Tier List Speculation

[BluntedMask]

Add charizard to the top of the list then, if someone has a slow tech roll he could just keep dthrowing into an upthrow for a stock.
(Obviously insane reactions are required)

 

[Ali Baba 177]

@ Player -0 If you could transfer anyones grab game to the character you play, whose grab would you want? Everything stays the same, range, tether, pummel damage, throw damage, knockback etc.

 

[Player -0]

@ Player -0 If you could transfer anyones grab game to the character you play, whose grab would you want? Everything stays the same, range, tether, pummel damage, throw damage, knockback etc.

Depends what character. I play a bunch. Ganon's D-Throw is pretty beast. Also Snake's Up Throw comboing/chaingrabbing + Killing at later percents is really good.

If Sonic had Sheik's Down Throw could he chain grab infinite?

 

[Ripple]

Id give samus ddd's grab

 

[Apollo Ali]

Skyloft is good as **** for boomerang lol what

 

[9bit]

Holy crap a tier list

Characters within tiers are listed alphabetically, not by order of rank

A - Great characters totally capable of winning tournaments solo


B - Really good characters that can win tournaments solo, but with more effort


C - Good characters that can win tournaments solo, but with even more effort


D - Decent characters that will have significant difficulty winning tournaments solo


I don't know / too soon to tell, but they're probably in B or C

 

[DrinkingFood]

Holy crap a tier list

C

Literally every ****ing person

 

[9bit]

ROB so baaaaaaaaad Kappa

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Olimar and yoshi B tier'in
Leave IC down there, just say, bad instead of w/e you said.

 

[Radical Larry]

Alright, time for my tier list, as well. Please note that this list has changed due to my experience with Project M, and as such, is much different than my previous list. So here is my list and the ranks:

S-Tier Plus:

S-Tier:

A-Tier:

B-Tier:

C-Tier:

D-Tier:

 

[Paradoxium]

ROB so baaaaaaaaad Kappa

You know, I used to think that too until Drinkingfood used dthrow, uair, uair, fair, fair, fair, fair, fair

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

S-Tier Plus:

This is the point in your list where I knew you were just messing around.
Btw
What color is this? I want it as my font color.

 

[Terotrous]

Holy crap a tier list

Characters within tiers are listed alphabetically, not by order of rank

A - Great characters totally capable of winning tournaments solo


B - Really good characters that can win tournaments solo, but with more effort


C - Good characters that can win tournaments solo, but with even more effort


D - Decent characters that will have significant difficulty winning tournaments solo


I don't know / too soon to tell, but they're probably in B or C

Rather than nitpicking the specific character positions, I'm going to say that I don't think "how well they can win a tournament by themselves" is a great way to decide a tier list. A character who is really good against most of the cast but has a couple awful matchups could easily fall low on the list, because consistency is by far the most valuable trait by this definition.

 

[Radical Larry]

This is the point in your list where I knew you were just messing around.
Btw
What color is this? I want it as my font color.

No, I am not; Link only jumped up one from my previous list, actually. To be honest, Link is mainly a top 3 or top 5 character. S-Tier Plus is a ranking similar to S+, and I put the three in there due to them having very wonderful match-ups in tournaments and competitive fights. But you know, my tier list is somewhat similar to 9bit's tier list, now that I see the two side-by-side.

A - Great characters totally capable of winning tournaments solo


B - Really good characters that can win tournaments solo, but with more effort


C - Good characters that can win tournaments solo, but with even more effort


D - Decent characters that will have significant difficulty winning tournaments solo


I don't know / too soon to tell, but they're probably in B or C

S-Tier Plus:

S-Tier:

A-Tier:

B-Tier:

C-Tier:

D-Tier:

Though I see some rather dramatic differences, I cannot deny that there are some of similarities on each list, too.
We each have practically the same top 5 characters, albeit ranked differently. Mario, Lucas, Lucario, Marth and Ike remain the same. Some characters on their respective tiers are placed almost the same way in both lists.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

ZSS is nowhere near that bad.

 

[XXXX1000]

*come into topic*
*look at tier list*
fox, falco still the best
link is best
squirtle, samus, ness all bad
zss is bad?
olimar worst in game
ganondorf above more than 2 characters
*leave topic, never to return*

 

[BluntedMask]

ZSS really isn't that great though. Really no OOS options and the only moves that really flow are dair into whatever.

