-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
SixSaw
Smash Journeyman
Good, Ganon should be scary. He's the goddamn king of evil.
Seal him away early on while he's still maintaining a facade of harmlessness. Give him 7 years of prep time? Looks like your Hyrule's getting conquered.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Yes, but giving him a play-style where purposefully not engaging with the opponent is the best option would in fact be extremely toxic. Stalling through various methods like planking, while not 100% safe, would become a more appealing option and make the match extremely aggravating at best.
Giving Ganon an active way to increase his power, maybe through 'charging up' with his NB would be a better way of achieving this. There would be clear risk, reward, counterplays and strategy involved instead of "Try to run away for thirty seconds until I go uber beast mode."
SixSaw
Smash Journeyman
You're absolutely right. I actually originally conceived the power-up idea as a NB charge move when I posted it on the Ganon boards a while ago (I imagine it as him assuming that iconic pose where he faces the opponent and holds his fist up in front of him with the triforce glowing). It's a much better way to go about it. All I'd add is that it'd need to be relatively quick and safe to start/stop charging, or else he could just be harassed out of it with projectiles and it wouldn't solve anything.
EDIT: Maybe it could also have light armor. Just enough to resist things like Falco lasers
Last edited:
Rᴏb
still here, just to suffer
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 1,595
Give Ganon an offense up that can eat projectiles while charging. This would give you a reason to approach him and would also stop him from being destroyed by projectiles (read: lasers). Also, wizard kick clanks with too many things. A fireball shouldn't be able to stop you dead in your tracks.
I don't think Ganon needs any drastic changes, he is quite fun to play. He just needs something that adds depth.
I don't think Ganon needs any drastic changes, he is quite fun to play. He just needs something that adds depth.
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2005
- Messages
- 8,189
Its not amazing.
B.W.
Smash Champion
No, it's pretty amazing.
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2005
- Messages
- 8,189
B.W.
Smash Champion
It's 100% because you play Kirby.
Also Olimar's tether is able of hitting the opponent while still grabbing the ledge, which is fantastic. Not many characters can edge guard him that easily.
He can even survive being shine spiked if he's not too low. There aren't a lot of characters that are capable of doing that.
Also Olimar's tether is able of hitting the opponent while still grabbing the ledge, which is fantastic. Not many characters can edge guard him that easily.
He can even survive being shine spiked if he's not too low. There aren't a lot of characters that are capable of doing that.
My god, brilliant. Well my concerns are nil now, carry on.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Ganondorf
Nspec: Triforce of Power
Hold the b button for the equivalent time of the old Warlock Punch in order to build your power.
Once attuned with the triforce, Ganon gains an added "darkness" hitbox to his attacks as well as brief light armor on some maneuvers.
The buff lasts for X amount of time / X amount of % taken, and alternatively can be expended with a press of B for an instant Warlock Punch.
Nspec: Triforce of Power
Hold the b button for the equivalent time of the old Warlock Punch in order to build your power.
Once attuned with the triforce, Ganon gains an added "darkness" hitbox to his attacks as well as brief light armor on some maneuvers.
The buff lasts for X amount of time / X amount of % taken, and alternatively can be expended with a press of B for an instant Warlock Punch.
No.
1FD
Smash Ace
Grab?!?!?!
WOLF HAS SOME OF THE BEST THROWS IN THE GAME
Something to combo anyone into anything from anywhere at anytime!
Can't beat that!
His Grab Range >>>>>> LIFE too
But yeah Lucas has great grabbage too
Mera Mera
Smash Journeyman
Yeah... the stalling thing was a good point. This would work though. I can't really imagine him doing this pose in the air though. Any thoughts on neutral B in the air? Still the punch?
I really do think it's good to minimize useless moves, so this would definitely be an improvement imo.
Then fire breaths should be out as they don't get enough use to warrant being useful.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Hell, I co-main Zard and i even overlook the utility of Flamethrower at an edge sometimes, still vs. Turn a stock around tho.
I know it has uses but its very limited as is falcon punch,warlock punch and if people want warlock punch changed I cant see how they would argue against flamethrowers,falcon punch going out the window as well.
