Tier List Speculation

[trash?]

gentle reminder that chu happened to also make kirby look good in brawl. remember that character, currently in the D-tiers? chu made people think he was top tier at first

he does these things. hell, the only reason people went hard into ICs in melee before wobbling was discovered and their goodness had a guarantee was because chu dat was just so damned good

 

[Oro?!]

You know you could just give her an actual grab ...

Maybe?

Pwease?

Nope. I didn't like it when we tried,

 

[Nguz95]

That's interesting. Do you feel the tether's range is significant enough to offset the benefits a shorter grab would yield?

 

[Giygacoal]

I guess working with the unique grab is pretty cool.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

I don't think it's really that shocking. Kirby was super good in Smash 64 before being nerfed into uselessness in Melee. In PM, everything that was terrible about him has been undone (no more escapable throws, no more horrible dash attack, attacks do actual damage again, etc), and he's actually gotten some nice buffs too, like drastically faster Down B and his new Cutter Dash. Basically he's just really well-rounded and powerful now. He's also got one of the scariest gimp games around because he can go super deep for those kills and not really have to worry about not making it back, and that's pretty important in this game now that recoveries are so much better.

And yes, if you're not convinced yet, just watch Chu destroy some people with him. Sure, Chu is too good in general, but it still gives you a feel for how good some of Kirby's tools are.



The difference between the bottom of one tier and the top of the next isn't too much. Apart from Jiggs and the ICs, the game is pretty decently balanced overall. Very few matches feel really lopsided, though some matchup + stage combinations are clearly bad.



Honestly it's almost impossible to know how to order that tier. Those characters all have issues which give them some bad matchups but it's all going to come down to the tier placement of the people who beat them. I do think Ganon could potentially be better than Falcon though, for the simple reason that Ganon got buffs from Melee while Falcon didn't.

Just because a character got buffed doesnt make them the top of the tiers, and neither does just one good player (chu) showing the potential. Yes these things reveal that the character isnt bad and has potential, but Ganon Yoshi and Bowser got plenty buffs but are still considered lower tier. Some believe that they are better, but the general consensus is not as good as the upper tier characters if you compare them to each other. Anyway, I do agree that Kirby is really good and has a variety of tools, but I wouldnt say that the character has the placement of the highest tier, unless more players are able to show the ability.


Besides that I have made a lot of progress on tournament analysis and nearly 50 people have responded to the survey, if you havent taken the community speculation tier list survey yet please click on the link in my signature!

 

[MLGF]

Yoshi is bad?
He's literally one of the biggest sleepers in the game and that's actually a pretty normal consensus.
Unless something changed as of recent and I'm in some wacky dream world.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

You aint dreamin. People thought he was a bigger sleeper when 3.0 first came out, his value has gone down since then but ya, he is still a sleeper. I wouldnt say top 15 though, he is at most mid high I think.

 

[Plum]

I don't think it's appropriate to place a character based on speculation on what they may be capable of. Yoshi might be capable of truly great things, but unless we actually have people proving it he's probably going to be placed relatively low.

 

[trash?]

yoshi's biggest problems is that some things that are supposed to give him that high skill ceiling just... aren't there. no proper parries mean none of the shield game that gave him unorthodox neutral in melee, that's a big deal

 

[Ali Baba 177]

I don't think it's appropriate to place a character based on speculation on what they may be capable of. Yoshi might be capable of truly great things, but unless we actually have people proving it he's probably going to be placed relatively low.

Thats where the problem comes in, some consider the speculation about characters total potential in the future while others think about characters current ability, so I end up switching up and getting confused with how I personally consider characters lol.

 

[kaizo13]

about Jiggs in P:M

We can all agree that Jiggs is currently bottom tier...but personally i think it would be best if she remained relatively the same.

i've always felt that Jiggs as a character was going to be prominent to development and overall balance because of her playstyle and simplicity. And it does indeed show, seeing her go from high tier in Melee to bottom tier PM.

to keep it short, Jiggs is not a bad character...she just got stripped of all her strenghts. I would much rather see Jiggs regain her viability through indirect buffs than her getting more disjointed hitboxes or a notable weight increase.

And yes, by indirect buffs i'm mostly talking about the recoveries in this game...but also many other aspects of characters that shouldn't be as efficient as they are (Lucas, Pit, Mario, Link, Zelda etc..)

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I agree, but is it really fair to ask for buffs so soon, when so few people even explored the character?
Then again, if a new grab is really all it takes... holy ****.

I was mostly kidding.

ZSS would no doubt benefit tremendously from swapping grabs with Sheik, but she doesn't really need it.

 

[Giygacoal]

For Jiggs I think something like a more useful Sing would be sufficient.

 

[Scuba Steve]

For Jiggs I think something like a more useful Sing would be sufficient.

Already been suggested and shot down.

