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Tier List Speculation

Fish&Herbs19

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ez, you have to tell me who and from what anime or TV show your avatar is from. It has been killing me for like 2 days!

Also, I'd say that Pit and Mewtwo are soft counters to Spacies and Fast-Fallers in general. Pit and Mewtwo can more easily combo and kill than Fast-Fallers can to them, and in that case Pit and Mewtwo can make more mistakes and still come out on top if their combo game is solid enough.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
If Fox isn't the best, then who? I don't really see a good case for another character. I can think of the obvious short-hand list of characters it could be, most of them aren't too convincing though.

Until people sort out MU's for candidates like M2, Pit, Diddy, etc it will be hard to say Fox was replaced.
 

mimgrim

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If Fox isn't the best, then who? I don't really see a good case for another character. I can think of the obvious short-hand list of characters it could be, most of them aren't too convincing though.

Until people sort out MU's for candidates like M2, Pit, Diddy, etc it will be hard to say Fox was replaced.
I still stand by Pit.

But I probably know nothing. :L
 

Thane of Blue Flames

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I still stand by Pit.

But I probably know nothing. :L
Uh oh

You said 'Pit' to DMG

Prepare to have your argument crouch cancelled

(I'm only half-kidding)

Honestly though Pit is light, floaty and appreciably boned when swatted out of his glide since his Up-B is actually worse than Falco's. Pretty susceptible to meteors, too, and a decent combo weight for his type of character. I don't think he loses his bad match-ups as hard he wins his good ones, but he does have his problems. Saying he's good because of Armada and Zero is as valid as claiming Roy to be the best because of Sethlon.

I wish 20XX would hurry up already with every PM character having as many top mainers as Wolf.
 

mimgrim

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Uh oh

You said 'Pit' to DMG

Prepare to have your argument crouch cancelled

(I'm only half-kidding)

Honestly though Pit is light, floaty and appreciably boned when swatted out of his glide since his Up-B is actually worse than Falco's. Pretty susceptible to meteors, too, and a decent combo weight for his type of character. I don't think he loses his bad match-ups as hard he wins his good ones, but he does have his problems. Saying he's good because of Armada and Zero is as valid as claiming Roy to be the best because of Sethlon.

I wish 20XX would hurry up already with every PM character having as many top mainers as Wolf.
I would only use Zero as an example for how much better he started doing after switching to Pt in a Month. That speaks volume about the character imho. But other then that, I try to stay away from player arguments more often.

But I do honestly see Pit as the best character in the game. His projectile is pretty insane and can be used a zoning tool, edge guarding tool, and combo tool. He has really good combos and can get into them easily. His D-throw always leads into something. His recovery isn't garbage. And he fall and weight combination doesn't make him the ideal character to get combo'd easily. And though his neutral game may not be quite as good as Fox's, or any of the Spacies, but then again who is, it's still solid. He really doesn't seem to have many downsides and a lot of strengths to him.
Those are some of the reasons why I think he better then Fox. I think he has, overall, more positive traits going for him.
 

Soft Serve

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I'm surprised that the Zelda complaints have gone down in this thread.

Are people learning to live with it or did everyone get a memo about her being changed?
I think people just got tired of talking about her. Just like how people got tired of saying fireballs and boomerang are stupid (which they are) or saying how ridiculous Diddy's kit is (Which is partially true). If i could propose a new topic of complaint, I suggest Olimar. His damage output is ****ing ridiculous, he's a like ganon with actual combos that can crouch under projectiles. Its awesome actually, it just sucks taking like 55% from getting grabbed. U/dthrow >upsmash>upsmash>uair>uair>whatever does so much damage.
 
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Thane of Blue Flames

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If it makes anyone feel better I feel boomerballs are stupid as well now :p I hate nothing quite as much as lazers, but Mario shouldn't be able to zone as much as he can. Frankly Mario has enough melee capability without being able to forget about his drawbacks by hanging back and pressuring opponents until he finds an opening. Link similarly ought to have more commitment on rang.
 

9bit

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Dakpo guys http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator

Edit: o crap this isn't the social thread

OK so like, people ask for changes to this game a lot because changes are a thing that could happen. The best advice I ever heard about PM is "play it like it can't ever change."

Following this advice was a major milestone in my competitive journey.
 
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DMG

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DMG#931
I've met Dakpo in person, and teamed with him before. GET JELLY NERDS
 

9bit

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There's moves in PM that are really really annoying. But I think that's OK. I think if all those moves were taken out the game would be boring

We are in the absolute infancy of the metagame. We don't even know about anything

 
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Thane of Blue Flames

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I actually love so much of the stupid stuff in this game. The rocket-tag nature of the combat is what makes this game so ****ing wonderful. Ivy bair Pit arrows Ike fair Marth grab Mario FSmash Wolf everything. It's all so fun.
 

