Tier List Speculation

[metroid1117]

Wavedash Wednesdays has started streaming, if you're bored.

 

[jtm94]

Why is it that characters get dubbed as "offense based" and get regarded with crappy tech rolls? Such as Captain Falcon, Toon Link, and Squirtle.

I feel like Toon Link and Squirtle could move up tiers for free if their tech rolls weren't garbage, and then offense based characters like Fox, Falco, Marth, and the rest of the cast have very good or par tech rolls at worst. It's just weird that they get stuck with this arbitrary burden. Squirtle's is so bad you can just react to his tech and walk to where he is going, Marth is an absolute nightmare for Squirtle for that reason mainly.

 

[HaZarD2kv]

jtm94, They have the worst tech rolls ever, I just hate getting thrown or knocked to the ground with any of those characters. It is a tech chase nightmare. EVen C. Falcons tech roll in melee is better than that.

 

[B.W.]

Man after Olimar, T.Link's tech roll seems amazing. Pretty sure Squirtle has a worse tech roll than Olimar though.

****ty tech rolls are the worst.

 

[GP&B]

I'm actually curious about the design philosophy behind such huge variance in tech roll lengths, especially the implications of them and why they're given to certain characters.

 

[SixSaw]

Having a ****ty spot dodge is up there too.

Wario suffers from both.

 

[Strong Badam]

what? wario's spotdodge is pretty good. his shield rolls are awful though

 

[SixSaw]

At 32 frames it's one of the longest in the game and while it has a slightly longer than average intangibility window I don't really think that enhances its usefulness as a spotdodge much or justify the similarly above average endlag.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think ROB's shield rolls are worse.

 

[Mera Mera]

I think tech rolls should be worse cause the worse they are the better my character is

Kinda wish Sheik's tech rolls were a little worse for real honestly. Not sure if her tech rolls are the best, but of the characters I play against often they definitely stick out. (Are they the best? Mewtwo's seem absurd but you could probs memorize the animation for each roll so you can react to that instead of him moving...)

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think tech rolls should be worse cause the worse they are the better my character is

Kinda wish Sheik's tech rolls were a little worse for real honestly. Not sure if her tech rolls are the best, but of the characters I play against often they definitely stick out. (Are they the best? Mewtwo's seem absurd but you could probs memorize the animation for each roll so you can react to that instead of him moving...)

I am pretty sure that all tech rolls and standing techs are the same.

Get up rolls however...

 

[Strong Badam]

He means their distance, not their invincibility durations.

Pikachu's tech-in-place is better than everyone else's as well.

 

[Mera Mera]

I am pretty sure that all tech rolls and standing techs are the same.

Get up rolls however...

Tech rolls definitely vary in distance traveled. Check out Sheik and Mewtwo and then compare them to the garbage tech rolls of C Falcon. Not even close to the same.

Edit: as Strong Bad said, I'm talking about distance. Although I think the tech rolls vary in duration a little(?)

 

[SixSaw]

I am pretty sure that all tech rolls and standing techs are the same.

Get up rolls however...

All three are different actually.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

oh, well in distance yeah that's PRETTY obvious

He means their distance, not their invincibility durations.

Pikachu's tech-in-place is better than everyone else's as well.

Unless I'm missing something it seems to be worse than everyone elses by like 1 frame.

What am I missing

help strong bad

 

[Mera Mera]

oh, well in distance yeah that's PRETTY obvious


Unless I'm missing something it seems to be worse than everyone elses by like 1 frame.

What am I missing

help strong bad

This is from Melee (found in a Magus post) but:

Tech-Neutral

Total: 26
Invincible:
1-20 - [Everyone Else]
1-24 - Pichu, Pikachu

Also I looked it up in Melee and all of the tech rolls I looked at are 40 frames long and invincible at frames 1-20, so probably only the distance is different unless I overlooked someone in Melee and/or unless PM changed it up.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I have it open right now and Pikachu's standing tech goes for 1-20 with intangibility and goes for a total of 26 frames while Mewtwo's standing tech is like, 25 frames total.

 

[jtm94]

There is no way Squirtle's isn't slower than Sheik's, I can't even fathom. I really feel like the characters are limited by their really bad tech rolls. I don't remember Olimar's being nearly as bad as Squirtle's and Toon Link's feel, but maybe I didn't face a grabby character while using Olimar.

I don't play Squirtle super seriously, but I know he deserves a better tech roll than he has. I can't say the same for Toon Link, maybe some hidden reason for his being kinda bad, but idk.

I like fast spot dodges personally, I rate spot dodges on speed, not how long they last. End lag is also a factor, it can take a while but if you can act fast I don't mind it.

 

[didds]

Squirtle's tech is so crap it's painful sometimes.

I get that he's hard to catch and all, but I really don't think he's so amazing offensively that he can afford the crap tech.

He dies in three to four good hits.

One good read and then it's pathetic. Tech chasing squirtle is about as difficult as techchasing an actual turtle.

But let's hold that thought, I probably just need to get better.

 

[DrinkingFood]

in all seriousness

GANON:
he can store warlock punch, charging throught the start up, l cancel store, then release.

how can you say that with a straight face
this isn't brawl minus

 

[MLGF]

Ganondorf just needs some sort of armor on his dash attack and maybe his FAir.
Not much else TBH.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Ganondorf just needs some sort of armor on his dash attack and maybe his FAir.
Not much else TBH.

Armor is the lamest possible solution.

 

[MLGF]

Ganondorf is meant to be a more punish heavy character compared to Falcon.
So... armor fits his design a lot better then dumb **** like holding a warlock punch?

I'm not saying I know the be all, end all for Ganondorf. I'm just thinking of what buffs compliment his design already present.