 

[Apollo Ali]

ZSS is probably around the 20-25~ range out of a cast of 41. She has extremely good traits, but for the most part her moves are really fair and to top it off she doesn't have a reliable grab. If she had A grab like Sheik or Marth, she would likely be a top 5 character. That's all it takes when you have the tools she does. Too bad there are Swords, Spacies, Boomerangs, and Teleports galore in this game.

This is actually really fair. Her tools are excellent, but not overwhelming and the grab really holds her back.

I think I thought she was better than she is because I'm horrible at falling for grab mixups

 

[Terotrous]

gentle reminder that chu happened to also make kirby look good in brawl. remember that character, currently in the D-tiers? chu made people think he was top tier at first

he does these things. hell, the only reason people went hard into ICs in melee before wobbling was discovered and their goodness had a guarantee was because chu dat was just so damned good

I don't in any way doubt how skilled he is as a player, but Kirby is still Kirby. For him to do those amazing things means Kirby has to have that potential in his toolset. What you're basically seeing is what Kirby looks like when played at a high level, and there's clearly a lot of really good tools there.

The gimping potential alone is probably high tier in this game. Coming back to the stage vs Kirby is just a nightmare for most characters. If he's willing to trade a stock to kill you, you're probably not coming back.

Just because a character got buffed doesnt make them the top of the tiers, and neither does just one good player (chu) showing the potential. Yes these things reveal that the character isnt bad and has potential, but Ganon Yoshi and Bowser got plenty buffs but are still considered lower tier.

It's not just the buffs, it's about the character design. In Smash 64, Kirby was an extremely complete character. He had good kill power, good combos, his specials were useful, and his offstage game and recovery were top notch. In Melee, he was given a ton of weaknesses to offset his power, but they've basically all been removed in PM, returning him to his extremely versatile and strong status from the first game. On the other hand, in every game they've been in, Ganon, Yoshi, and Bowser have suffered from some significant drawbacks in addition to their strengths (Ganon and Bowser are really slow and lack safe offense, Bowser is a massive combo target, and Yoshi has no third jump and some weird shield mechanics). Ganon and Bowser got better in some ways, but their weaknesses weren't really removed, so they're still a bit on the lower end of things. Yoshi DID get one of his weaknesses fixed (he can now jump OOS like everyone else), so he has moved up some, and might move up more, but he's still not quite the complete package that Kirby is.

In general, there seems to be a pattern that the best characters in this game are characters who are just good all around and have no significant drawbacks, except for Fox, who is great at everything but recovery but his everything else is so great it doesn't really matter.

Yoshi is bad?
He's literally one of the biggest sleepers in the game and that's actually a pretty normal consensus.
Unless something changed as of recent and I'm in some wacky dream world.

Lower end of mid isn't what I'd call bad. The main thing preventing him from moving up right now is the lack of tournament results.

about Jiggs in P:M

We can all agree that Jiggs is currently bottom tier...but personally i think it would be best if she remained relatively the same.

Yeah, Jiggs is hard to fix. But as long as we all agree that she needs work I'm sure the PMBR will come up with something.

 

[Oro?!]

This is actually really fair. Her tools are excellent, but not overwhelming and the grab really holds her back.

I think I thought she was better than she is because I'm horrible at falling for grab mixups

The only reliable method of getting grabs is from DSmash. I see a lot of people fall for ZSS just lasering and running in behind with a JC grab. That should honestly never work haha.

 

[Apollo Ali]

The only reliable method of getting grabs is from DSmash. I see a lot of people fall for ZSS just lasering and running in behind with a JC grab. That should honestly never work haha.

Yeah I have an easier time versus Numerics when i realize this lol

 

[mimgrim]

If I had to pick top 5 characters for PM, I think I would go with, in no particular order, .

But my opinion is probably bad and should probably be ignored. So feel free to ignore it.

:L

 

[Paradoxium]

As long as you have Fox in the #1 spot, people will think your opinions are good

 

[mimgrim]

As long as you have Fox in the #1 spot, people will think your opinions are good

About that.

If I had to think about the order of them I think it would be something like this;







:L

 

[Deleted member]

FOX ISN'T #1 IN SOMEONE'S OPINION?!?!
BUFF FOX. HE MUST ALWAYS BE THE BEST CHARACTER IN PM.

please don't take seriously

 

[DMG]

IT HAS BEEN WILLED, THE BUFFING OF FOX SHALL COMMENCE!

 

[1FD]

Well then screw fox I'm going with this left to right top to bottom

​

I just kind of copied and did some adjustments to SUPER QUICKLY THROWN TOGETHER FROM

 

[woundedust]

oro I've played a zero suit and it took one time to figure out her laser is ass. And grab is so punishable too.

It f smash tho....

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Did someone say Fox buffs

Don't make me post my superspacy moveset

 

[NickRiddle]

I don't understand how people still think Fox is the best.
That idea is just really silly.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I don't understand how people still think Fox is the best.
That idea is just really silly.

You've said stuff like that a couple times

Could you indulge us and explain your reasoning?

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Someone has to be the top. And its either or

possibly

 

[woundedust]

Why i personally dont think fox is the best...

