Tier List Speculation

[Terotrous]

btw just because olimar is a sleeper doesnt mean they dont need to buff his ****ing tether jesus christ that **** makes me so salty when i miss it when i should obviously ****ing hit it

I would just like him to get one more pikmin. Gives him a better chance to get a diverse set of colours and also makes UpB more useful, both as an attack and as a tether.

I don't believe 5 pikmin is enough to make him OP in any way. Honestly a lot of why he was so good in Brawl was Brawl's mechanics, the mere existence of combos means he gets hit way harder when people get in on him now.

In the unlikely event that this makes Side B slightly too good, just give it a couple more recovery frames or something.

 

[B.W.]

yea olimar is sleeper low a tier/high b tier rn. his grab game is insane and the percecents where you can kill with uncharged flowered purple usmash is ****ing insane. if jiggs misses a rest on you for example you can get a fully charged usmash and kill at 26%. someone on reddit posted a whole chart. brb gonna go find it

EDIT: dank

EDIT2: btw just because olimar is a sleeper doesnt mean they dont need to buff his ****ing tether jesus christ that **** makes me so salty when i miss it when i should obviously ****ing hit it

I'll say his recovery is fine forever. Cause it is. You're just not close enough if the Pikmin aren't grabbing the ledge. I know it looks like they should but that's not where their grabbing point is.

Olimar probably has the best mandatory tether recovery in the game though.

Also Olimar doesn't need more Pikmin. 4 is a good limit.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Mario for second? No. Mario for top 5? Yea, as #5. He still has a hard time vs his melee buddies and loses to some of them, especially Marth and then add in some of the new threats as well; I don't see mario as number 2 at all.

 

[steelguttey]

oh and another thing. give him something to recover above the stage when you get sent up. cause you end up just falling and waiting for your opponent to kick you in the (clown) nose

EDIT: **** im not supposed to ask for balance changes here uhhh

fox is def #1 rn yea

 

[woundedust]

You see all this **** started in 1998

When sakuri thiught it would be a good idea to put a hit box on reflector

 

[didds]

Mario for second? No. Mario for top 5? Yea, as #5. He still has a hard time vs his melee buddies and loses to some of them, especially Marth and then add in some of the new threats as well; I don't see mario as number 2 at all.

Fireballs are number 2 I think, Mario is number 8,

(2 + 8) / 2 = 5?

 

[didds]

dub post, sorry

 

[DMG]

You see all this **** started in 1776

When suckrai thiught it would be a good idea to put a hit box on reflector make Frame 1 moves invincible

Fixed that for ya

 

[Deleted member]

Maybe Fox handles the new meta better than the other good Melee characters?

Maybe better recoveries means vertical KOs (That Fox happens to be extremely good at) are more valued because you don't need to edgeguard to secure them, compared to every other good Melee character that 9 times out of 10 KO'd off the side/bottom?

Maybe a really good dash dance is probably the best thing you could have against a cast with an overall higher base ground speed?

Maybe a character that's great at camping both horizontally and vertically gets a very obvious boost with a stagelist that now has an abundance of large stages compared to Melee's?

1 and 2 are probably the same thing, since the current meta is still quite combo oriented, but equally matches that with survivability via solid recoveries and crouch mechanics. fox cares about neither of these things.

fox's dashdance is actually quite a bit weaker in PM relative to melee because a normalized ground speed across the cast means that more characters can interact with fox appropriately in neutral with respect to dashdance only. what is more likely the case is #4 in which fox's ability to wait is worth even more, since waiting is generally the best answer to proper defensive play. higher functional mobility translates into being better at choosing when to attack. this is also probably why fox players don't need MU specific knowledge nearly as much as other characters and can just generally run Plan A against the entire cast without needing much adaptation.

all just imo, for now. tl;dr waiting is broken and fox is the best at waiting hence fox is broken.

and fox is broken in every sense of what that means.