Radical Larry
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2014
- Messages
- 1,994
- Location
- The Pocket Dimension
- NNID
- Crimson-Vulcan
- 3DS FC
- 1822-3761-9326
Warning: Long Read Ahead!
I will state my best choices for the changes for Ganondorf in Project M that could benefit him substantially. This will include changes to his attacks and new attacks; some of you may like them, some may not, but in the end, these are my opinions about how to improve Ganondorf in the mod.
1 - Let his Jab reflect projectiles: As the title says, give his jab attack reflecting properties to keep opponents from projectile camping. Since the attack is comparably the same to Mario's Cape, in terms of speed, Ganondorf would easily benefit from the change to stop characters such as Falco and Link to projectile camp.
2 - Speed buffs: Give him a little more speed buff, about 1.8x faster than now. Though Ganondorf is a heavyweight character, keep in mind that he's also a strength character and he is fast in a lot of areas. And don't forget he needs an easier time to combo opponents, right? So why not let him run a bit faster to catch up to teching and fast-falling opponents. He's not slow in his respective games (OoT and TP), so why not make him faster now? (Please note he's much faster than Link when running in Twilight Princess)
3 - Armor:
3.1 - General Weak Armor: Ganondorf should have weak armor in general when not attacking. Being a heavy character, he would benefit from characters with infinite jabs, like Link or Kirby. While letting him attack the opponent who is using a weak attack, he still takes damage, but no knockback.
3.2 - Strong Armor Tilts and Smashes: When using his tilts or smashes, Ganondorf should have strong armor. This would give him more priority over other characters with their tilts, but he is still susceptible against Smash attacks and specials.
4 - Air game buffs: As with his speed, give him less fast falling speed and better air speed. This would give him even better combo capabilities in the air against floatier opponents than him. It would also benefit his recovery immensely by doing this, as he would have an easier time to get back onto the stage.
5 - Different Side Special: Instead of having Ganondorf grab the opponent and meteor him/her down to try and attack again, have him grab the opponent, jump high into the air and slam them down instead; the attack is similar to Bowser's Flying Slam from Brawl in terms of height and attack, but similar to T. Hawk's grab from Super Street Fighter IV in terms of animation. Now in the air, Ganondorf does the same exact thing when he grabs an opponent, but if he doesn't, it still acts like what his normal Side Special does already.
6 - Attack Changes (Strong Attacks):
6.1 - Forward Tilt: Why not replace his normal Forward tilt with a new attack? I'm thinking Ganondorf should have a faster, shorter ranged, spinning knuckle attack. Ganondorf does a 360 spin and hits the opponent with the back of his hands, causing the same amount of damage as his current forward tilt.
6.2 - Dash: While it's safe to say his Dash is good, we could have a newer attack that could pressure shields. My suggestion on this is to base his dash off of M. Bison's Scissor Kick attack. Now Ganondorf would have the same speed and hit the opponent in the same trajectory as his current dash, but would benefit from having two attacks for his dash, both of which will send the opponent up like his current dash attack regardless; the change is mainly to pressure the opponent's shield.
6.3 - Down Tilt: Instead of the low kick, we could instead use a double low kick. Now of course, the kicks would be spinning kicks with both his legs, where his right leg goes forward, and his left leg hits from the back. Bear in mind that they both hit in front of him, and have the same trajectory as his current kick. Of course, the damage would benefit from being 12% to 15% because of the attack being two kicks instead of one; the first kick deals 3% damage while linking to the second to deal 12% damage.
7 - Attack Changes (Smash Attacks):
7.1 - Forward Smash: So now we get to this; we could make Ganondorf's forward smash similar to Captain Falcon's from the original Super Smash Bros. game, in which it's a turning kick attack. Ganondorf would benefit both from speed and range of the attack, but as compensation for that, the damage is nerfed from 22% to 20%.
7.2 - Up Smash: Now his current Up Smash is still great, but we could instead make it a backflip attack, similar to Fox and Falco's up smashes. However, Ganondorf still benefits from both attacks linking up to each other in rapid succession, giving him the capability to attack from under. The bigger benefit is that Ganondorf gains additional height in the attack so he can hit opponents earlier.