Fast faller, and although it helps his combo game, there are more floaty characters than not and his combo game is hurt from this. Hes comboed easily by about 80% of cast, easier to edge guard due to increased edge guard abilities by all characters

Wave shine isnt nearly as prevelant except against characters like ganon/peach meaning he doesnt get infinite free percent

The different engine gives changed h enough to notice. We seen where hax switched and you cant do fix stuff from melee in pm any more.

More characters can deal with hus many different play styles. Where a fox like to run away and laser you have characters that can stay in his face and create pressure. An aggresive fox has the ability to get grabbed and a serious amount of damage put on from one punish due to insane juggling/ combo game. Look at his match up in melee v. Marth. Marth poops on fox once he gets a solid hit in. Now there are 10-15 marth esque match ups fox has, and they arent free anymore.

What makes fox good is that gah like neutral. The damned shine. And an up smash that kills at stupid low percents.

 

[mimgrim]

Fox is still ridiculously good. But he also has heck of a lot more competition now and I feel the few weaknesses he does have are far more glaring. I might even put Wolf as better then him in all honesty.

But I do honestly see Pit as the best character in the game. His projectile is pretty insane and can be used a zoning tool, edge guarding tool, and combo tool. He has really good combos and can get into them easily. His D-throw always leads into something. His recovery isn't garbage. And he fall and weight combination doesn't make him the ideal character to get combo'd easily. And though his neutral game may not be quite as good as Fox's, or any of the Spacies, but then again who is, it's still solid. He really doesn't seem to have many downsides and a lot of strengths to him.

But what do I know. :L

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Even if USmash isn't the most egregious thing about Fox, moves of comparable power involve a more commitment. Link Dair, for example. Mario Fair is about as safe as Fox Usmash but harder to space. And of course neither can be done while running, which is kind of huge when putting hitboxes easily in places you want them to be. Even Falco FSmash is slower and can't be done as easily.

The move is just silly. 2.6 Ivy Bair silly.

 

[NickRiddle]

You've said stuff like that a couple times

Could you indulge us and explain your reasoning?

More characters mess him up, and Brawl mechanics help other characters way more than him.
It's easier to gimp him because other characters have better recoveries.
It's easier to camp him because other characters have better projectiles.
It's easier to combo him because other characters have better combo games.

I just don't feel like he's that good.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

More characters mess him up, and Brawl mechanics help other characters way more than him.
It's easier to gimp him because other characters have better recoveries.
It's easier to camp him because other characters have better projectiles.
It's easier to combo him because other characters have better combo games.

I just don't feel like he's that good.

Agreed on all points.

Thing is doe his combo game/gimp game isn't significanlty worse and his neutral is still his neutral. He can die off a single grab to 20 characters but if he consistently kills them first it doesn't matter very much. Sort of how he doesn't lose the ICs match-up if Wobbling is legal.

 

[Paradoxium]

Finally, other people who believe Fox isn't the best in the game. I thought i was alone for a long time.

 

[1FD]

This game still comes down to choices and if I choose one option you choose another and mine wins then it's a stock given literally every character but maybe like 4 or 5 in the game can guarantee a stock off a hit on most other characters whether it's through straight up combos to death or to set up good positioning that will eventually be the stock or edge guard set up to finish from there.
In Melee it didn't matter if Kirby chose right since it wouldn't mean anything and the same goes for everyone from Roy to Zelda to whatever
But now everybody clobbers as hard as Melee Sheik Grabs and can break neutral as hard as a Melee Peach Dash Attacks and can have presence as hard as a Melee Marth DDs and hold space as hard as a Melee Falco Lasers and kill as hard as a Melee Falcon Knees and be hard as Melee Fox to cover and has sunrises surprises as hard as Melee Jiggs
So basically everybody is like the Melee top tier combined into DEATH BALLS

 

[NickRiddle]

Agreed on all points.

Thing is doe his combo game/gimp game isn't significanlty worse and his neutral is still his neutral. He can die off a single grab to 20 characters but if he consistently kills them first it doesn't matter very much. Sort of how he doesn't lose the ICs match-up if Wobbling is legal.

His combo/gimp game is a little worse, and his camp game is worse.
That, to me, is all it takes for Fox to not be as good, considering I believe a large portion of the cast has 0%-80%+ combos on Fox that aren't that hard.

 

[Player -0]

His combo/gimp game is a little worse, and his camp game is worse.
That, to me, is all it takes for Fox to not be as good, considering I believe a large portion of the cast has 0%-80%+ combos on Fox that aren't that hard.

Sayyy whattt?

My Link Dash Attack -> Dash Attack -> Dash Attack -> Spin Spike be super hard yo.


I have dubbed it the Spin Spike and such it shall be.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

By all rights, it should actually be hard.

Someone tell me that Link can't actually chain three dash attacks on fast-fallers with good DI.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Finally, other people who believe Fox isn't the best in the game. Iam 4EVERalone for a long time.

Lolz