 

[MLGF]

People whine about spacies being too good, but they never give reasonable nerfs.It's all whining without giving reasonable nerfs that aren't stupidly neutering to their playstyle.
So meh.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

People whine about spacies being too good, but they never give reasonable nerfs.It's all whining without giving reasonable nerfs that aren't stupidly neutering to their playstyle.
So meh.

F*** you.

I've rarely heard anyone defend spacies reasonably. It's always some variation of "Stop whining", "No they're NOT!!!!!" and "Gitgud". If you can't muster a reasonable counterpoint without resorting to ad hominem and getting excessively defensive then shut up and maybe think about why that might be. If you have reasonable counterpoints, then f***ing state them without being an abrasive little prick.

Not that there's any point, I'm pretty sure the precious little furballs will remain untouched.

 

[MLGF]

I apologize if I'm coming off as outspoken, but many ideas do seem to vastly change the way these characters play. If Fox is better then everyone, it's not so much of a significant margin that his kit has to be that altered. TBH, giving him a crouch cancelled shine was the only thing I've ever considered reasonable and logical.

And I have taken on people who are much better, execution wise anyways, and whether I win or lose it comes off as a pretty solid match that I would never pin the victory on the character.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I apologize if I'm coming off as outspoken, but many ideas do seem to vastly change the way these characters play. If Fox is better then everyone, it's not so much of a significant margin that his kit has to be that altered. TBH, giving him a crouch cancelled shine was the only thing I've ever considered reasonable and logical.

And I have taken on people who are much better, execution wise anyways, and whether I win or lose it comes off as a pretty solid match that I would never pin the victory on the character.

a) I can respect whatever opinion people have, but trying to downplay an entire viewpoint through dismissive terms is my personal berserk button. This is a forum, after all. Discussion is the entire point.

b) I'm going to level with you here. The spacies do not deserve their playstyle. They have way too many options. Fox's ability to confirm kills and his extensive combo tree combined with his mobility augmented with a safe way to tack on damage at range so he can win wars off attrition when it comes to tough choices in neutral has too much going to for it. His weaknesses don't outweigh his strengths at all and he wasn't hurt by the engine changes as much as his compatriots were.

c) Nobody should care if Fox is clear #1 broken tier 64 Pika Brawl MK level in this game. Things can and have been removed or adjusted simply because they are bad design choices that are too universally applicable or present too much reward for too little risk. Ike, Sonic, Lucario, Ivy are the major examples while even little things here and there are touched up - 2.6 Wario, Bowser's Fortresshog, effing super armor on DDD's Up-B. The question of Fox's placement is wholly and entirely independent of the question "Should Fox/the spacies be changed?" Because they are the epitome of poor design choices.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Space animals get combo-ed the hardest out of every character in the game, sans like Captain Falcon and Roy. They promote extremely fast gameplay which means the punishes are extremely devastating for both characters. The year isn't 20XX, it's 2014 and space animal mains will never have consistent frame perfect pressure and they will always make a mistake, whether it be the smallest spacing error, over-committing etc. Since many characters have chain-grabs and vertical juggles on space animals, space animals have to have at least the same strength punishes on said characters, or a better neutral in which they can land more hits and thus lead to kills. Either their neutral presence should be slightly reduced, or their punish game should be reduced.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

The punish matters when you can land it. Spacies have the means to prevent that very well, through their offense and mobility. It's been brought up a couple times how they don't even have garbage tech-rolls and the like, unlike say Falcon whom you just brought up.

 

[MLGF]

Don't lie, when spacies get punished they get punished hard, like 0-death.
And human beings aren't perfect, we'll never be as godly as you or the 20XX people assume. Thinking that anyone in the universe could execute so flawlessly is one of the most obtuse things I've ever heard.

AS a fellow Ike player you must know that, when you damn the theory fighter, that when Ike hits Fox the results are insane.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Don't lie, when spacies get punished they get punished hard, like 0-death.
And human beings aren't perfect, we'll never be as godly as you or the 20XX people assume. Thinking that anyone in the universe could execute so flawlessly is one of the most obtuse things I've ever heard.

