Tier List Speculation

[Radical Larry]

It's harder to laser camp when there are two tall platforms and a level change. Also, the left edge is difficult to sweetspot. Not nearly as hard as Lylat, but still difficult.

What about Dracula's Castle and its changing platforms? I'm sure that a lot of characters are great against the Spacies and some other high tiers on there.

 

[GrosMinou]

Dracula's castle is rarely allowed for singles (at least, where I live). I would see is as a pretty good stage for a "runaway fox"...

 

[Radical Larry]

Dracula's castle is rarely allowed for singles (at least, where I live). I would see is as a pretty good stage for a "runaway fox"...

If a Fox were to be a "runaway", a Sonic could easily catch up to him and chain throw him to a meteor.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Lylat is good for Falco though... at least not bad. I agree with Skyloft and Fox&Wolf on Lylat.

 

[Radical Larry]

Wolf doesn't need anymore nerfing as it is for his blaster; it already sucks due to its shorter range and slow speed.

 

[GrosMinou]

If a Fox were to be a "runaway", a Sonic could easily catch up to him and chain throw him to a meteor.

Yes, but I mean, Stage selection is highly dependent on Character Matchup.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Wolf doesn't need anymore nerfing as it is for his blaster; it already sucks due to its shorter range and slow speed.

His laser is good. You're drunk.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

The community hate for Skyloft bugs me. It's an excellent CP against projectile characters, which plenty of people seem to have issue with. Between Skyloft and the small stages/platform heavy ones that you can use to corner or outmaneuver characters like the Links or Falco, you always have a decent CP option v/s a spammer.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

The community hate for Skyloft bugs me. It's an excellent CP against projectile characters, which plenty of people seem to have issue with. Between Skyloft and the small stages/platform heavy ones that you can use to corner or outmaneuver characters like the Links or Falco, you always have a decent CP option v/s a spammer.

Yea, hate runs deep. I just put a nice song on it so as long as I have my build, I'm ight with the stage.

 

[GP&B]

I don't personally like it as Ike because it messes with QD consistency, but it does offer some unique elements to work with otherwise like the two overhead platforms. Lylat is disgusting.

 

[GrosMinou]

Lylat is disgusting.

I approve.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

those lylat edges tho

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

A well spaced up-smash from below covers every tech option on Lylat platforms and Skyloft's various levels helps relieve projectile pressure immensely, which Ike struggles with. Broaden your horizons and approach the stages with an open mind, they're a lot more interesting that your initial gut reaction would have you believe.

 

[GP&B]

I do owe to myself to at least learn the stage. I just hate the ledges with a burning passion (although not so much with Ike). I would really love it if I got good at the stage and got CP'd on it though.

 

[Plum]

People don't like Lylat because they aren't willing to put the time into learning how to recover on it.
That's why I love taking people to Lylat
(plus the stage is just badass as **** flying through space doe)

 

[GrosMinou]

(plus the stage is just badass as **** flying through space doe)

one of the reason I don't pick it, ****s with my brain..

 

[Radical Larry]

Skyloft is a good stage for floaty characters with good recoveries (like Samus or Mewtwo) or characters with decent jumping maneuvers (like Toon Link or Captain Falcon), since the edges provide ample opportunities and strategies for the mixes against various other characters. And due to its short-medium size, it's good for slow-paced characters, as well.

With Lylat, the stage is good for characters with attacks that can go through the soft platforms from below (like Marth, Roy, Ike, Link, Mewtwo and many more) and to me, the ledges are easy to grab and sweetspot when recovering for a character. But here's my take for it, seeing all of the comments: raise the soft platforms and lengthen the sweetspot for it so recoveries can be better OR lengthen the stage overall.

 

[Tlock]

People don't like Lylat because they aren't willing to put the time into learning how to recover on it.

I don't like Lylat because of all the crap going on in the background. If a semi consistent background was put in i'd enjoy the stage.

 

[Radical Larry]

I don't like Lylat because of all the crap going on in the background. If a semi consistent background was put in i'd enjoy the stage.

Don't like the background? Deal with it. It's there, it's not hazardous to characters, it's a cool feature. But you should focus on the fight at-hand, not the background.

 

[Plum]

Being distracted by the background has got to be one of the worst johns I've heard.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Metal Cavern should be legal, that stage would have some epic battles.

