Tier List Speculation

[NWRL]

Can we talk about Yoshis wonky ass interactions with momentum please

 

[gnosis]

What's up with Yoshi's egg roll? Its priority seems to change pretty chaotically. Like sometimes fireballs beat it and other times they clink and Yoshi exits with next to no lag. What's its secret?

 

[CORY]

clanking is damage dependent. if the two moves are grounded (or is a ground move vs. projectile), they will clank if they are within 9% damage of each other (or some number close to 9%).

so, if it's a fresh fireball vs fresh egg (or staled vs staled), they'll likely clank. fresh fireball vs. stale egg, the egg will likely be beaten.

 

[gnosis]

Oooh, yoshi's egg roll does way more damage after its been rolling for a little. Starts flashing yellow. Didn't notice that in the 2-3 yoshi matches I played.

edit: And aerials can definitely clank with projectiles but I gotcha. dunno if it follows the same 9% rule though.

 

[Ripple]

speaking of clanking

http://www.twitch.tv/ripple884/c/4279401

 

[CORY]

they shouldn't be able to. aerials vs projectiles should be entirely based on "can i hit this projectile?" and "will my aerial's hitbox connect with the projectile before the projectile can hit my hurtbox?".

if it's different, can someone with knowledge of how it's programmed/etc... confirm?

 

[MonkUnit]

The way that Yoshi's eggs are programmed in Brawl makes them weird so that they beat out everything even if you hit the egg with an attack that deals more than 9% than the egg does. So, only solution to fighting the eggs are to shield/PS them or just avoid them lol

 

[gnosis]

Ohhh you mean clank very specifically, where both attacks sorta bounce off. I just meant aerials can delete projectiles/swipe them away/etc. You're right though.

 

[Chevy]

clanking is damage dependent. if the two moves are grounded (or is a ground move vs. projectile), they will clank if they are within 9% damage of each other (or some number close to 9%).

so, if it's a fresh fireball vs fresh egg (or staled vs staled), they'll likely clank. fresh fireball vs. stale egg, the egg will likely be beaten.

It is literally impossible for Mario's fireball to out-prioritize anything, it does 8%(silly) fresh, and needs to do 9% more than the move to beat it.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

So, what are you saying?

 

[gnosis]

I think fireballs beat Yoshi's egg roll when he's in the air and clank when it's on the ground. Or the actual hitbox moves weirdly and its timing dependent.

I don't know man.

 

[Player -0]

Don't fireballs clank with everything unless it beats it? Never had this clear.

 

[1FD]

I think fireballs beat Yoshi's egg roll when he's in the air and clank when it's on the ground. Or the actual hitbox moves weirdly and its timing dependent.

I don't know man.

Sounds just like how Luigi's down b and basically all his moves go through Marth forward smashes and samus missiles and stuff with 0 lag after
His down b gets hit in the air but cancels to an actionless sliding thing on the ground
That's cool about Yoshi having projectile Eggs that beat all things almost
Yoshi so cool

 

[didds]

I think fireballs beat Yoshi's egg roll when he's in the air and clank when it's on the ground. Or the actual hitbox moves weirdly and its timing dependent.

I don't know man.

Yoshi's egg roll loses to everything in the air since it has no hit box, although there is a hitbox upon exiting the egg even while in the air.

On the ground his egg roll's damage and knockback are both momentum based iirc, so more speed equals more punch.

Egg roll is actually super amazing.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

So how about that Zero just goin around and winning tournaments with his Pit? I know people always say the player doesnt matter and I agree it has an influence obviously. But you can see pretty easy zero to death combos, Pit is lookin real good,, and annoying.

 

[mimgrim]

The thing with Zero is how he got, or seemed to anyway, so much better in such a quick time frame after switching to Pit. I can only think of 2 reasons for this;

Pit is the perfect fit for Zero, much better then Fox was for him

Or

The character is carrying him, along with him still being a very good player

Perhaps a combination of both?

Whichever way, it's scary how better he got so quickly after switching to Pit.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Pit was given a ton of Melee tools that make him one of the best characters in the game, IMO. Not many frills; just very strong options all around.

 

[Paradoxium]

Pit was given a ton of Melee tools that make him one of the best characters in the game, IMO. Not many frills; just very strong options all around.

So Mister Reflex, would you be considered a "God" in the pm world?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Probably not. A lot of people don't believe in my power, but that might be because I don't get to go to events as much as I'd like.