DrinkingFood

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The previous page of posts has so much awful logic regarding fox deserving a lower placement that I don't even know where to start

EDIT
Also what if we gave jiggs a storable rollout charge
It could have a new maximum charge, slightly stronger than its current max, and sends at a lower angle, but it takes longer to reach that new maximum, similar to the time Seamus's charge shot takes
When fully charged, it comes out quickly and can kill fairly early.
The threat of her being able to gain something that powerful given enough space would encourage opponents to approach her instead of camping her, helping to address a primary weakness in a new way.
Y/N
 
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DMG

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DMG#931
There's decent logic for Fox being lowered, if you had better characters around. It's like what's the point if Zelda, Mario, Ike, Link, etc go even or slightly better vs Fox, and then they all lose to Sheik or MK?
 

Thane of Blue Flames

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The problem is that most of the cast is well balanced in that they have good MUs, even MUs and painful MUs.

Fox doesn't. Even if he doesn't crap all over every character, the fact that he doesn't get crapped on by any character particularly hard makes him stick out up above everyone else on the viability scale. Fox doesn't have as much trouble with any character as Ike does with the Samuses, Falco, Lucas, Sheik, or Charizard does with Lucas, or Dedede does with a good chunk of the cast. The struggle is absent.

Edit: Also, even if he gets punished much harder in this game, the fact that Falco is balanced around an extremely stifling tool is stupid design. Pillars are pretty brainless, too. Fox at least has to follow DI. Wolf's aren't free either. Point is even if you don't believe the spacies are the absolute best or you don't think that they're MK level, they have **** in their kits that is at a level of stupidity that has warranted nerfs in other characters before. Which no one seems to deny.
 
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9bit

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Holy crap a tier list

Characters within tiers are listed alphabetically, not by order of rank

A - Great characters totally capable of winning tournaments solo
:diddy::falco::fox::ivysaur::link2::mario2::lucas::metaknight::pit::sheik::wolf:

B - Really good characters that can win tournaments solo, but with more effort
:kirby2::lucario::marth::mewtwopm::snake::sonic::wario:

C - Good characters that can win tournaments solo, but with even more effort
:bowser2::falcon::charizard::dedede::dk2::ike::gw::ness2::peach::pikachu2::rob::roypm::samus2::squirtle::toonlink::zelda::zerosuitsamus:

D - Decent characters that will have significant difficulty winning tournaments solo
:ganondorf::jigglypuff::luigi2:

I don't know / too soon to tell, but they're probably in B or C
:popo::olimar::yoshi2:


For real though. This.
 

9bit

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Do go on.

I split them up based on what I thought their potential was. Like, how easy it was to play the character and win tournaments. The C section is really big, and there could be some movement up and down.

I feel really good about the A tier. I think right now that's the consensus. The B and C split sorta represent my thoughts on the current meta. I see a lot of solid progress by all the characters in the B tier. I see some struggle from the C tier, but they all seem very capable to me.

/drunkbit
 

Thane of Blue Flames

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Little things.

B/C could be merged honestly. There's nothing that any of those characters do that put them clearly above anyone in the tier below them, while C tier has a few characters who could make the claim of being in the space above them. Krrrrby for example has solid offstage and good onstage kill power but it held back in terms of sniping by his poor drift and lacks any truly decisive neutral tools on-stage. His greatest blessing there are Dash Attack, MK Dthrow and horizontal Side-B but that just translates to better punish than neutral. Solidly mid, when you add it all up.

Snake's most prominent representatives are one S-Tier player and one A/A- Tier player. His punish and survivability are OUT OF THIS WORLD but they kind of have to be because the man takes a real beating. Worst aerial mobility in the game and his only off-stage mix-up being *blowing himself up* are no joke. Prolex make it look good but it takes a very specific sort of player to make Snake work, and Snake almost always has to put in more work than the other guy just live long enough to blow up that C4. I could see it coming close but Snake has huge weights on either side of the scale. Very balanced.

I will give you Marth. (Sorry, @Umbreon I still think Tiara prince is the **** in this game)

Weight buff was not enough to turn Mewtwo into Snake and people are starting to figure out that taking ledge open Mewtwo up to take risks and lets that little window where he's vulnerable after a teleport be exploited. Scythe doesn't main Mewtwo but watching Rat go to work on his Mewtwo yesterday makes you even question M2K's assertion that Mewtwo destroys fast-fallers. He's also right about Mewtwo's tier placement, right around mid, closer to the upper end, but M2 doesn't dominate as hard as most people seem to think. It's a gut reaction to how good the teleport has become without stopping to consider its counterplay. Like Diddy nanners.