 

[BluntedMask]

But then bowser is half the stage...

 

[Terotrous]

But then bowser is half the stage...

He needs it, how many good Bowser stages are there out there?

 

[Axrz]

He needs it, how many good Bowser stages are there out there?

Like 4.

 

[Soft Serve]

I had no idea that people disliked lylat for the ledges, I always thought they johned about "it still looking like it tilts" or something. The ledges are fine, if you're recovering badly and consistently get caught under the lip, get better lol. After living on Melee battle field for so long Lylat is so nice. The ledge boxes are actually properly on ledges fffs. Its not even like the lack of walls bone tether recoveries anymore.

Fox doesn't mind the stage either, he doesn't have bad stages. If laser damage didn't get nerfed it would be even better for fox, dispite the high ceiling. If spacies are getting caught under the lip with their up-b they are doing something horribly wrong.

If you want to pick a stage to CP a spacie take them to Skyworld or Green hill zone. The inconsistent platforms mess up falco combos, and the wide open spaces allow for easy juggles and chaingrabs. They also have high ceilings so you'll live like 10% longer from up-smashes.

Metal Cavern is really nice imo.

 

[sneakytako]

IDK, in brawl snakes used to pick lylat because the nades/mines are REALLY hard to see on that stage. It's pretty lame.

*Lylat background legit annoying.

 

[trash?]

He needs it, how many good Bowser stages are there out there?

enough to where the average stage list will always have a bowser-friendly counterpick, even if the opponent bans three of them

stage list is kind of booty buttcheeks y'all

 

[JOE!]

But then bowser is half the stage...

And charizard is the other half.

Also, Lylat is sooooooooo good for Zard. Easily his best CP

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Being distracted by the background has got to be one of the worst johns I've heard.

But...There's so many colors and I swear I seen slippy there before

 

[trash?]

Being distracted by the background has got to be one of the worst johns I've heard.

or a general problem one has with visual disorders, seeing how it's genuinely one of the most obnoxious backgrounds on the planet and is generally why I dislike going on it ever

unless having bad eyes is a john now, in which case rip M2K's glasses

 

[Player -0]

or a general problem one has with visual disorders, seeing how it's genuinely one of the most obnoxious backgrounds on the planet and is generally why I dislike going on it ever

unless having bad eyes is a john now, in which case rip M2K's glasses

Dirty glasses and stuff. Having bad eyesight sucks.

 

[SpiderMad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPMiSHh9eHo#t=203

 

[1FD]

LONG POST RUINING EVERYTHING
So was talking with peeps a lot like I said last page and we went pretty elaborate on stuff about the game from stages to characters to whatever.
They explained their ideas and stuff and each had our own ideas for the Tier List but really weren't far off from each other and after the discussions my idea of it moved even closer to theirs who were both pretty close and didn't change much even though they had different reasons for a lot of things.

More importantly I'm gonna list a bunch of random points about stuff that I think others might overlook or underlook LIKE I DO TOO because I've seen posts about stuff a lot or whatever.
Or just interesting things that I remember talking about character by character.
Lucky me I have ridiculously good and smart players around always getting fresh looks at stuff over time because of their situations and they play smash for really weird reasons in really weird ways that SOMEHOW FOR NO REASON allow them to be good enough without ever playing that they can show up and be TERRIBLE then by the end of the day take a few friendly sets off a top 10 in the world melee player and explain why and how and what happened in stupid precise detail then disappear for a year because they're ***holes

So they have pretty cool outlooks on things DESPITE BEING REALLY BIZARRE
NOTES FROM THIS BRAIN EXPLOSION


Wario I used to think was amazing then NOT SO GOOD but basically the kind of safe pressure he can do just by being present is top of the class and if working mostly towards not getting hit while staying near he benefits greatly by taking his time even when not getting offense just because his presence is solid and abusable with patience.