And you should know that if a spacy won't play 100% perfect, it also won't be punished 100% perfectly either. Spacie mains fight humans as well.

That's why it comes down who can land hits more often and more consistently. Guess who wins that exchange.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

And you should know that if a spacy won't play 100% perfect, it also won't be punished 100% perfectly either. Spacie mains fight humans as well.

That's why it comes down who can land hits more often and more consistently. Guess who wins that exchange.

You don't have to play perfectly in order to consistently chain grab a Spacie, or up tilt/up air combo them though.

 

[MLGF]

...the better player generally is the who hits more often and consistently.

 

[Deleted member]

Lordling is literally the best poster I've seen in like the last 5+ years. Big fan.

edit:

...the better player generally is the who hits more often and consistently.

 

[DMG]

No Umbreon, I won't smack him upside the head with a shovel. *Winky Face*

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Considering the likely outcome of showdown, maybe I should make "Don't nerf Pit" my signature ...

 

[trash?]

look I got a metaknight player here that's now well-known b/c of S@X who isn't horrible and bad with DCs and named squeak so I'm satisfied

90% of MK's tech is ledge cancels, ledge-lover is top tier, confirmed

---

e: oh chrissake you're all talking this again? alright lemme make this big-text so everyone gets it nice and clear this time around:

IF THE METAGAME'S WORTH ANYTHING DECENT, "HIGH SKILL FLOOR/HIGH CHANCE TO BUGGER UP" MEANS NOTHING, BECAUSE A DEEPER METAGAME MEANS THAT MATTERS LESS AND LESS BEFORE IT MEANS NOTHING AT ALL. NOW STOP TALKING LIKE THIS IS 2003 AND IT ISN'T PAINLESS TO TECHSKILL W/ SPACIES IN THIS GAME YOU DOOFLORDS

ok done now

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Actually NVM Zero is broken nerf Pit take away his aerials, jumps and ability to move

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

look I got a metaknight player here that's now well-known b/c of S@X who isn't horrible and bad with DCs and named squeak so I'm satisfied

90% of MK's tech is ledge cancels, ledge-lover is top tier, confirmed

---

e: oh chrissake you're all talking this again? alright lemme make this big-text so everyone gets it nice and clear this time around:

IF THE METAGAME'S WORTH ANYTHING DECENT, "HIGH SKILL FLOOR/HIGH CHANCE TO BUGGER UP" MEANS NOTHING, BECAUSE A DEEPER METAGAME MEANS THAT MATTERS LESS AND LESS BEFORE IT MEANS NOTHING AT ALL. NOW STOP TALKING LIKE THIS IS 2003 AND IT ISN'T PAINLESS TO TECHSKILL W/ SPACIES IN THIS GAME YOU DOOFLORDS

ok done now

You mean spamming DC and Side Smash in neutral is actually a really dumb ****ing idea? Whoa

You learn something new everyday

 

[trash?]

fsmash is fair enough, punishing doesn't really come after it so hold it as long as you feel like, but oh my god that man does the worst things in neutral often

 

[Soft Serve]

Spacie tech isn't even that hard, its all muscle memory and stuff you can practice by yourself and just learn to apply the muscle memory that you practiced for hours in your room. Take characters that are only inhibited by difficulty to play or get punished hard, and give them to players that are good at playing them technically AND have such strong fundamentals they win neutral often (Mango, M2k, Leffen, PP, all the really good players) and dont get punished, and you see why they are so strong. It doesn't matter how strong a punish game is if you get less options to even use it, or your chances to use it aren't even in your hands to control. I feel like the Marh/shiek MU is like the perfect embodiment of this idea but I'm not really qualified to rant about it because most of my ideas about ot are from listening to Tai ramble about it or reading Umbreon/cactuar posts.

this horse has been beaten to death idk why it still has to be discussed.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

this horse has been beaten to death idk why it still has to be discussed.

I'm willing to pulverize the horse so long as there's a chance something can be done about the situation.

It's a general life philosophy I see no reason not to extend to Smash.