Sonic loses hard to a character that knows to play patient, not play his game and stuff his approaches well. He's slippery and his combos have combos but he struggles to finish about as much as ZSS does and his MUs aren't as consistent as they might appear as first glance. The build has finally settled and he's Sonic: Speed plus other things but not enough to be overwhelming or overly impressive.

Whereas Tink, Samus, Zamus, Peach, Ike, Zard, Chu can all be argued to things that either work for them in over 70% of their MUs or take the heat off in the bad ones. Tink is frankly not much worse than Link and Samus is frankly better than every character she shares her tier with and it's surprising to me that people don't see that. Samus CC, buffed with the crawl, Brawl Zair with Melee kit, improved smash missiles, improved FSmash range (minor but notable), stupid survivability, great keep away AND get-off-me options for a kit that really flows, without even talking about Ice mode ... Yeah, no, Samus is as underrated as Peach. (who still has a whole untapped meta of footstool DJCs + AGTs + I've never even seen a PM Peach DACUS out of a Dthrow even though Peach could keep doing Melee Peach things forever and still be good).

I know merging B/C sounds a little dumb but the game is that close honestly. I'm raising my eyebrows more at the split than if there was no split.

Frankly, kick Bowser, Ganon, Oli, Icies, Puff and maybe Weegee out since I can't get a handle on Weegee for the life of me and slice off the top 10 or so and you have the rest of the cast chillin in a single tier. It's that good right now. 3.02 could honestly be the last release and be the crown jewel of balance in Smash and fighting games.
 

jtm94

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Olimar can chain like 15 dash attacks on fast fallers on any DI in Training Room. Oh no, let's complain some more.

Olimar is a monster forreal forreal. I struggle against him with floaties because usmash/uair with flowered Red/Purple KO at similar(earlier?) percentages as Fox would. And he can put that damage on insanely fast. With a flowered white if you pummel only once while the opponent is at 15 they will go straight to like 45 50 not even counting the through, just pummel and release. Red pikmin also do like 22% when bloomed.

Zelda is beat. I will agree with anyone that says she has broken or ugly moves, but as a character she is lacking and just plain poop to a lot of the more versatile characters in the game. I've played her from both sides and I'm not as impressed as I am from half the cast. Even Ness has what seems to be versatility to get him through tourneys solo.

Also, I do agree Link boomerang is a little fast, but I've been dealing with everything in the game atm and it can be dealt with although ulcer inducing.

On that note, I have been playing with a very calm mind and there is very little in this game that upsets me. I think M2's teleport is a lil fast, Fox is still good, MK is pretty good, Sonic doesn't belong in this game and is crazy unfinished, and fireballs are by far the biggest outlier at the moment. I still don't know why fireballs needed to be faster than in Melee, have less lag, and have the strength of Doc's pills. Luigi's fireballs are so beat in comparison. I'm surprised Doc Mario hasn't been arrested for all of these pills he is just handing out. It literately covers all of the, almost nonexistent, holes he has in his game without them. I have used Mario, faced Mario, watched Mario and it is definitely the 3.0 version of 2.6 razorleaf. If it doesn't get changed I guess I'll be playing fireball turbo.
 
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Hinichii.ez.™

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What the hell do you mean, red pikmin do 22%? On wat??

Olimar's combo goes from like 0 starting from a grab or usmash to the low 40's and or up to 60's in one string extra fast. He even got CG on most of the cast. Ain't nobody ****ing a clean stock up like my boy.
 
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Terotrous

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Did someone say Fox buffs

Don't make me post my superspacy moveset
Fox buffs for 3.03:

Blaster replaced with Falco's version
Fox Illusion is jump cancellable and no longer becomes helpless
Fire Fox now starts up instantly
Reflector regains intangibility from Melee

Seems fair.


Anyway, if by some miracle Fox is not #1, he's clearly top 3. His toolset is just packing extreme power and speed from every angle. He doesn't have the range of some other characters, but he's so fast he can easily work his way around it. I also agree with the comment about him just generally performing well against most of the cast, though I don't agree that he's alone in this, I think most of the top tiers on my chart have that property.
 

Droß

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I had the privilege of playing both a Fire Samus and an Ice one back to back yesterday at Smashing Grounds; neither used taunt cancelling to switch kits mid match which was a shame. Samus has unbelievable versatility and room for mix-ups and adaptation, and counter-picking (by my personal first glance) against her seems very difficult for this reason. Like someone above mentioned, very underrated and unexplored character. As a personal prediction, she's top 15 if not top 10 material.
 

Player -0

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Olimar can chain like 15 dash attacks on fast fallers on any DI in Training Room. Oh no, let's complain some more.

Olimar is a monster forreal forreal. I struggle against him with floaties because usmash/uair with flowered Red/Purple KO at similar(earlier?) percentages as Fox would. And he can put that damage on insanely fast. With a flowered white if you pummel only once while the opponent is at 15 they will go straight to like 45 50 not even counting the through, just pummel and release. Red pikmin also do like 22% when bloomed.