Mario has trouble with things like what Wario does when people go to places he can't trap them OUT of but he benefits greatly from having what bamsy and tenki called SUNRISE SUPRISES everywhere
Like it's a fresh morning and you get a new stock and are ready to have a good fresh day enjoying the sunrise then SURPRISE Mario goes DOWN THROW INTO PIVOT DOWN SMASH AND YOU'RE OFF STAGE GETTING CAPED and that's the end of your good day

Luigi has WHAT I CALL the stupidest design but it's actually pretty cool in how he benefits more from HAIL MARY stuff than anyone else in the game and can get away with it which this game ultimately comes down to option selection and choices anyway so he breaks standard smash in a way

Peach can waveland from ledges and buffs are cool or whatever but mostly she's amazing because no matter who or what she is fighting she can turn any situation around with quick hard hitboxes or AMOEBA stuff like they described and stuff like Dash Attack and grab combos work on everyone
So even if she's not dominating in neutral she never really gets dominated or even LOSES neutral to almost anyone but a few so the punish she gets sways her favor a lot

Bowser has a beefy problem but his JAB and more highly aggressive play might give him enough of that HAIL MARY factor benefit to keep him going at least in less polarizing matchups and more of the close matchups he can have good chances.

Yoshi makes everything free with easy everything from more speed and range in MARTH STYLE DD GRAB GAMES and more combo damage and finishing that FALCO STYLE COMBO GAMES so they said he might almost be too good but at least has a niche so it's not broken

DK is super simple and not flexible but within that simplicity he's very complex so he's a cool character to have in smash
They also said he's one of the few characters where the top players that people can see with him are actually decent relative to how good the character can be played which is unlike almost all other characters in the game and that's a good showing of his simplicity at the root of his game being his best trait

Diddy is great even without bananas simply with DD GAMES and has always been great even without B MOVES but add that and he'll never be in a bad spot also Nair and Dair were mutually agreed as favorite moves by them

Falcon Side B helps so much with edgeguarding and stuff that it's probably one of the biggest buffs in the game that nobody gives credit too and Falcon Kick is great

Wolf has more ways of finishing people off stray hits than most in the game with ways of leading into Side Bs like Falcon and with a Down Smash like Mario and his flexibility makes him not single tracked so he's super complex

Fox has to play a lot more simple since his flexible stuff isn't as functional so he's like another version of DK

Falco is saved by reflecting projectiles without lag since a lot of his holes are easy to break through and he can't shut down interaction options as universally as he would like

ICs are really easy for almost everyone to separate and their punishment game is almost obsolete when that happens so they have actual stat and attribute issues more than gameplay functioning stuff even if they're neutral is pumped up with tools the tools are still subpar for how bad and easy it can be to solo hard dive AI and fight after.

Zelda is hot

Shiek is cool

Combo them and they're just right but yeah basically Shiek gets clobbered if she's touched and clobbers if she touches others but she has a hard time stalling neutral which is what she needs to do to win neutral. Zelda is kind of the same in needing to nullify neutral and make all interactions scary but she does it differently and they're both pretty close in goodness in the game because of this archetype

Link has a stupid Zair and stupid combos from anything so he's great at making OTHERS have to do stuff which some characters hate like Mario or Bowser from earlier but if characters LIKE doing things and can't do the things they WANT to do when they're FORCED to do things then he does great.

TL is solid and every hit leading to grab isn't as free as older versions but he's better in other areas which basically means he's even MORE solid than solid NOT EVEN ROCKS CAN COMPETE
This was another one like DK where they said the top players that people can watch with TL are closer to playing him optimally than most other characters are.

Ganon has trouble getting things down when he gets people cornered WHICH IS WHAT GANON HAS TO DO so even if he gets some good reads and work in he still can't INSURE that his work will amount to something.

Mewtwo is stupid good and has free kills on everyone and they said that combos into Down B is the funniest functional free and easy kill move in the game or something like that.

Lucario is saved by ASC resetting his combo and control motions and things like UpB to continue and end combos when things go not as planned so he's solid and really cool but almost too unique to play a normal smash game with even when not talking about his combos and stuff

Pika they consider possibly the most difficult characters to play in both Melee and PM but not for technical stuff even though he might need more button presses than anyone else it's more because of the intricacies that are possible in decision making of how to position and pace control micro circumstances when you're so quick and options are limited even when you keep your options open and even when he has great options to cover everything regardless of situation they just keep changing so fast in all situations

Jiggs doesn't really have any options that are worth the risk and it was described how the Marth vs Jiggs in Melee is like 90% controlled by Marth and if Jiggs can do good in the 10% she gets then she'll win but everything in PM is like that and it's just to hard to deal with for the most part

