Tier List Speculation

[Hungry Headcrab]

Wait, is this the tier list speculation thread? All I see is silly Ganon suggestions.

 

[JOE!]

Ganon should get fire breath


Real talk tho, if his issue is projectiles.... In every ganon fight he is kniwn to reflect them...

 

[MLGF]

Wait, is this the tier list speculation thread? All I see is silly Ganon suggestions.

Better then whining about how Fox is this games Satan and how Donkey Kong died for our sins.

 

[DMG]

Donkey Kong should die for his own sins

 

[Strong Badam]

is that not true tho? dk definitely died for our sins

 

[1FD]

Wind effects on everything Ganon does especially purple fire like seriously

 

[Deleted member]

we should make all of ganon's attacks do massive shield damage so we have a hard counter for jigglypuff. that character needs more hate.

 

[1FD]

Wind effects to pull in the balloon better into those shield breaker attacks too

 

[Sinz]

Donkey Kong should die for his own @ Sinz

is that not true tho? dk definitely died for our @ Sinz

Fixed it yo

 

[XXXX1000]

actual discussion of character ability always falls to the wayside in favor of asking for nerfs/buffs so i decided to stop fighting it

read the "what are ways to make Ganondorf better" conversation as "people are so sure that ganondorf is crap that his level of crap doesn't even need to be discussed, really"

 

[CORY]

most of the ganon suggestions are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over the top. he doesn't need a lot, seriously. he can still get kills in, like, three hits (hyperbole, but still).

really, just give him a better grab box, that goes lower (maybe further out, but the lower part is important. just enough to catch stuff like mario/kirby dash attacks).

fix up dsmash so the hits link into each other better, so you can know what's going to happen with opponents get hit and can do stuff out of it.

do something with warlock punch. that can include scrapping it and replacing it, or just a lot of tweaks. preferably, this would make him not so free to run away/projectile spam.

and... that's it. (ok, more tweaks might be helpful, but that's the big things, imo...)

the first one helps with pressure. he shouldn't be immune to it (i would like to see some stuff like allow upb oos to catch people earlier, but it's less important, imo), but he also shouldn't be free to a lot of silly stuff.

dsmash is just quality of life, really. it's inconsistent, since opponent di can just make the second hit whiff, when it seems like it shouldn't, and vice versa.

and use one of the many many actually feasible ideas out there to replace warlock punch. something with some armor capability or projectile protection that has a counterplay to it in some way. and then, you can even put the warlock punch animation in as a new fsmash : D this is the part that's most important and what i'm assuming potential pmbr builds are focusing around?

 

[Paradoxium]

what would happen if we toned down all the good characters and kept the bad characters the way they were?

 

[Kati]

Approaches/ answers to projectile camping

I don't know who read it, but I suggested in some Ganon thread that Gerudu Dragon make a comeback.

If Kirby can get the horizontal cutter, is is theoretically possible that >B followed by a downwards input could allow Ganon to switch to the GD from the flame choke?

Gerudu Dragon's range/kb/aerial qualities would be left to the pmbr/play testers, but why I bring it up in the first place is that in melee, Ganon travels low to the ground as he does it. Iirc Ganon was able to pass under projectiles due to some weird z-axis positioning. If PM Ganon could be given a new gerudu dragon that is intentionally designed to go under projectiles, he would:

1) have one more option to approach
2) have one more tool to employ against projectile camping
3) still retain his over all playstyle as this "new" move is in fact one from melee Ganon.

A fourth point that doesn't relate to projectiles or camping is that he would then have an option to tech chase people lying down away from him. Currently his flame choke does not afford him this option unlike Melee Ganon.

 

[Bleck]

what would happen if we toned down all the good characters and kept the bad characters the way they were?

the game might actually be fun

 

[DrinkingFood]

We don't play for fun here, we play for glory

 

[Saproling]

I play for fox thank you.

 

[Metazoa]

What if we made all the characters even better
and went further BEYOND

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Implement more ATs yeah^^

 

[Pickledpotatoes]

And so the official Project Minus was born.

 

[mYzeALot]

What are the true spikes in PM? The only I know of is Falcon's nipple spike, Falco's dair, Snake's fair, and maybe Marth's dair?

 

[CyberZixx]

Luca back air as well is true I think.

 

[Vashimus]

Captain Falcon: Dair (nipple spike)
DK: Fair (late hit), Side-B
Falco: Dair
Ganon: Aerial Wizard's Foot
Ike: Dair
Marth: Dair (tip)
Snake: Fair (heel)
Toon Link: Dair
Lucario: Aerial EX Force Palm
Sonic: Dair

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

^
Lucas Bair, Ike Dair (hilt) and Tink Dair (hat)

 

[9bit]

If Lucas' b-air is a spike that is a dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb decision.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Isnt part of GW's dair a spike?

