently live above 120-130. if that's early in this game, I don't know what most players are doing wrong.
How does he have a mediocre platform game? If the opponent in on a platform you have float nair, which you can retreat if it's unsafe. If you're stuck on a platform, you can just teleport somewhere else and pretty much get away for free.
I guess I'm just bad, because I don't see any of this stuff as weaknesses M2 has...
Scuba Steve
Smash Ace
Umbreon, I'd just take a quick glance at the Wiki to give you an idea of what they gave to Mewtwo: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Mewtwo_(PM)
What it can't properly illustrate, are how significant some of the details are. Being able to attack + float from Teleports is wtfbbq good, improvements to tail attacks + ability to float means those tail attack buffs are further multiplied in usefulness, etc.
Most M2 weakness from before have been marginalized.
1. Vs. projectile spam he has a better reflector, better tail attacks for stuff he can clank with, floating above/around projectiles, teleporting at the user once the projectile is used and having meaningful options after the tele, etc
2. Any old reliance on WD back or Dtilt is usually not the case anymore. For spacings where he would like to consider those options to begin with, he has the additional option to float Aerials or combine teleports + floating/attacking.
3. His teleport spacing is still fairly predictable, but you are much less limited since Teleport lets you attack and float. It's the difference between the Melee version of G^W Upb, and the PM or Brawl version. Being able to attack, or further reposition after the teleport, opens up the door to flexibility that Melee M2 never could have obtained. Teleporting higher than you need to, and figuring out either a floating direction to help save you or an aerial that might help get back down, forces the opponent to cover more options/specific spacings from Tele.
4. They buffed his weight, and his recovery is even safer. His weight is in the 90's now, I'm pretty sure he's heavier than Marth now.
5. His platform game is something pretty sweet. Floating Uair basically ruins characters LOL, and people that shield will not enjoy 100% safe Nairs that come from below or weave around them. You could argue that some of his platform trapping options are weak to CC, and may give the opponent a chance to break out semi early, but you can usually vary your floated "attack" and instead waveland from the float to go for a grab, or use the massive Uair hitbox to hit them before they can tech, or just go for Nair.
Mewtwo is basically a prime candidate for getting some of his goodies taken away. The problem was that for every cool thing he got tacked on, nobody effectively tested how well the traits compliment each other. This was no easy task, and I don't put much hard blame on them for missing out on why the combination of his traits goes to a dark place. That's a ton of testing and speculation over how well he would do in Neutral. Mewtwo got buffed attacks, plus buffed mobility. Penalty flags should have been thrown up everywhere as if Terrell Owens just started a Touchdown Celebration.
What it can't properly illustrate, are how significant some of the details are. Being able to attack + float from Teleports is wtfbbq good, improvements to tail attacks + ability to float means those tail attack buffs are further multiplied in usefulness, etc.
Most M2 weakness from before have been marginalized.
1. Vs. projectile spam he has a better reflector, better tail attacks for stuff he can clank with, floating above/around projectiles, teleporting at the user once the projectile is used and having meaningful options after the tele, etc
2. Any old reliance on WD back or Dtilt is usually not the case anymore. For spacings where he would like to consider those options to begin with, he has the additional option to float Aerials or combine teleports + floating/attacking.
3. His teleport spacing is still fairly predictable, but you are much less limited since Teleport lets you attack and float. It's the difference between the Melee version of G^W Upb, and the PM or Brawl version. Being able to attack, or further reposition after the teleport, opens up the door to flexibility that Melee M2 never could have obtained. Teleporting higher than you need to, and figuring out either a floating direction to help save you or an aerial that might help get back down, forces the opponent to cover more options/specific spacings from Tele.
4. They buffed his weight, and his recovery is even safer. His weight is in the 90's now, I'm pretty sure he's heavier than Marth now.
5. His platform game is something pretty sweet. Floating Uair basically ruins characters LOL, and people that shield will not enjoy 100% safe Nairs that come from below or weave around them. You could argue that some of his platform trapping options are weak to CC, and may give the opponent a chance to break out semi early, but you can usually vary your floated "attack" and instead waveland from the float to go for a grab, or use the massive Uair hitbox to hit them before they can tech, or just go for Nair.
Mewtwo is basically a prime candidate for getting some of his goodies taken away. The problem was that for every cool thing he got tacked on, nobody effectively tested how well the traits compliment each other. This was no easy task, and I don't put much hard blame on them for missing out on why the combination of his traits goes to a dark place. That's a ton of testing and speculation over how well he would do in Neutral. Mewtwo got buffed attacks, plus buffed mobility. Penalty flags should have been thrown up everywhere as if Terrell Owens just started a Touchdown Celebration.
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DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
M2 also has one of the easiest powershields in the game so being consistent against projectile spam shouldn't be too hard
Master Raven
Smash Master
M2 is absurdly heavy for how powerful he is.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
But m2 is lighter than Mario
Aren't heavy characters SUPPOSED to be powerful?
See Bowser, DK, Gannon, DDD
Aren't heavy characters SUPPOSED to be powerful?
See Bowser, DK, Gannon, DDD
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Searing_Sorrow
Smash Journeyman
Hopefully they don't butcher mew two too bad. A slight weight reduction for him. A slight weight gain for g&w and A very minor tweak to some of mewtwo's ranged attacks. Ex(forward tilt not even a great move for him goes further than Roy's forward tilt ) . He is not 2.6 sonic bad. Wonder if some other characters will have their weights tweaked, such as samus.
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Chevy
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2014
- Messages
- 736
Make Samus heavier please. I hate dieing at 240%.
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JOE!
Smash Hero
Here's a random question that I don't know where else to ask:
Who has the best/worst get up attacks? From prone or edge.
Bowser obv has that amazing edge attack, but does anyone else?
Who has the best/worst get up attacks? From prone or edge.
Bowser obv has that amazing edge attack, but does anyone else?
Bryonato
Green Hat
Ness' ledge attack is awful. Ike's is pretty meh too range wise.
Fox/Falco/Wolf all godlike.
Fox/Falco/Wolf all godlike.