Squit is really good but his mix of pushing and comboing doesn't make his punish game or threatening neutral actually mean much since he can't force positional advantages and push them open more even if he gets them since everything is almost like a neutral to him but this still allows him to work well since his neutral is so flexible because of the mix and polarizing nature of this

Ivy has stupid good combos and neutral and edge game but it's almost perfectly mixed for a character like her unlike it is for Squirt given how it's not over powering but still niche and can be often polarizing

Zard has HAIL MARY stuff going for him with a few quick aerials and jab and defensive options in certain places he needs so he's just suffering from coverage which is good given how much he benefits from doing what he wants

Samus was saved by Zair and most of her nerfs and archetype troubles were nullified so she is still good and has a scary presence but is beatable so again like Ivy really well mixed but more polarizing given some things go to waste and some things are a lot better than needed ALSO WHAT IS WITH ICE FSMASH MAKES NO SENSE common agreement we ALL had

ZSS is really scary to be around and we were all really happy with the Down B invincible thing taken out and yeah the character is super flexible in neutral and punish game and it's almost like she can always have the opponent cornered and is impossible to corner with positional stuff

Lucas gets a free grab off any stray hit at any % on any character and a free kill of any grab in any position and a free stray hit off any motion he does and never has to commit to anything so he's good and stuff we all knew that when he showed up in PM.

Ness I thought was amazing but he has a few issues that Mario has with the dangerous areas that unlike Mario I wasn't familiar with since he lacks coverage in different places and until seeing these players against each other thought Ness was so much tougher for the same reasons but without the weak spots but yeah he has all the SUNRISE SURPRISE stuff to make up for not getting much flexibility with beneficial stray hits and having a more option select guessing game

Pit we all love the character and think he's great and the only thing we discussed is how we don't really understand the changes into 3.0 with the more limited Nair and giving him a bigger grab when it was already so good to get grabs and he's not Ganon or anything weird changes

Kirby is still basically gonna end up as a Back Air and Up Tilt heavy character but at least he has some other tools to deal with covering himself in other situations now so he's interesting and a cool character.

MK they were saying the best best against him is to just overpower him with hitboxes and face rush him whenever he does anything just so he can't do his raw DD punish game and HAS to do actions but he's super solid because he forces people to do that kind of thing if they don't wanna get overpowered by him instead.

Dedede is really solid for a big guy but depending on how good his more combo oriented game is his punish game might not be enough to make him more of a threat than half the cast or so

Ike has neutral breaking stuff which is great for a character with no coverage in most offensive and defensive situations so that allows him to play a lot of partial pressure and HAIL MARY stuff while not really NEEDING to since he has the option to break neutral if the PARTIAL pressure is done well.

Marth is still gonna do Marth stuff and he'll be polarizing in a lot of ways because of it even though he'll get powered through often since he can't force certain things out but rather just things in general and he doesn't benefit from HAIL MARY attempts as much as others when he'll end up forcing most games into HAIL MARY fests just like a lot of Melee characters in a lot of situations but it'll be worse for him.

Roy Tilts saved the day and the solidity of stray hits insuring things come from them is already something he benefits from a lot more than others so he doesn't really have much for struggles outside of his coverage not being overly safe if guessing wrong

Olimar has a solid chunk of option selects in neutral and good SUNRISE SURPRISE stuff so that's great and makes up for having a version of what Mario Ness and others have where there are certain places he really doesn't want opponents to be and the game will come down to how well he can force them into bad options just like Falco and all them do just with less flexibility

ROB we all think is really good and he has a cool pacing game where it comes down to being really patient against him with everything from his pressure and recovering that basically means he has limited options but any of those options for or against him make a huge deal so it'll be fun to watch ROB matches playing the patience game with each other when these things are worked out well from both sides in play.