8 - Attack Changes (Aerial):
8.1 - Neutral Aerial: Give him a faster neutral aerial, like a spin. Ganondorf spins twice in the air to hit the opponent twice with the same damage and knockback, but the first hit links up to the other.
9 - Special Attack Changes:
9.1 - Neutral Special: Okay, we know Warlock Punch is still slow, but I got a solution to that. We make it a projectile instead; my idea is that Ganondorf's Warlock Punch is faster and produces a small, fast projectile that hits the opponent. The initial attack alone would deal around 22% damage and heavy knockback, whereas the projectile does 12% and moderate knockback.
9.2a - Down Special (Aerial): We could combine Wizard's Foot with a shockwave if he hits the ground, stunning opponents and dealing around 8% damage if the shockwaves hit and the opponents would be stunned enough for him to use a follow-up attack. Another benefit is that the shockwave produces electricity that can even stun airborne opponents that are a bit above Ganondorf.
9.2b - Down Special (Grounded): A great change would be the speed and range of the attack being faster and longer, similar to Melee's Ganondorf, yet still a bit better.
10 - Sword: Finally, we have the sword. Ganondorf could pull out the sword and it would change up his entire attack strategy, save his Neutral and Down Specials being completely unaffected. How Ganondorf would pull the sword out is if he uses the taunt that pulls it out. He will then be able to wield it in battle or put it back, similar to Samus' beam changes. With the sword, Ganondorf would also have a speed buff that makes him about as fast as Mr. Game and Watch.
Now with this in mind, my conclusion is, is that Ganondorf still has a lot of studying and working still being put into him in Project M. With these changes, which, keep in mind, are my opinion, Ganondorf would probably benefit with the attacks and keep from being a semi-clone of Captain Falcon. Also keep a mental note that Ganondorf's attack trajectories (where the opponent is sent flying) have little to no change whatsoever. In terms of aerial game, even though he's a heavyweight, he should still be able to fall slowly and move in the air much faster. And considering the games he hails from, it would be viable to make Ganondorf a faster character than he is now.
And don't forget, these are my ideas, opinions and suggestions and should be treated as such. Thank you for reading.
I will state my best choices for the changes for Ganondorf in Project M that could benefit him substantially. This will include changes to his attacks and new attacks; some of you may like them, some may not, but in the end, these are my opinions about how to improve Ganondorf in the mod.
1 - Let his Jab reflect projectiles: As the title says, give his jab attack reflecting properties to keep opponents from projectile camping. Since the attack is comparably the same to Mario's Cape, in terms of speed, Ganondorf would easily benefit from the change to stop characters such as Falco and Link to projectile camp.
2 - Speed buffs: Give him a little more speed buff, about 1.8x faster than now. Though Ganondorf is a heavyweight character, keep in mind that he's also a strength character and he is fast in a lot of areas. And don't forget he needs an easier time to combo opponents, right? So why not let him run a bit faster to catch up to teching and fast-falling opponents. He's not slow in his respective games (OoT and TP), so why not make him faster now? (Please note he's much faster than Link when running in Twilight Princess)
3 - Armor:
3.1 - General Weak Armor: Ganondorf should have weak armor in general when not attacking. Being a heavy character, he would benefit from characters with infinite jabs, like Link or Kirby. While letting him attack the opponent who is using a weak attack, he still takes damage, but no knockback.
3.2 - Strong Armor Tilts and Smashes: When using his tilts or smashes, Ganondorf should have strong armor. This would give him more priority over other characters with their tilts, but he is still susceptible against Smash attacks and specials.
4 - Air game buffs: As with his speed, give him less fast falling speed and better air speed. This would give him even better combo capabilities in the air against floatier opponents than him. It would also benefit his recovery immensely by doing this, as he would have an easier time to get back onto the stage.
5 - Different Side Special: Instead of having Ganondorf grab the opponent and meteor him/her down to try and attack again, have him grab the opponent, jump high into the air and slam them down instead; the attack is similar to Bowser's Flying Slam from Brawl in terms of height and attack, but similar to T. Hawk's grab from Super Street Fighter IV in terms of animation. Now in the air, Ganondorf does the same exact thing when he grabs an opponent, but if he doesn't, it still acts like what his normal Side Special does already.