 

[Radical Larry]

Ganondorf could have armor and types on these portions:

Head: None
Chest: Strong Armor
Upper Arms: None
Lower Arms: Light Armor
Hands: Light Armor
Belly: Light Armor
Waist: Light Armor
Thighs: None
Knee Down: Strong Armor

Re-arrange the hitboxes a bit to fit these and P:M would have a better Ganondorf. But this is just an idea or concept that could fit Ganondorf and make him a better character.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Ganondorf is meant to be a more punish heavy character compared to Falcon.
So... armor fits his design a lot better then dumb **** like holding a warlock punch?

I'm not saying I know the be all, end all for Ganondorf. I'm just thinking of what buffs compliment his design already present.

I hate the idea of "Heavy character sucks? Just give him armor on everything!" It just seems like a lazy way to go about balancing the character. I think the decision to give Bowser armor on so many of his moves is justified just because he's so stupidly huge, but I really don't want Ganon to be buffed by just giving him armor. I think buffs that would be best for Ganon would be very minor ones like making his grab reach slightly lower. It's just dumb how often you can whiff grabs with Ganon's already pathetically short grab range because of animations on some characters that put them lower to the ground (looking at you, Mario's dash attack). Armor on Ganon wouldn't feel rewarding and I feel would just generally make him more thoughtless to play.

Holding a warlock punch is dumb, I'm not trying to argue that lol.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Ganondorf could have armor and types on these portions:

Head: None
Chest: Strong Armor
Upper Arms: None
Lower Arms: Light Armor
Hands: Light Armor
Belly: Light Armor
Waist: Light Armor
Thighs: None
Knee Down: Strong Armor

Re-arrange the hitboxes a bit to fit these and P:M would have a better Ganondorf. But this is just an idea or concept that could fit Ganondorf and make him a better character.

that is really not necessary
why would you want something so awkward and complicated
this isn't ****ing call of duty we don't need location damage

 

[Radical Larry]

that is really not necessary
why would you want something so awkward and complicated
this isn't ****ing call of duty we don't need location damage

Well, it would give Ganondorf uniqueness and a use for his armor in the game.

 

[DrinkingFood]

uniqueness for the sake of being unique isn't a valid design concept by itself.
The armor is a part of his character design. Giving characters almost randomly placed armor isn't a good solution in a game where you rarely have the freedom to choose which of your opponents hurtbox you hit.
If the armor were to be included as part of his gameplay design, it would make the most sense in terms of gameplay for it to apply to his whole body.

 

[Radical Larry]

If it were his whole body, then it would need to be light armor on the bottom, and strong armor on the top.

 

[Scuba Steve]

Ganondorf could have armor and types on these portions:

Head: None
Chest: Strong Armor
Upper Arms: None
Lower Arms: Light Armor
Hands: Light Armor
Belly: Light Armor
Waist: Light Armor
Thighs: None
Knee Down: Strong Armor

Re-arrange the hitboxes a bit to fit these and P:M would have a better Ganondorf. But this is just an idea or concept that could fit Ganondorf and make him a better character.

This is seriously one of the worst suggestions I think I've seen on these boards in a while. I'm actually laughing pretty hard at the sheer absurdity of this suggestion.

 

[Radical Larry]

But then again, you always have to look above for more responses about this.
My suggestion now is that he has Strong Armor on the top half and Light Armor on the bottom half.

 

[didds]

Radical Larry with them radical ideas.

Really though, lower grab, slightly faster run speed, quicker jump squat.

I literally don't touch Ganon, but I just thought these are more practical adjustments that could go a long way. Or not.

 

[MLGF]

I hate the idea of "Heavy character sucks? Just give him armor on everything!" It just seems like a lazy way to go about balancing the character. I think the decision to give Bowser armor on so many of his moves is justified just because he's so stupidly huge, but I really don't want Ganon to be buffed by just giving him armor. I think buffs that would be best for Ganon would be very minor ones like making his grab reach slightly lower. It's just dumb how often you can whiff grabs with Ganon's already pathetically short grab range because of animations on some characters that put them lower to the ground (looking at you, Mario's dash attack). Armor on Ganon wouldn't feel rewarding and I feel would just generally make him more thoughtless to play.

Holding a warlock punch is dumb, I'm not trying to argue that lol.

I agree on Ganondorf's grab needing a change and I understand your viewpoint. I just think Ganondorf just needs more safe options while retaining his current playstyle, and super frames do that.
If you disagree, I see your point. It's just my idea is all.

 

[didds]

What about something like naryu's love or whatever zelda's reflecting move is. Give him a get out of my face move that could also help with projectile spam.

Then again I don't know how dearly warlock punch is held on to.

I really haven't the faintest idea on how to help Ganon, I'm really reachin

 

[1FD]

INSTANT DOUBLE SEX KICK NAIR
1 FRAME RELEASE
LAST FOREVER WITH 2 HITS
DO IT
AERIAL SIDE-B LEADING INTO INSTANT NAIR 2 HIT COMBOS PLZ

 

[Strong Badam]

you can't have armor on different body parts, it's an all or nothing deal.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wario's spotdodge does leave a lot to be desired.

 

[B.W.]

One of my friends a while ago said Ganondorf should have Luthor armor.

Luther armor being, for those who haven't played Injustice, armor he can activate that absorbs any one hit regardless of what action he's doing. He said it could work like Lucas charge. Food for thought I guess.

Honestly I think Ganondorf would be fine with some safer attacks, and maybe some attacks that make him a scary character to shield against, whether they do more shield damage or are safer on shield.

 

[Juushichi]

Ganon already has a move that beats shield.

I don't want to live in a world where Wario's spotdodge is good ever again. @ TheReflexWonder

 

[HaZarD2kv]

Reflex! Save Squirtle's terrible rolls from the ground.