GW I used to think was bad but he has great coverage on offense and defense but a mix between super aggression and super defense against him makes it difficult to deal with since he's so good at crushing mistakes with quick Fairs to the face or getting crushed if he misses a Fair so neutral is weird

Snake has a lot of risk vs reward stuff that makes him a really cool character to have in smash and even if polarizing in a lot of ways he's not polarizing in a way that makes or breaks matchups and any character can adjust to fighting him well enough even when their options get different risks and rewards against him than almost all other characters

Sonic is a beast and always has been and always will be and that's basically all I got from them since it's all just stupid speed stuff but they agreed that 3.0 Sonic is the funnest of the variations for sure


I just wrote this pretty quick while eating and talking so it's a mess but hope it sparks some convo
Also I'm talking to another person today who just came back from out of town actually 2 people I'm gonna try getting bamsy or tenki to come too but I'll come back here with more stuff if I think of anything
Also stage discussion is really important and useful for this thread so keep doing that
Also doubles are fun we're having a Doubles Only tournament on may 25th so that should be fun

Also a lot of this might not make too much sense because 1 these 2 are really weird and don't play much but are better than most because they play the game for learning and other things instead of fun and leisure it's weird
2 because of this they're pretty familiar with a lot of mainstream metagame stuff even when they haven't seen it much and it seems if brought up they basically explained to me how to this day in PM metagames they haven't really seen anyone active play maybe showcase more than 5 to 10 characters even close to optimally
But it's a good reference for seeing the progression of things but it's pretty easy to see what's coming next so metagames and viewing current matches of tournaments is basically just subject matter to see what lies ahead rather than thinking anything about how it's actually good play relative to how that player was playing them last month even or actually showing what characters are capable from someone who basically is still getting their play down from conditioning and experience instead of optimizing or solidifying their play for an end game of their own play or something like that.

Basically it makes sense to me but could be way off or seem totally wrong to people around here or whatever but I thik it is worth posting anyway even though I might be ruining days for people reading it or something

I'llbe back later after talking to them and others again too maybe

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

With regards to Samus, I want to say that losing a powerful kill option in FSmash when switching to Ice is completely bogus. Samus already loses an excellent ledge option in Fire Fair (which ESAM abused brutally in his matches: edgehod to ledge-hop fire fair to downsmash: Whoop, you're offstage again, time to deal with more missiles, up-tilts and Samus shenanigans), good combo options in Fire USmash and Fire DTilt. Her playstyle changes to 'Finisher' mode and taking one of her best kill options away in this mode makes zip sense.

 

[1FD]

Both of them said the only reason they would ever switch to ice is in very unique situations where you're absolutely gonna need the ice Up Smash and otherwise the Ice homing missiles are really fun but otherwise there was like no reason at all to EVER switch to ice when something so good like her Fire moves ALL OF THEM but mostly Fsmash disappeared since they mesh so well with her archetype and she really needs that buffed Fire multihit and combo option stuff in PM just to keep up as if the buffs to her roll and crawling and stuff basically just made her not FALL BEHIND rather than actually make her good. Normalizing someone from niche areas can hurt like giving her a shorter grab and a roll and a long tether just made up for the indirect nerfs to all those areas.

They were also joking how the Ice Foward Smash was like a REALLY REALLY BAD Jab.
That's pretty bad but I like switching to Ice still since it's like a different character sort of

 

[Scuba Steve]

LONG POST RUINING EVERYTHING
So was talking with peeps a lot like I said last page and we went pretty elaborate on stuff about the game from stages to characters to whatever.
They explained their ideas and stuff and each had our own ideas for the Tier List but really weren't far off from each other and after the discussions my idea of it moved even closer to theirs who were both pretty close and didn't change much even though they had different reasons for a lot of things.

More importantly I'm gonna list a bunch of random points about stuff that I think others might overlook or underlook LIKE I DO TOO because I've seen posts about stuff a lot or whatever.
Or just interesting things that I remember talking about character by character.
Lucky me I have ridiculously good and smart players around always getting fresh looks at stuff over time because of their situations and they play smash for really weird reasons in really weird ways that SOMEHOW FOR NO REASON allow them to be good enough without ever playing that they can show up and be TERRIBLE then by the end of the day take a few friendly sets off a top 10 in the world melee player and explain why and how and what happened in stupid precise detail then disappear for a year because they're ***holes

So they have pretty cool outlooks on things DESPITE BEING REALLY BIZARRE
NOTES FROM THIS BRAIN EXPLOSION


Wario I used to think was amazing then NOT SO GOOD but basically the kind of safe pressure he can do just by being present is top of the class and if working mostly towards not getting hit while staying near he benefits greatly by taking his time even when not getting offense just because his presence is solid and abusable with patience.