6 - Attack Changes (Strong Attacks):
6.1 - Forward Tilt: Why not replace his normal Forward tilt with a new attack? I'm thinking Ganondorf should have a faster, shorter ranged, spinning knuckle attack. Ganondorf does a 360 spin and hits the opponent with the back of his hands, causing the same amount of damage as his current forward tilt.
6.2 - Dash: While it's safe to say his Dash is good, we could have a newer attack that could pressure shields. My suggestion on this is to base his dash off of M. Bison's Scissor Kick attack. Now Ganondorf would have the same speed and hit the opponent in the same trajectory as his current dash, but would benefit from having two attacks for his dash, both of which will send the opponent up like his current dash attack regardless; the change is mainly to pressure the opponent's shield.
6.3 - Down Tilt: Instead of the low kick, we could instead use a double low kick. Now of course, the kicks would be spinning kicks with both his legs, where his right leg goes forward, and his left leg hits from the back. Bear in mind that they both hit in front of him, and have the same trajectory as his current kick. Of course, the damage would benefit from being 12% to 15% because of the attack being two kicks instead of one; the first kick deals 3% damage while linking to the second to deal 12% damage.
7 - Attack Changes (Smash Attacks):
7.1 - Forward Smash: So now we get to this; we could make Ganondorf's forward smash similar to Captain Falcon's from the original Super Smash Bros. game, in which it's a turning kick attack. Ganondorf would benefit both from speed and range of the attack, but as compensation for that, the damage is nerfed from 22% to 20%.
7.2 - Up Smash: Now his current Up Smash is still great, but we could instead make it a backflip attack, similar to Fox and Falco's up smashes. However, Ganondorf still benefits from both attacks linking up to each other in rapid succession, giving him the capability to attack from under. The bigger benefit is that Ganondorf gains additional height in the attack so he can hit opponents earlier.
8 - Attack Changes (Aerial):
8.1 - Neutral Aerial: Give him a faster neutral aerial, like a spin. Ganondorf spins twice in the air to hit the opponent twice with the same damage and knockback, but the first hit links up to the other.
9 - Special Attack Changes:
9.1 - Neutral Special: Okay, we know Warlock Punch is still slow, but I got a solution to that. We make it a projectile instead; my idea is that Ganondorf's Warlock Punch is faster and produces a small, fast projectile that hits the opponent. The initial attack alone would deal around 22% damage and heavy knockback, whereas the projectile does 12% and moderate knockback.
9.2a - Down Special (Aerial): We could combine Wizard's Foot with a shockwave if he hits the ground, stunning opponents and dealing around 8% damage if the shockwaves hit and the opponents would be stunned enough for him to use a follow-up attack. Another benefit is that the shockwave produces electricity that can even stun airborne opponents that are a bit above Ganondorf.
9.2b - Down Special (Grounded): A great change would be the speed and range of the attack being faster and longer, similar to Melee's Ganondorf, yet still a bit better.
10 - Sword: Finally, we have the sword. Ganondorf could pull out the sword and it would change up his entire attack strategy, save his Neutral and Down Specials being completely unaffected. How Ganondorf would pull the sword out is if he uses the taunt that pulls it out. He will then be able to wield it in battle or put it back, similar to Samus' beam changes. With the sword, Ganondorf would also have a speed buff that makes him about as fast as Mr. Game and Watch.
Now with this in mind, my conclusion is, is that Ganondorf still has a lot of studying and working still being put into him in Project M. With these changes, which, keep in mind, are my opinion, Ganondorf would probably benefit with the attacks and keep from being a semi-clone of Captain Falcon. Also keep a mental note that Ganondorf's attack trajectories (where the opponent is sent flying) have little to no change whatsoever. In terms of aerial game, even though he's a heavyweight, he should still be able to fall slowly and move in the air much faster. And considering the games he hails from, it would be viable to make Ganondorf a faster character than he is now.
And don't forget, these are my ideas, opinions and suggestions and should be treated as such. Thank you for reading.
