Tier List Speculation

[Strong Badam]

Ganon already has a move that beats shield.

I don't want to live in a world where Wario's spotdodge is good ever again. @ TheReflexWonder

coming soon to a local near you

 

[Kati]

I agree on Ganondorf's grab needing a change and I understand your viewpoint. I just think Ganondorf just needs more safe options while retaining his current playstyle, and super frames do that.
If you disagree, I see your point. It's just my idea is all.

Hopefully pm playtesters have been given the chance to test a larger grab range by now. The result was janky, but a few years ago I switched Ganon's grab animation with his brawl jab and it looked like it could be implemented properly by someone who actually knew what they were doing.

 

[Deleted member]

I disagree with adding armor to any character to fix them
adding armor to bowser was a lazy way to fix him IMO, it shouldn't be done to any other characters. We have nearly 41 well designed characters (KEY WORD IS NEARLY, SOME ARE STUPID), we can make some more.

 

[jtm94]

I'm still on the fix terribad tech train.

Do not ever add armor to Ganon. ESPECIALLY his fair. You can play Ganon and crush people faster than anything, I really don't think he's nearly as bad as in Melee. His recovery is completely exploitable though, and he can be comboed, such is the life of a bigger character. His nair autocancel is a pretty nice addition to him though and I like it.

 

[Ripple]

nair autocancelled in melee. it's not new

 

[mYzeALot]

Does anyone have a list of all the characters in the game who have aerials that can be auto-canceled, and what moves?

 

[PsionicSabreur]

So at it's base intent, would it be fair to say armor is a way to give slow characters decent effective-frame quickness for trades and dealing with pressure, while still maintaining a slow "feel" for both the user and the person trying to dodge? I don't want to presume anything about design decisions, of course, but I think the process leading to armor implementation is probably more justified than is oft mentioned.
Bowser has a lot of powerful moves with good utility, and I'd just assumed that it was decided he still needed those moves, but also something that dealt with his crippling weaknesses. That is, a way to deal with them other than whirling fortress. You can then add a(nother) specifically designed move to do this or pick something a little more cohesive. Having armor on several moves prevents Bowser play from becoming repetitive and not relying on one or two moves to fulfill all defensive needs (we've already seen how that turns out from Melee).
I get that there are other parts of it (namely vulnerability to grabs, trading a "limited" resource to use it) that make it not exactly like that in practice, but what exactly makes it lazy and/or stupid?

 

[Soft Serve]

I'm so down on the fixing tech-rolls train

I've always thought it was stupid that Falco's tech rolls were top-tier distance in Melee, and is what make Falco that much harder to tech chace than Fox for characters like Shiek. We don't really have a precedent for offensive characters having bad tech rolls, unless you want to count Falcon (who has explosive combos but not the greatest offensive game imo).

Characters like GnW and Squirtle could use faster/less obvious tech rolls imo.

 

[mYzeALot]

Is there a list of tech roll distances in either Project M or melee? And were any of the tech rolls on melee characters drastically changed when imported to PM?

 

[Soft Serve]

Is there a list of tech roll distances in either Project M or melee? And were any of the tech rolls on melee characters drastically changed when imported to PM?

This is one for Melee that I had Bookmarked http://smashboards.com/threads/detailed-throws-techs-and-getups-frame-data.206469/
don't know where a PM one is.

 

[SixSaw]

Does anyone have a list of all the characters in the game who have aerials that can be auto-canceled, and what moves?

Almost every aerial can be auto-canceled. Most of them just aren't convenient or useful enough to be worth going for.

 

[1FD]

Did @MachGO! make something for that techroll stuff? I lurk lots before joining boards WHAT I DONT CARE

 

[Cuccu Maestro]

As a Diddy main I'd just like to say that I definitely have a super hard time against Rob. Something about the aerial angle he can fly at you with hitboxes out so quickly from so far away makes him very very difficult to get the room you need to breathe against.

 

[NWRL]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkYYYew8CUI

This should play whenever Ike wins, only buff he needs.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkYYYew8CUI

This should play whenever Ike wins, only buff he needs.

> Not a Radiant Dawn track

Out

 

[Saproling]

> Not a Radiant Dawn track

Out

>green texting

Out

 

[DrinkingFood]

<le maymay arrows :^)

 

[NWRL]

> Not a Radiant Dawn track

Out

I hate epic pointers but

>Not knowing Berserk

Out

 

[Spralwers]

The important difference in Ganon's nair between melee and PM is the active frames. In melee, both kicks are only active for two frames. In PM, the kicks are active for six. They're basically sex kicks now and even the weaker part still does seven damage. It's a pretty nice buff and combined with the auto cancel window, makes for an actually useful move in any match up.