Mario has trouble with things like what Wario does when people go to places he can't trap them OUT of but he benefits greatly from having what bamsy and tenki called SUNRISE SUPRISES everywhere
Like it's a fresh morning and you get a new stock and are ready to have a good fresh day enjoying the sunrise then SURPRISE Mario goes DOWN THROW INTO PIVOT DOWN SMASH AND YOU'RE OFF STAGE GETTING CAPED and that's the end of your good day

Luigi has WHAT I CALL the stupidest design but it's actually pretty cool in how he benefits more from HAIL MARY stuff than anyone else in the game and can get away with it which this game ultimately comes down to option selection and choices anyway so he breaks standard smash in a way

Peach can waveland from ledges and buffs are cool or whatever but mostly she's amazing because no matter who or what she is fighting she can turn any situation around with quick hard hitboxes or AMOEBA stuff like they described and stuff like Dash Attack and grab combos work on everyone
So even if she's not dominating in neutral she never really gets dominated or even LOSES neutral to almost anyone but a few so the punish she gets sways her favor a lot

Bowser has a beefy problem but his JAB and more highly aggressive play might give him enough of that HAIL MARY factor benefit to keep him going at least in less polarizing matchups and more of the close matchups he can have good chances.

Yoshi makes everything free with easy everything from more speed and range in MARTH STYLE DD GRAB GAMES and more combo damage and finishing that FALCO STYLE COMBO GAMES so they said he might almost be too good but at least has a niche so it's not broken

DK is super simple and not flexible but within that simplicity he's very complex so he's a cool character to have in smash
They also said he's one of the few characters where the top players that people can see with him are actually decent relative to how good the character can be played which is unlike almost all other characters in the game and that's a good showing of his simplicity at the root of his game being his best trait

Diddy is great even without bananas simply with DD GAMES and has always been great even without B MOVES but add that and he'll never be in a bad spot also Nair and Dair were mutually agreed as favorite moves by them

Falcon Side B helps so much with edgeguarding and stuff that it's probably one of the biggest buffs in the game that nobody gives credit too and Falcon Kick is great

Wolf has more ways of finishing people off stray hits than most in the game with ways of leading into Side Bs like Falcon and with a Down Smash like Mario and his flexibility makes him not single tracked so he's super complex

Fox has to play a lot more simple since his flexible stuff isn't as functional so he's like another version of DK

Falco is saved by reflecting projectiles without lag since a lot of his holes are easy to break through and he can't shut down interaction options as universally as he would like

ICs are really easy for almost everyone to separate and their punishment game is almost obsolete when that happens so they have actual stat and attribute issues more than gameplay functioning stuff even if they're neutral is pumped up with tools the tools are still subpar for how bad and easy it can be to solo hard dive AI and fight after.

Zelda is hot

Shiek is cool

Combo them and they're just right but yeah basically Shiek gets clobbered if she's touched and clobbers if she touches others but she has a hard time stalling neutral which is what she needs to do to win neutral. Zelda is kind of the same in needing to nullify neutral and make all interactions scary but she does it differently and they're both pretty close in goodness in the game because of this archetype

Link has a stupid Zair and stupid combos from anything so he's great at making OTHERS have to do stuff which some characters hate like Mario or Bowser from earlier but if characters LIKE doing things and can't do the things they WANT to do when they're FORCED to do things then he does great.

TL is solid and every hit leading to grab isn't as free as older versions but he's better in other areas which basically means he's even MORE solid than solid NOT EVEN ROCKS CAN COMPETE
This was another one like DK where they said the top players that people can watch with TL are closer to playing him optimally than most other characters are.

Ganon has trouble getting things down when he gets people cornered WHICH IS WHAT GANON HAS TO DO so even if he gets some good reads and work in he still can't INSURE that his work will amount to something.

Mewtwo is stupid good and has free kills on everyone and they said that combos into Down B is the funniest functional free and easy kill move in the game or something like that.