I understand that Its nice for putting out for a second when dropping through platform's,or tacking on some damage from the ledge and that its under used a little bit.But I cant really see it getting more use than that on the topic of the punches I know removing falcon punch would piss a lot of people off. And yes again it has its uses as does warlock punch so I think just changing NB isn't going to be a fair change or even really a fix I think Ganons issues stem from a deeper issue that isn't being addressed I wish I knew what it was honestly but I don't.But im also saying if his punch gets changed due to that being why I think those should as well for the sake of being fair as well as good game design.Flamethrower has much more practical utility than the punches. It doesn't take seconds to come out.
And even falcon punch is important if you're trying to style
I agree with 1,4,7.2 ,8.1 and 9.2,
I don't really understand why you want 5 or 10 though. The beam switch I feel didn't work well,Its a cool idea on paper but in execution it feels sloppy and just a bit worthless.I cant say I support all of this but you certainly have some good ideas in there.
I don't really understand why you want 5 or 10 though. The beam switch I feel didn't work well,Its a cool idea on paper but in execution it feels sloppy and just a bit worthless.I cant say I support all of this but you certainly have some good ideas in there.
Everything I bolded, underlined, and italicized sounds way too silly or crazy. I'm terrified at letting you fiddle with Ganon: you'll break him in one shot.
Last edited:
Mewtwo hover, hate to be nit picky but might as well not be confusing with the whole peach float thing.
2deep4me
Mera Mera
Smash Journeyman
Actually Zard's neutral B is really useful against spacies recovering. Like, to the point where it has a significant impact on the match up. It's also moderately useful in other matches when near the ledge. Not really sure if Bowser's is any good though.
Edit: That said, I'm not a huge fan of the move despite it being on my main.
Last edited:
Bowsers can be good. Instant flame on landing, and if they di in then bowser covers the end lag with a bite. I imagine its a good anti dd mixup.
Well you would know better than me so I cant really argue after giving my opinion.
Mera Mera
Smash Journeyman
Honestly it was only in the last month or so that I started using the move cause I just assumed it was bad, so I don't blame you for thinking it's useless. It's definitely one of the most boring moves :/
It helps against spacies cause it means it can make them recover from below the stage. If you neutral B near the ledge it will stop side B and up B for spacies, which makes them fall below the ledge, forcing them to up B and angle upwards. Since their up B's have disjoint on the side of their bodies as they travel, going up means they have very little disjoint above them. This on top of the fact that their angle is now more predictable pretty much guarantees a free dair for the kill.
Last edited:
I can see that happening with spacies. I play a little bit of bowser and I really only use it when coming down from platforms if someones approaching to cover some space and get some damage.
Radical Larry
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2014
- Messages
- 1,994
- Location
- The Pocket Dimension
- NNID
- Crimson-Vulcan
- 3DS FC
- 1822-3761-9326
Well, knowing that Ganondorf's Flame Choke would already suicide him, I think it would be proper and better for Ganondorf to twirl the opponent in a windmill after gaining some height and then slamming them downwards.
And of course, don't forget that, on number 10, it would be similar to Samus' beam taunt to where only some attacks get changed. The attacks that would get changed would only be his ground attacks when using the sword attacks. But then I'm also thinking we give Ganondorf an entirely new moveset and idle animation altogether for the attacks and character overall; again, I point to Samus here, since she also got new attacks.
Radical Larry, Radical Ideas, Radical Time!
But seriously, I could make a game with these ideas now that I think about it, but I've considered it.
XXXX1000
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
- Messages
- 96
give Ganondorf an EX Green hand on neutral B and call it a day
for non street fighter players, EX green hand is a move Zangief has where he steps forward (probably about 1/2 to 3/4 the distance that a roll moves) and does a flaming hand slap thing at about waist-level, but he has partial invincibility on his step forward which lets him bypass projectiles and "out-prioritize" many other moves, and the hand hit knocks down. counterplay to this is that it has lots of lag on whiff/block, it's not 100% invincible so it needs to be timed/reacted and the hitbox is lower to the ground so well-timed jumps avoid it.