I'll hopefully get more chances to attend events in the future, and whether or not I'm worth the hype should be seen. For all it's worth, I'm going to CEO. :>

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Pit's neutral game is just not good enough for him to be OP. But really smart players like Armada and Zero just win neutral with reads and get the free punishes then. Pit is nothing without reads in neutral game and Zero has a combination of being good enough at tech skill and not needing to focus on it during match and great reads so this wins it for him. Also Pit needs a lot of precision in his combos, more than other characters. I don't think this is a reason for him to be worse but a reason to be harder to play.
If you lose to Pit much you probably get read like a book in neutral game. The way to fight Pit is to paly safe in neutral and exploit his neutral game weaknesses by quick micro-retreats and offenses at the right time. He has a jumpsquat of 5 frames, a little grab range, his arrows don't protect him that much once you are close. The first hit you get against Pit is the reason for the complete combo...

 

[Paradoxium]

Probably not. A lot of people don't believe in my power, but that might be because I don't get to go to events as much as I'd like.

I'll hopefully get more chances to attend events in the future, and whether or not I'm worth the hype should be seen. For all it's worth, I'm going to CEO. :>

I always considered you like at least top 8. I have no doubts about it, you have what it takes to be god tier.

 

[CORY]

if nothing else, reflex for top tier in "watching the player play". nothing beats reflex getting hype in his own matches, standing up while playing, then getting more hype in his own matches, and throwing his hands in the air, like he just don't care, while still playing.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Pit's neutral game is just not good enough for him to be OP. But really smart players like Armada and Zero just win neutral with reads and get the free punishes then. Pit is nothing without reads in neutral game and Zero has a combination of being good enough at tech skill and not needing to focus on it during match and great reads so this wins it for him. Also Pit needs a lot of precision in his combos, more than other characters. I don't think this is a reason for him to be worse but a reason to be harder to play.
If you lose to Pit much you probably get read like a book in neutral game. The way to fight Pit is to paly safe in neutral and exploit his neutral game weaknesses by quick micro-retreats and offenses at the right time. He has a jumpsquat of 5 frames, a little grab range, his arrows don't protect him that much once you are close. The first hit you get against Pit is the reason for the complete combo...

How is Pit's neutral anything less than stellar when he has a great DD, a glide that functions as an airdash that can be initiated from the ground out of a DD, arrows and a reflector for encouraging almost everyone to approach him, and multiple aerial jumps and moderately disjointed aerials? His grab may not have great reach, that never stopped falcon from landing grabs, and pit has more going for him than falcon.
Only thing I really see that would hold pit back is the lack of lingering aerials.

 

[1FD]

^On top of that.

So how about that Zero just goin around and winning tournaments with his Pit? I know people always say the player doesnt matter and I agree it has an influence obviously. But you can see pretty easy zero to death combos, Pit is lookin real good,, and annoying.

How can you not see ALL of these easy zero to death combos on the first day of 2.1?

Not much has changed for this Pit guy and he still has loads of stuff to work out.

 

[Ace55]

I don't agree on the FireFox nerf since all characters in PM have disgusting recoveries. The weaker up air, and the weaker up smash though, I agree with 100%

PAL Upair is the same. He's lighter, all smashes are slighly nerfed, obviously shorter Firefox but Uair and upthrow are the same.

 

[Ripple]

f-smash was not nerfed

 

[Ali Baba 177]

^On top of that.

How can you not see ALL of these easy zero to death combos on the first day of 2.1?

Not much has changed for this Pit guy and he still has loads of stuff to work out.

Are you talking about the PM version 2.1? I still played brawl at the time, I didnt play PM til like a month before 3.0,,

 

[Chesstiger2612]

How is Pit's neutral anything less than stellar when he has a great DD, a glide that functions as an airdash that can be initiated from the ground out of a DD, arrows and a reflector for encouraging almost everyone to approach him, and multiple aerial jumps and moderately disjointed aerials? His grab may not have great reach, that never stopped falcon from landing grabs, and pit has more going for him than falcon.
Only thing I really see that would hold pit back is the lack of lingering aerials.

His dashdance is good indeed but I don't agree with the other features you mention. Pit's arrows are really more of a combo tool which make them kind of unique because most projectiles are thought for neutral game. Clearly if you camp against Pit he will arrow you but the arrow isn't that great in neutral otherwise, its startup really makes the arrow worse if the opponent isn't in hitstun. Also if you don't get the hit (mainly a problem against small or high mobility characters) the cooldown is really long. Pit will still use arrow in neutral and it is not bad but it is a commital choice. Multiple air jumps won't help your neutral that much if your aerials are bad on shield/punishable. An exception is if you have something like MK's dair which can punish for example dropping shield etc. from above but I don't see glide punishing WD OoS after one or two jumps nearly as well. I think Reflector and Glide in neutral shouldn't help him too much, there are reasonsn why you barely see players like Zero/Armada use it.
The example with Falcon is invalid because Falcon clearly has the better tools getting in that grab range, his impressive dash speed and sh/fj horizontal air movement. He can only use those to his advantage so well because he has his nair covering the space in front of him to not just get hit away.
Lastly, Pit doesn't have a reliable option scheme for that close combat which is still out of grab range. Jump -> fair is both a bit slow and punishable, DD with searching for a grab is of course really good but if it is your only reliable option it will be predicted and that doesn't make a good set of options you can choose from. Pit has more options which are also punishable/commitive like down/f-tilt or sh/fj dair, but all of them have in common that they need at least read in a even mindgame to win the neutral game. Compare this to Fox, Falco, Sheik or Diddy (imo the best neutral game characters). Their neutral game mostly needs a read in a favourable mindgame, so maybe every (good) option they pick beats 2/3 of the opponent's reasonable options. Pit clearly doesn't have enough variety of tools to get in such a good position.