Lucario is saved by ASC resetting his combo and control motions and things like UpB to continue and end combos when things go not as planned so he's solid and really cool but almost too unique to play a normal smash game with even when not talking about his combos and stuff

Pika they consider possibly the most difficult characters to play in both Melee and PM but not for technical stuff even though he might need more button presses than anyone else it's more because of the intricacies that are possible in decision making of how to position and pace control micro circumstances when you're so quick and options are limited even when you keep your options open and even when he has great options to cover everything regardless of situation they just keep changing so fast in all situations

Jiggs doesn't really have any options that are worth the risk and it was described how the Marth vs Jiggs in Melee is like 90% controlled by Marth and if Jiggs can do good in the 10% she gets then she'll win but everything in PM is like that and it's just to hard to deal with for the most part

Squit is really good but his mix of pushing and comboing doesn't make his punish game or threatening neutral actually mean much since he can't force positional advantages and push them open more even if he gets them since everything is almost like a neutral to him but this still allows him to work well since his neutral is so flexible because of the mix and polarizing nature of this

Ivy has stupid good combos and neutral and edge game but it's almost perfectly mixed for a character like her unlike it is for Squirt given how it's not over powering but still niche and can be often polarizing

Zard has HAIL MARY stuff going for him with a few quick aerials and jab and defensive options in certain places he needs so he's just suffering from coverage which is good given how much he benefits from doing what he wants

Samus was saved by Zair and most of her nerfs and archetype troubles were nullified so she is still good and has a scary presence but is beatable so again like Ivy really well mixed but more polarizing given some things go to waste and some things are a lot better than needed ALSO WHAT IS WITH ICE FSMASH MAKES NO SENSE common agreement we ALL had

ZSS is really scary to be around and we were all really happy with the Down B invincible thing taken out and yeah the character is super flexible in neutral and punish game and it's almost like she can always have the opponent cornered and is impossible to corner with positional stuff

Lucas gets a free grab off any stray hit at any % on any character and a free kill of any grab in any position and a free stray hit off any motion he does and never has to commit to anything so he's good and stuff we all knew that when he showed up in PM.

Ness I thought was amazing but he has a few issues that Mario has with the dangerous areas that unlike Mario I wasn't familiar with since he lacks coverage in different places and until seeing these players against each other thought Ness was so much tougher for the same reasons but without the weak spots but yeah he has all the SUNRISE SURPRISE stuff to make up for not getting much flexibility with beneficial stray hits and having a more option select guessing game

Pit we all love the character and think he's great and the only thing we discussed is how we don't really understand the changes into 3.0 with the more limited Nair and giving him a bigger grab when it was already so good to get grabs and he's not Ganon or anything weird changes

Kirby is still basically gonna end up as a Back Air and Up Tilt heavy character but at least he has some other tools to deal with covering himself in other situations now so he's interesting and a cool character.

MK they were saying the best best against him is to just overpower him with hitboxes and face rush him whenever he does anything just so he can't do his raw DD punish game and HAS to do actions but he's super solid because he forces people to do that kind of thing if they don't wanna get overpowered by him instead.

Dedede is really solid for a big guy but depending on how good his more combo oriented game is his punish game might not be enough to make him more of a threat than half the cast or so

Ike has neutral breaking stuff which is great for a character with no coverage in most offensive and defensive situations so that allows him to play a lot of partial pressure and HAIL MARY stuff while not really NEEDING to since he has the option to break neutral if the PARTIAL pressure is done well.

Marth is still gonna do Marth stuff and he'll be polarizing in a lot of ways because of it even though he'll get powered through often since he can't force certain things out but rather just things in general and he doesn't benefit from HAIL MARY attempts as much as others when he'll end up forcing most games into HAIL MARY fests just like a lot of Melee characters in a lot of situations but it'll be worse for him.

Roy Tilts saved the day and the solidity of stray hits insuring things come from them is already something he benefits from a lot more than others so he doesn't really have much for struggles outside of his coverage not being overly safe if guessing wrong

Olimar has a solid chunk of option selects in neutral and good SUNRISE SURPRISE stuff so that's great and makes up for having a version of what Mario Ness and others have where there are certain places he really doesn't want opponents to be and the game will come down to how well he can force them into bad options just like Falco and all them do just with less flexibility

ROB we all think is really good and he has a cool pacing game where it comes down to being really patient against him with everything from his pressure and recovering that basically means he has limited options but any of those options for or against him make a huge deal so it'll be fun to watch ROB matches playing the patience game with each other when these things are worked out well from both sides in play.