Zelda is beat. I will agree with anyone that says she has broken or ugly moves, but as a character she is lacking and just plain poop to a lot of the more versatile characters in the game. I've played her from both sides and I'm not as impressed as I am from half the cast. Even Ness has what seems to be versatility to get him through tourneys solo.

Also, I do agree Link boomerang is a little fast, but I've been dealing with everything in the game atm and it can be dealt with although ulcer inducing.

On that note, I have been playing with a very calm mind and there is very little in this game that upsets me. I think M2's teleport is a lil fast, Fox is still good, MK is pretty good, Sonic doesn't belong in this game and is crazy unfinished, and fireballs are by far the biggest outlier at the moment. I still don't know why fireballs needed to be faster than in Melee, have less lag, and have the strength of Doc's pills. Luigi's fireballs are so beat in comparison. I'm surprised Doc Mario hasn't been arrested for all of these pills he is just handing out. It literately covers all of the, almost nonexistent, holes he has in his game without them. I have used Mario, faced Mario, watched Mario and it is definitely the 3.0 version of 2.6 razorleaf. If it doesn't get changed I guess I'll be playing fireball turbo.
Nolimar combos real. On spaces I'm pretty sure you can't chain 15 dash attacks with good DI. They hit the ground and can get away. Olimar can probably get a grab off of it and stuff and then convert into a Down Smash edgeguard. Olimar's recovery still sucks.
 

mimgrim

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Well I wasn't saying that the argument couldn't be made reasonably well, just that the last page is representative of not how to do it
Sometimes I'm not good at getting my thoughts out properly or say what I mean well.

I, also, probably don't know what I'm talking about anyway lol.
 

Hinichii.ez.™

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Nolimar combos real. On spaces I'm pretty sure you can't chain 15 dash attacks with good DI. They hit the ground and can get away. Olimar can probably get a grab off of it and stuff and then convert into a Down Smash edgeguard. Olimar's recovery still sucks.
He can't. It's good. But the animation is jank. If you have nB, jump, and 4pikmin you don't die. Unless, you get edge guarded.
 

1FD

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Pretty sure Link could chain a lot of Dash Attacks together in Melee too but just couldn't do nearly as much to get the initial hit or finish a stock off it.

@ Thane of Blue Flames Thane of Blue Flames
I don't think Mewtwo's teleport being good is the thing that makes people think he's good and you might want to double check your reasons for why people think Mewtwo is good in other areas.
Also ZSS doesn't have trouble finishing at all it's just all just a myth. lol
Sonic can still touch to death anyone anyway so that struggle to finish isn't exactly a huge issue and he's still as overwhelming as others with that kind of speed since he doesn't need to approach ever but rather can just be around and he gets to always play the baiting game.
You're hyping up Samus a lot and she's good but outside of crawl and FSmash which I totally thought there was a speed buff to it and more importantly the Zair everything else you mentioned is still Melee Samus and that kit doesn't make her overwhelm or even break neutral unless you jump into **** because it's STILL good old Samus.
I would love for her to be a top 1/4 character and don't doubt it but I still wouldn't be surprised if she didn't make top 1/2
 

Mr.Random

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Can someone tell me why Fox is so high on some of these lists? He was good in Melee but in PM there are many characters that have potential to surpass him and even then I think the 3 nerfs he got in a row hurt him way more than Falco. People should put him in the #3-4 spot.
 
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Plum

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And who, pray tell, is surpassing him?
To take it further, in your own post you even say that characters have the potential to be better than Fox. But are they better than Fox right now? I don't care if Lucas/Mewtwo/whoever is theoretical God, if they aren't proving it NOW it doesn't matter because a tier list reflects the current state of the game.
 

Bryonato

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People keep saying Fox isn't #1 and acting like they know something that everyone else doesn't yet they never list who they would put ahead of him. It's really irritating.

For example on my last tier list I had Falco at #2 and a few people disagreed with that, which I completely understand (and somewhat agree with myself).
I looked at where the metagame stands at this point and time and thought to myself: "Okay. Who could reasonably be the SECOND BEST character out of 41 characters aside from Falco? I tossed around a few ideas but ultimately could not firmly say "Yes, X character deserves the #2 spot, not Falco," so I just put Falco there.

EDIT: LOL and Plum just ninja'd what I was trying to say. Good stuff Plum.
And who, pray tell, is surpassing him?
To take it further, in your own post you even say that characters have the potential to be better than Fox. But are they better than Fox right now? I don't care if Lucas/Mewtwo/whoever is theoretical God, if they aren't proving it NOW it doesn't matter because a tier list reflects the current state of the game.
 
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