 

[Oro?!]

It's a pretty useful move for sucking people into Vortexes I hear.

 

[Kati]

As a Diddy main I'd just like to say that I definitely have a super hard time against Rob. Something about the aerial angle he can fly at you with hitboxes out so quickly from so far away makes him very very difficult to get the room you need to breathe against.

I feel your pain.

The important difference in Ganon's nair between melee and PM is the active frames. In melee, both kicks are only active for two frames. In PM, the kicks are active for six. They're basically sex kicks now and even the weaker part still does seven damage. It's a pretty nice buff and combined with the auto cancel window, makes for an actually useful move in any match up.

Ganon has an aerial that can do only 7%? blasphemy.

 

[Spralwers]

You would be the one to know, since you are in the region of its origin. You must have seen it... or worse

 

[HaZarD2kv]

WHAT DO WE WANT? BETTER TECH ROLLS


WHEN DO WE WANT IT?!?!?!? At the most convenient time for you good developers, thank you.

 

[Alondite]

So I was thinking of ways to potentially improve Ganon and keep his design true to Zelda fiction. Now, some of these ideas might work better in theory than in practice, and the fine details would have to be tweaked through playtesting, but at least it's something.

First, I was considering how to make his nB actually useful without compromising it.The main issue is that you just can't hit anything with it, so I was thinking of ways to make it easier to land a hit. The best thing I could come up with is to give the punch some forward momentum. That is, when Ganon actually unleashes the punch, it launches him forward some and the punch hitbox stays open. Ganon's already a heavy punish character who has a solid techchase game, so I felt that this worked with his overall design. It would have the same effect when used in the air, but would be affected by gravity and Ganon would decrease in height as he punches, smoothly transitioning to the ground if he lands during the punch. This has some interesting applications; I could see it used in recovery, tech chases, and edge guarding.

It didn't take long to realize, though, that this overlapped in function with his vB. The best thing I could come up with is just to change his vB to something else. I think his ground pound move from Ocarina of Time would fit here. It would work similarly to DK's vB, though it's one powerful strike that pops foes into the air and doesn't loop. It would probably be slower as well. When used in the air, It would function similarly to Bowser's vB, only without the armor, but a larger and more powerful horizontal hitbox when it hits the ground. Whether or not it should cancel his horizontal momentum in the air is something else I considered. I could see it stopping his momentum, or I could see it plummeting similar to his aerial >B. The downward aerial strike could be a meteor or a spike, or could have an upward trajectory.

Whether or not either of these changes would function well I don't know, but Ganon needs improvement and I don't really see any decent solutions, so I figured I'd at least contribute an idea.

 

[Scuba Steve]

So I was thinking of ways to potentially improve Ganon and keep his design true to Zelda fiction. Now, some of these ideas might work better in theory than in practice, and the fine details would have to be tweaked through playtesting, but at least it's something.

First, I was considering how to make his nB actually useful without compromising it.The main issue is that you just can't hit anything with it, so I was thinking of ways to make it easier to land a hit. The best thing I could come up with is to give the punch some forward momentum. That is, when Ganon actually unleashes the punch, it launches him forward some and the punch hitbox stays open. Ganon's already a heavy punish character who has a solid techchase game, so I felt that this worked with his overall design. It would have the same effect when used in the air, but would be affected by gravity and Ganon would decrease in height as he punches, smoothly transitioning to the ground if he lands during the punch. This has some interesting applications; I could see it used in recovery, tech chases, and edge guarding.

It didn't take long to realize, though, that this overlapped in function with his vB. The best thing I could come up with is just to change his vB to something else. I think his ground pound move from Ocarina of Time would fit here. It would work similarly to DK's vB, though it's one powerful strike that pops foes into the air and doesn't loop. It would probably be slower as well. When used in the air, It would function similarly to Bowser's vB, only without the armor, but a larger and more powerful horizontal hitbox when it hits the ground. Whether or not it should cancel his horizontal momentum in the air is something else I considered. I could see it stopping his momentum, or I could see it plummeting similar to his aerial >B. The downward aerial strike could be a meteor or a spike, or could have an upward trajectory.

Whether or not either of these changes would function well I don't know, but Ganon needs improvement and I don't really see any decent solutions, so I figured I'd at least contribute an idea.

As a Ganon main, pls no.

 

[SixSaw]

Ganon should get stronger the longer he's alive. Like the power of his attacks gradually increase passively Replace his NB with a charge move that gradually increases his attack power until after a minute and half or so of combined charge he's dealing double damage (at which point not only is he obviously retardedly dangerous, most of his attacks will also beat or at least clank with pretty much anything making his approaches easier), but it resets at the start of every stock. The triforce on his hand could also glow more and more brightly to show the progress.