GW I used to think was bad but he has great coverage on offense and defense but a mix between super aggression and super defense against him makes it difficult to deal with since he's so good at crushing mistakes with quick Fairs to the face or getting crushed if he misses a Fair so neutral is weird

Snake has a lot of risk vs reward stuff that makes him a really cool character to have in smash and even if polarizing in a lot of ways he's not polarizing in a way that makes or breaks matchups and any character can adjust to fighting him well enough even when their options get different risks and rewards against him than almost all other characters

Sonic is a beast and always has been and always will be and that's basically all I got from them since it's all just stupid speed stuff but they agreed that 3.0 Sonic is the funnest of the variations for sure


I just wrote this pretty quick while eating and talking so it's a mess but hope it sparks some convo
Also I'm talking to another person today who just came back from out of town actually 2 people I'm gonna try getting bamsy or tenki to come too but I'll come back here with more stuff if I think of anything
Also stage discussion is really important and useful for this thread so keep doing that
Also doubles are fun we're having a Doubles Only tournament on may 25th so that should be fun

Also a lot of this might not make too much sense because 1 these 2 are really weird and don't play much but are better than most because they play the game for learning and other things instead of fun and leisure it's weird
2 because of this they're pretty familiar with a lot of mainstream metagame stuff even when they haven't seen it much and it seems if brought up they basically explained to me how to this day in PM metagames they haven't really seen anyone active play maybe showcase more than 5 to 10 characters even close to optimally
But it's a good reference for seeing the progression of things but it's pretty easy to see what's coming next so metagames and viewing current matches of tournaments is basically just subject matter to see what lies ahead rather than thinking anything about how it's actually good play relative to how that player was playing them last month even or actually showing what characters are capable from someone who basically is still getting their play down from conditioning and experience instead of optimizing or solidifying their play for an end game of their own play or something like that.

Basically it makes sense to me but could be way off or seem totally wrong to people around here or whatever but I thik it is worth posting anyway even though I might be ruining days for people reading it or something

I'llbe back later after talking to them and others again too maybe

Ain't no ****in' way I'm reading all that

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Both of them said the only reason they would ever switch to ice is in very unique situations where you're absolutely gonna need the ice Up Smash and otherwise the Ice homing missiles are really fun but otherwise there was like no reason at all to EVER switch to ice when something so good like her Fire moves ALL OF THEM but mostly Fsmash disappeared since they mesh so well with her archetype and she really needs that buffed Fire multihit and combo option stuff in PM just to keep up as if the buffs to her roll and crawling and stuff basically just made her not FALL BEHIND rather than actually make her good. Normalizing someone from niche areas can hurt like giving her a shorter grab and a roll and a long tether just made up for the indirect nerfs to all those areas.

They were also joking how the Ice Foward Smash was like a REALLY REALLY BAD Jab.
That's pretty bad but I like switching to Ice still since it's like a different character sort of

Ehhh ... I disagree. Melee Samus was always top-tier material, with an incredibly solid playstyle and a few really good moves. Held back by massive, gaping design holes that the PMBR fixed up, and then added to (FSmash range buff, the brawl techs and ice mode besides Not Really An FSmash). Samus isn't just 'not bad', she's good. Real good.

 

[1FD]

What GAPING HOLES are you talking about that 1 were there and 2 were fixed up?
She has her thing and archetype fitting well together but are you maybe talking about holes in her punish game that Fair and USmash open up for long combo strings or what?
She's good yeah but she's still got the same strengths and gameplan to pull out nothing was really said about her being bad.
Things like Zair and Roll and stuff cover the options she lost for those roles AND THEN SOME so of course she's better than Melee even with the things that changed a lot.
Kind of what over that but I'm still confused about what the gaping holes that were covered that you're talking about.

Oh maybe you were disagreeing with the NEVER CHANGING INTO ICE thing which I can accept disagreement.
Fire is better as far as I'm concerned.

I think you were actually disagreeing with me saying she was bad or something since you just argued that she's good but kind of went over what I already did so I think you misread something if that's what you were thinking
Or maybe about how the normalizing of niche characters can hurt a character which totally can and I don't know why you would disagree with that unless that's misunderstood too.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

So whats going on with the grab tier list? Is lucas or DDD top grabs?

 

[Player -0]

So whats going on with the grab tier list? Is lucas or DDD top grabs?

You talking about grab range or what people get off grabs?