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

If Lucas' b-air is a spike that is a dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb decision.

Only a certain hitbox of the bair. The other part is a meteor.

 

[Soft Serve]

Isnt part of GW's dair a spike?

It has an initial meteor hitbox.


While I would agree with most people that Ganon struggles in the neutral game and can't deal with projectiles very well, I would really really want most people who ask for just straight buffs to play against a good melee ganon main. Ganon is an explosive character and punishes mistakes ridiculously hard, almost all ganon matchups are disadvantageous in neutral for him and his entire goal is to make the most of his punish game.

Have you ever gotten hit by Dair > crotch rocket up-smash? 64% dmg and sent straight horizontal. 2 moves. If Ganon got the tools to more easily open up his opponent, he would have to have his damage toned down imo, and no ganon main wants that. They play ganon so they can space fairs, choke slam, and Stomp people's faces in and kill in 4 hits.

I like him getting zangeif's green hand though, I love that move and it would help him with some of his issues without it being things like massive speedbuffs.

 

[XXXX1000]

if by "straight buffs" you mean buffs to his run speed, aerial movement speed, knockback, damage, adding armor and stuff like that then I agree, I think his kit is lacking whereas many other characters have been updated to fit the new landscape of projectiles, superb offstage games and all the new hotness. Making it 100% easier to do his job by simply buffing speed/damage/whatever is messy and puts him in a volatile state of balance - tons of heavy win matchups and tons of heavy loss matchups, his strategy would be one-dimensional, and nobody would be having fun anymore because either Ganon would be outcamped forever or the enemy would be getting bodied by an unstoppable force. He needs more thoughtful work than simply "make him faster".

Like, I wasn't even joking when I said that there was no discussion of Ganon's spot on the list because there seems to be unanimous agreement that he's just not up to par. Even Squirtle and Olimar have people vouching for them (Neon and Oracle, respectively, and some other people), but I've not seen anyone claim that PM Ganon is even mid tier. Though if anyone believes that, they should totally join the discussion and explain what they think imo

 

[Saproling]

Captain Falcon: Dair (nipple spike)
DK: Fair (late hit), Side-B
Falco: Dair
Ganon: Aerial Wizard's Foot
Ike: Dair
Marth: Dair (tip)
Snake: Fair (heel)
Toon Link: Dair
Lucario: Aerial EX Force Palm
Sonic: Dair

Ivy has one on sweetspot dair though its a ***** to get.

 

[metroid1117]

Ivy has one on sweetspot dair though its a ***** to get.

I think the original question was regarding true spikes, not meteors; the hitstun from a meteor smash can be canceled with a jump or up+B after a certain period of time, whereas the hitstun from a spike cannot. I'm fairly certain that Ivysaur's DAir is a meteor, but I could be mistaken.

 

[jtm94]

Spikes are way more potent than meteors.
I don't really count situational spikes as a spike because most of the time they are just a meteor.

Toon Link's dair is a spike I believe, I was corrected to that in the Tink subforums.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ivysaur sweetspot D-Air is definitely a meteor.

 

[GMaster171]

Something I think you should mention is that Sonic's/Ganon's is only at the beginning (as you say things like "tip" "sweetspot" for others.)

Also I believe the falling hitbox on Ivy's uair is a true spike.

 

[CORY]

i'm fairly certain ganon's entire aerial wizkick animation spikes.

edit: as per spike vs. meteor:
there's also the factor of the angles they send at being different. meteors typically don't send very from from straight down, whereas spikes have a bit more of a 30-45 degree angle. something like that...

 

[Scuba Steve]

i'm fairly certain ganon's entire aerial wizkick animation spikes.

edit: as per spike vs. meteor:
there's also the factor of the angles they send at being different. meteors typically don't send very from from straight down, whereas spikes have a bit more of a 30-45 degree angle. something like that...

Yeah, I think that's right. It's just a weaker spike later in the animation.

 

[SixSaw]

It's the same strength all the way through.

 

[GMaster171]

My mistake, it is through the entire move.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Anyone else watching Nintendude's G&W? Looking pretty sick!

 

[Elion33]

Anyone else watching Nintendude's G&W? Looking pretty sick!

That means GnW will be nerfed next patch.
Same for Snake (He seriously needs some adjustments).

 

[CaptainKirby]

Anyone else watching Nintendude's G&W? Looking pretty sick!

I always felt like Game & Watch most certainly had untapped potential. I'm glad someone's making use of it.