There is much Pit salt going on in these boards and while Pit has one of the best punish games, but his neutral game isn't what makes him high tier.

 

[NWRL]

The punish matters when you can land it. Spacies have the means to prevent that very well, through their offense and mobility. It's been brought up a couple times how they don't even have garbage tech-rolls and the like, unlike say Falcon whom you just brought up.

Which doesn't make sense, you'd think that it'd be the other way around for tech rolls.

 

[Apollo Ali]

His dashdance is good indeed but I don't agree with the other features you mention. Pit's arrows are really more of a combo tool which make them kind of unique because most projectiles are thought for neutral game. Clearly if you camp against Pit he will arrow you but the arrow isn't that great in neutral otherwise, its startup really makes the arrow worse if the opponent isn't in hitstun. Also if you don't get the hit (mainly a problem against small or high mobility characters) the cooldown is really long. Pit will still use arrow in neutral and it is not bad but it is a commital choice. Multiple air jumps won't help your neutral that much if your aerials are bad on shield/punishable. An exception is if you have something like MK's dair which can punish for example dropping shield etc. from above but I don't see glide punishing WD OoS after one or two jumps nearly as well. I think Reflector and Glide in neutral shouldn't help him too much, there are reasonsn why you barely see players like Zero/Armada use it.
The example with Falcon is invalid because Falcon clearly has the better tools getting in that grab range, his impressive dash speed and sh/fj horizontal air movement. He can only use those to his advantage so well because he has his nair covering the space in front of him to not just get hit away.
Lastly, Pit doesn't have a reliable option scheme for that close combat which is still out of grab range. Jump -> fair is both a bit slow and punishable, DD with searching for a grab is of course really good but if it is your only reliable option it will be predicted and that doesn't make a good set of options you can choose from. Pit has more options which are also punishable/commitive like down/f-tilt or sh/fj dair, but all of them have in common that they need at least read in a even mindgame to win the neutral game. Compare this to Fox, Falco, Sheik or Diddy (imo the best neutral game characters). Their neutral game mostly needs a read in a favourable mindgame, so maybe every (good) option they pick beats 2/3 of the opponent's reasonable options. Pit clearly doesn't have enough variety of tools to get in such a good position.

There is much Pit salt going on in these boards and while Pit has one of the best punish games, but his neutral game isn't what makes him high tier.

This and your previous post almost reads like a parody of Smashboards-style theorycrafting, lol.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

You think so? It is meant pretty serious though. Just because it is a long post with theory it doesn't mean it isn't right. Also I have listed arguments in contrast to some posters being like "this is like that.". I could try giving more concrete examples though or keeping posts shorter so you have a point here.

 

[Strong Badam]

Probably not. A lot of people don't believe in my power, but that might be because I don't get to go to events as much as I'd like.

I'll hopefully get more chances to attend events in the future, and whether or not I'm worth the hype should be seen. For all it's worth, I'm going to CEO. :>

TEAM ROCKET!!!

 

[Oro?!]

Team Rocket woulda blasted off again without 2.6 Ivy! PJSalt

 

[steelguttey]

can we all agree the the ct tier list is absolute **** and should be taken down due to new players rejecting lower characters because of that tier list

like

tink and olimar as the worst 2 characters

really

 

[Bryonato]

i'm all for that

 

[TheReflexWonder]

can we all agree the the ct tier list is absolute **** and should be taken down due to new players rejecting lower characters because of that tier list

like

tink and olimar as the worst 2 characters

really

I love this post because I can't help but read it in Super Show Toad's voice.

 

[Strong Badam]

Team Rocket woulda blasted off again without 2.6 Ivy! PJSalt

fite us at CEO/LTC2

 

[NickRiddle]

Probably not. A lot of people don't believe in my power, but that might be because I don't get to go to events as much as I'd like.

I'll hopefully get more chances to attend events in the future, and whether or not I'm worth the hype should be seen. For all it's worth, I'm going to CEO. :>

Let's play at CEO~

 

[Ripple]

fite us at CEO/LTC2

you won't stand a chance against us

how could you possibly stand a chance against Team Triple Ds....and a penguin

 

[woundedust]

Honestly all pit needed was melee's engine. Hit stun gave that man everything he needed.