if Ganon had one then he would have a risk/reward game to play vs projectile campers - he could step through projectiles with good timing and it naturally moves him forward. projectile spammers would be defeated because their projectile camp game would be threatened (because Ganon is in your face) and if you're spamming projectiles then you gave up your attempt to punish. If someone were using projectiles intelligently then they would be able to use a projectile to bait a green hand and then rush in for a punish. In addition, if it has high end lag, it would be punishable on whiff or on shield, meaning Ganon cannot mindlessly spam it in order to move forward. It wouldn't beat every projectile like Link or TL boomerangs (since they would return unhindered) or quicker projectiles like Falco lasers or Mario fireballs, but ROB gyro/laser, Peach turnips, Ivysaur razor leaf, Ness PK Fire, Link/TL bombs, and Diddy bananas would be much less effective.
If green hand hits in SF, it causes hard knock down which lets Zangief set up for cross ups, SPDs, etc. but since Smash is a different game and allows techs, it would be able to be teched just like Flame Choke. But when Ganon is close to an enemy but not in tilt range, he now has choices - he could wait for the opponent to move first and try to react, he could hold ground or move forward with aerials, he could move in with green hand, which would punish projectiles, SHFFL aerials and tilts (since Ganon would be invincible, his green hand would have "priority") but would be punished by wavedash backwards, spot dodge, smart dash dancing, or shield, OR he could flame choke in, which grabs through shield and beats wavedashing and dash dancing.
Green hand would give Ganon's kit more cohesiveness overall because it would give him more ways to take advantage of his generally strong aerials and punish game, but it would have clear counterplay that requires forethought and intelligence. It gives Ganon more opportunities to take advantage of his strong tech chase game. It would make his Flame Choke become even more powerful because it can now serve as a mix-up when up close to an opponent. It keeps the theme of Ganon alive and preserves what people like about him while giving him more options for approaching opponents.
for non street fighter players, EX green hand is a move Zangief has where he steps forward (probably about 1/2 to 3/4 the distance that a roll moves) and does a flaming hand slap thing at about waist-level, but he has partial invincibility on his step forward which lets him bypass projectiles and "out-prioritize" many other moves, and the hand hit knocks down. counterplay to this is that it has lots of lag on whiff/block, it's not 100% invincible so it needs to be timed/reacted and the hitbox is lower to the ground so well-timed jumps avoid it.
if Ganon had one then he would have a risk/reward game to play vs projectile campers - he could step through projectiles with good timing and it naturally moves him forward. projectile spammers would be defeated because their projectile camp game would be threatened (because Ganon is in your face) and if you're spamming projectiles then you gave up your attempt to punish. If someone were using projectiles intelligently then they would be able to use a projectile to bait a green hand and then rush in for a punish. In addition, if it has high end lag, it would be punishable on whiff or on shield, meaning Ganon cannot mindlessly spam it in order to move forward. It wouldn't beat every projectile like Link or TL boomerangs (since they would return unhindered) or quicker projectiles like Falco lasers or Mario fireballs, but ROB gyro/laser, Peach turnips, Ivysaur razor leaf, Ness PK Fire, Link/TL bombs, and Diddy bananas would be much less effective.
If green hand hits in SF, it causes hard knock down which lets Zangief set up for cross ups, SPDs, etc. but since Smash is a different game and allows techs, it would be able to be teched just like Flame Choke. But when Ganon is close to an enemy but not in tilt range, he now has choices - he could wait for the opponent to move first and try to react, he could hold ground or move forward with aerials, he could move in with green hand, which would punish projectiles, SHFFL aerials and tilts (since Ganon would be invincible, his green hand would have "priority") but would be punished by wavedash backwards, spot dodge, smart dash dancing, or shield, OR he could flame choke in, which grabs through shield and beats wavedashing and dash dancing.
Green hand would give Ganon's kit more cohesiveness overall because it would give him more ways to take advantage of his generally strong aerials and punish game, but it would have clear counterplay that requires forethought and intelligence. It gives Ganon more opportunities to take advantage of his strong tech chase game. It would make his Flame Choke become even more powerful because it can now serve as a mix-up when up close to an opponent. It keeps the theme of Ganon alive and preserves what people like about him while giving him more options for approaching opponents.
Vashimus
Smash Master
Ganon should get Slide Head.