You have to get a hard read with dsmash to kill reliably with her.

 

[standardtoaster]

zss second to last worst character? @ Oro?! school these fools

 

[Empyrean]

inb4 Oro says that ZSS is indeed bad, he's just super good with her.

 

[Scuba Steve]

the only moves that really flow are dair into whatever.

Except for nair -> nair -> nair -> nair -> nair -> nair -> nair

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

ZSS really isn't that great though. Really no OOS options and the only moves that really flow are dair into whatever.

You have to get a hard read with dsmash to kill reliably with her.

You know, you have to know what the hell you're talking about before you say things.

 

[XXXX1000]

moves that flow into each other? Her tilts lead to good combos because they don't pop very high up, at low percents her side-b is useful for combos, nair can be linked to itself or other moves pretty easily and dsmash and neutral B also provide opportunities to start things up

additionally, her bair and nair are definitely more reliable to kill than dsmash, and fsmash can score kills as well as neutral b leading to something

I don't even play ZSS but saying ZSS has no flow and no kill options is terribly incorrect

 

[Axrz]

moves that flow into each other? Her tilts lead to good combos because they don't pop very high up, at low percents her side-b is useful for combos, nair can be linked to itself or other moves pretty easily and dsmash and neutral B also provide opportunities to start things up

additionally, her bair and nair are definitely more reliable to kill than dsmash, and fsmash can score kills as well as neutral b leading to something

I don't even play ZSS but saying ZSS has no flow and no kill options is terribly incorrect

Nair is definitely not a kill move....

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I think he meant Fair.

 

[Axrz]

I think he meant Fair.

That would make more sense.

 

[kaizo13]

if only ZSS had a better grab

 

[Terotrous]

Since we're all tierlisting again I guess I'll update mine.


High Tier:




Mid Tier:




Low Tier:




Bottom Tier:




The most significant change here is that I've changed the tiers. Originally I had high / upper mid / lower mid / low, but the true cutoff in terms of character quality seemed to occur about halfway through upper mid so I merged those 3 tiers into just two. I've also created a new, bottom tier, just for ICs and Jiggs, who I feel are noticeably worse than the rest of the cast. Those two are definitely top priority for changes.

Beyond this, I've moved a couple characters around. Peach, Sonic, Snake, and Zelda clearly just don't have the tournament performance to be in the highest tier. Samus is clearly a little better than I thought, though she still seems quite stage dependent so I have trouble moving her much higher. G&W Honestly might be able to move up to the very last spot in mid, but I'm still not quite sold on him yet. The rest shouldn't really be that shocking, except maybe for some specific ordering concerns but it's very hard to order the list at this point.

 

[NickRiddle]

People still think Kirby isn't bad?
What is this nonsense?

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Why do you think kirby is so high up? I like the just general tier idea in theory (just having like 3 tiers), but when I look at it it just seems like youre claiming there is definitely difference between those tiers while having some more tiers (+ and -) you can show more that characters are close and/or can easily be moved around. But with big tiers it seems like big jumps, but I know its probably not intended that way and your tiers are 'close' to each other.

 

[Plum]

People still think Kirby isn't bad?
What is this nonsense?

Kirby starts to look impressive when you've watched Chu beat enough players that he's WAAAAAAAAAAAY better than.

 

[NickRiddle]

Kirby starts to look impressive when you've watched Chu beat enough players that he's WAAAAAAAAAAAY better than.

Kirby starts to look inhale whenever Chu plays.

 

[Pickledpotatoes]

Tires

I want to kick Ganon down a few spots on your list and tell Captain Falcon that everything will be alright. Telling a Falcon that he's worse than ganon is offensive to knees everywhere.

 

[Oro?!]

ZSS is probably around the 20-25~ range out of a cast of 41. She has extremely good traits, but for the most part her moves are really fair and to top it off she doesn't have a reliable grab. If she had A grab like Sheik or Marth, she would likely be a top 5 character. That's all it takes when you have the tools she does. Too bad there are Swords, Spacies, Boomerangs, and Teleports galore in this game.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

You know you could just give her an actual grab ...