 

[Paradoxium]

instead of direct nerfs I would rather have fox just redesigned at this point. I feel like most melee players dislike pm fox which is why they opt to play different characters (mostly wolf). They already think Fox isnt good so why keep nerfing him when you can just redesign him? Project M has grown to the point where people won't give a **** if Fox's design was changed, if they gave him direct nerfs that would be a different story.

And giving him terrible lasers basically removes the whole play style of runaway fox instead of nerfing anything that makes him good.

 

[Cassio]

I've rarely heard anyone defend spacies reasonably. It's always some variation of "Stop whining", "No they're NOT!!!!!" and "Gitgud".

How is that not reasonable? I know that what most people here thing, but I sometimes worry about what the expectation of near perfect balance does to a community.

I really hope no ones thinking of nerfing Wolf or Falco anymore and thats more a general term for Fox. Those asking he be nerfed also arent being clear on the goal itself. Is there just something thats outright poor design? If not nerfing in the grand scheme is in relation to the rest of the cast. Is it ok if he beats most characters as long as he has a losing MU or two? Or does he need an overall nerf in most MUs? etc.

 

[trash?]

PAL fox.

that's all you'd need to do. anyone who'd whine about him being different then will gain the laughter of the entire continent of europe, because PAL fox was still incredible

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

PAL fox.

that's all you'd need to do. anyone who'd whine about him being different then will gain the laughter of the entire continent of europe, because PAL fox was still incredible

I don't agree on the FireFox nerf since all characters in PM have disgusting recoveries. The weaker up air, and the weaker up smash though, I agree with 100%

 

[DMG]

... since all characters in PM have disgusting recoveries

 

[GP&B]

I think people are pissed off because Fox has such a large presence in a game with around 40 other viable, untapped characters. There's times where I'd almost rather see him deleted from the game just to see what Fox mains would do instead.

 

[jtm94]

All you have to do is shine the disgusting recoveries. Works 100% of the time.

Honestly I don't like Fox as a character, don't enjoy playing against him, using him, watching him. I've seen people pick up nair shining and drill shining in less than a month and use it successfully on most of the cast.

The meta is developed for melee characters. Fox is definitively the best at this moment because the other characters are not figured out yet. In all honesty I see PM 20XX as having Fox as bottom tier because anyone else can do way better things. That doesn't mean he isn't over powered in many regards for THIS game's current meta game.

 

[Bleck]

Brawl Fox was pretty good, you guys

 

[Player -0]

Red is the color of democracy. I will destroy you using your own characters just like how in the 1960s jesus and america teamed up to steal russian spacecraft and go to the moon

You gonna Nolimar ditto me?

Spoiler

Communism apparently too?

Brawl Fox was pretty good, you guys

Until you had a Pikachu in the equation

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Yo, I don't like the fact that all of y'all, forgetting about the original pit. Armada comin, and he clip zero's wings.

 

[1FD]

since the current meta is still quite combo oriented

I don't get this because it seems to imply people are good at punish game or something in this current meta when everyone from scrubs like me to good players like armada and nausicaa basically straight up see the entire project m population as having ****ING TRASH punishment games and it's been this way forever in PM up to today.
Which kind of means the combo oriented play in the current meta you're talking about is like ****TY COMBOS that don't finish stocks aren't optimal and are more because people DI poorly and stuff.

it also won't be punished 100% perfectly either

Like this but to the extreme.
Everyone sucks at punish game right now so this is more true than ever and Fox not playing perfectly either = that's why it seems combo oriented in the meta BECAUSE THEY SUCK TOO

Punish game is super lacking from almost everyone but a few that know how to pick up details and apply them
Which is VERY few

EAT IT​

 

[Terotrous]

PAL fox.

that's all you'd need to do. anyone who'd whine about him being different then will gain the laughter of the entire continent of europe, because PAL fox was still incredible

I agree. It seems like part of the reason people are hesitant to change some things that were really intrinsic to Melee's metagame is because it wouldn't be "authentic", so applying the PAL nerfs, which were already approved by the developers and tested by the European community seems like the safest way to go.