That way his playstyle can stay basically the same but opponents have new incentive to be proactive since Ganon is a ticking timebomb if left to his own devices. It's also super lore friendly.

 

[NisforSmash]

inb4 ganon should get his sword

but seriously what does he lack? i don't play him

 

[SixSaw]

Approaches/ answers to projectile camping

 

[victra♥]

inb4 ganon should get his sword

but seriously what does he lack? i don't play him

Ganon is easily edgeguarded and has a lack luster recovery in a game where nearly everyone's recovery is amazing. Other characters with lack luster recoveries have some advantages that make up for it. Wario has superior mobility to make up for his trash recovery, Falco is glass cannon but has the tools to zone and play safely. Ganon doesn't have anything good enough to make up for his terrible recovery, just like Olimar and TLink, and on top of that he gets zoned himself so hard by projectiles in addition to just getting bopped by higher mobility characters

 

[NWRL]

Don't open up the TV can of worms pld

 

[NisforSmash]

Ganon is easily edgeguarded and has a lack luster recovery in a game where nearly everyone's recovery is amazing. Other characters with lack luster recoveries have some advantages that make up for it. Wario has superior mobility to make up for his trash recovery, Falco is glass cannon but has the tools to zone and play safely. Ganon doesn't have anything good enough to make up for his terrible recovery, just like Olimar and TLink, and on top of that he gets zoned himself so hard by projectiles in addition to just getting bopped by higher mobility characters

oh ok. although im pretty sure tlink and olimar have really solid recoveries. like if you've explored a bit with them, oli has like 3 jumps and a tether and tlink has a crazy good bombjump.

 

[B.W.]

People still don't know that Olimar has amazing recovery lol.

 

[Saproling]

I don't see it.

 

[NisforSmash]

I 'd be down for the Luther armor idea if it were something like Lucas' offense up move but i really don't expect Ganon mains to sacrifice warlock punch or the moving purple people eater (wizards foot).

Edit: Here's how it could work. He starts the match with this purple aura/glow around his body which signifies that it is active and will absorb any 1 projectile or attack. Once depleted it regains over time similar to how a shield does. It doesn't have to be manual, it can be an automatic self replenishing magic shield.

 

[woundedust]

How about replacing neutral b with the light ball from oot he shoots?

 

[Mera Mera]

Ganon should get stronger the longer he's alive. Like the power of his attacks gradually increase passively until after 2 minutes or so he's dealing double damage (at which point not only is he obviously retardedly dangerous, most of his attacks will also beat or at least clank with pretty much anything making his approaches easier), but it resets at the start of every stock. The triforce on his hand could also glow more and more brightly to show the progress.

That way his playstyle can stay basically the same but opponents have new incentive to be proactive since Ganon is a ticking timebomb. It's also super lore friendly.

This is actually a pretty cool idea. I honestly don't know the character well enough to know if/how much he needs a buff, but it he does need one this would definitely be unique/cool.

 

[didds]

Comebacks against Ganon would become incredibly difficult. Oh we're on dreamland? Oh Ganon is on his 4th stock and I'm down to 2? Oh Ganon lives forever here? Oh I'm down and have to approach? Oh Ganon has double strength now? Oh Squirtle literally dies in 2 hits now? Oh this is getting old?

But really, that sounds scary to me. Ganon needs something, but I'm hesitant on this one.

 

[Saproling]

Ganon should get stronger the longer he's alive. Like the power of his attacks gradually increase passively until after 2 minutes or so he's dealing double damage (at which point not only is he obviously retardedly dangerous, most of his attacks will also beat or at least clank with pretty much anything making his approaches easier), but it resets at the start of every stock. The triforce on his hand could also glow more and more brightly to show the progress.

That way his playstyle can stay basically the same but opponents have new incentive to be proactive since Ganon is a ticking timebomb. It's also super lore friendly.

Then Ganon's will sit on the ledge and wait for there stupid strength to come.Its a neat idea and a bit like lucario from brawl but I think it will be toxic to how people play him which is NEVER good.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Comebacks against Ganon would become incredibly difficult. Oh we're on dreamland? Oh Ganon is on his 4th stock and I'm down to 2? Oh Ganon lives forever here? Oh I'm down and have to approach? Oh Ganon has double strength now? Oh Squirtle literally dies in 2 hits now? Oh this is getting old?

But really, that sounds scary to me. Ganon needs something, but I'm hesitant on this one.

Theoretically, you could just ban Dreamland. That's the essence of counterpicking, after all.

 

[Paradoxium]

Question of the day!

Who is better? Lucas or Wolf?