Maybe?

Pwease?

 

[Giygacoal]

You know you could just give her an actual grab ...

Maybe?

Pwease?

I agree, but is it really fair to ask for buffs so soon, when so few people even explored the character?
Then again, if a new grab is really all it takes... holy ****.

 

[Nguz95]

Lol Chu is just good at smash in general. Him and Chillin have been around since the beginning, and for some reason people tend to overlook them.

 

[Ripple]

at least your grab range is as long as your body oro?! what could be said about my character?

oh yeah...the same thing

 

[1FD]

ZSS really isn't that great though. Really no OOS options and the only moves that really flow are dair into whatever.

You have to get a hard read with dsmash to kill reliably with her.

You haven't played a good ZSS then?
CAUSE YOU CRAZAY

She has UpB out of shield and that's enough which also leads to free grabs and stuns because of easy techchases
You can combo INTO Dsmash and Grabs pretty easily at even higher % but at low % she can rack up all the damage she needs off a single combo and just finish you at the end since she can touch anyone and that's their stock

Also she has DOWN B and it's SO GOOD like if you don't DI SUPER FAR AWAY from a Nair and you're gonna be off stage even a bit she can footstool instant Down B Dive Kick and you're 2 miles below and away from the stage and she snaps to the ledge with instantly JCing the Footdive and instant Down B Dive Kick from the ledge at ANY horizontal or vertical distance and do this like 2 or 3 times a SECOND
It's stupid and hits hard and can be lead into as easily as a Nair into Grab into Down Throw into Nair into UpB into Down Smash into Foward Smash combo and even that type of random combo arrangement works in situations and is pretty free
And if you make it passed the footdives off stage and fear of every stray hit leading to a Grab or a hit that leads to a Grab or Down Smash and donno where to DI because a Dive Kick or Balrog is waiting for you in either direction to finish your stock regardless of what you do
Yeah she's a BIATCH

 

[Terotrous]

Why do you think kirby is so high up?

I don't think it's really that shocking. Kirby was super good in Smash 64 before being nerfed into uselessness in Melee. In PM, everything that was terrible about him has been undone (no more escapable throws, no more horrible dash attack, attacks do actual damage again, etc), and he's actually gotten some nice buffs too, like drastically faster Down B and his new Cutter Dash. Basically he's just really well-rounded and powerful now. He's also got one of the scariest gimp games around because he can go super deep for those kills and not really have to worry about not making it back, and that's pretty important in this game now that recoveries are so much better.

And yes, if you're not convinced yet, just watch Chu destroy some people with him. Sure, Chu is too good in general, but it still gives you a feel for how good some of Kirby's tools are.

I like the just general tier idea in theory (just having like 3 tiers), but when I look at it it just seems like youre claiming there is definitely difference between those tiers while having some more tiers (+ and -) you can show more that characters are close and/or can easily be moved around. But with big tiers it seems like big jumps, but I know its probably not intended that way and your tiers are 'close' to each other.

The difference between the bottom of one tier and the top of the next isn't too much. Apart from Jiggs and the ICs, the game is pretty decently balanced overall. Very few matches feel really lopsided, though some matchup + stage combinations are clearly bad.

I want to kick Ganon down a few spots on your list and tell Captain Falcon that everything will be alright. Telling a Falcon that he's worse than ganon is offensive to knees everywhere.

Honestly it's almost impossible to know how to order that tier. Those characters all have issues which give them some bad matchups but it's all going to come down to the tier placement of the people who beat them. I do think Ganon could potentially be better than Falcon though, for the simple reason that Ganon got buffs from Melee while Falcon didn't.

 

[Pickledpotatoes]

Honestly it's almost impossible to know how to order that tier. Those characters all have issues which give them some bad matchups but it's all going to come down to the tier placement of the people who beat them. I do think Ganon could potentially be better than Falcon though, for the simple reason that Ganon got buffs from Melee while Falcon didn't.

I couldn't order characters in tiers well if I was paid to, tbh. I just envision the terror in falcon's eyes knowing that t3h_d@rk_pr1n3 could possibly be better than him. It would hurt to falcon punch after that knowledge.

Spoiler

inb4 falcon punch gets recoil damage in sm4sh