Tier List Speculation

[Hinichii.ez.™]

@Lordling plz silence this guy

 

[Spralwers]

For Ganon's aerial down B, he just needs a hitbox+disjoint at his foot.

 

[Ace55]

Ganon needs something to spice up his neutral game. A better recovery, a disjointed aerial Wizards foot or Brawl upsmash aren't gonna help much.

 

[King of Hoboz]

This. ^

Ganon's Down-B is already really amazing. I find that if Ganon can actually make himself threatening, stealing space somehow until they can't run from a mix-up of Down-B and Side-B is incredibly good. Its just that Ganon isn't very threatening due to his poor movement and tendency to just get hit by things.

Either Ganon needs the Ike treatment and he needs some way to gain bursts of flexible mobility (I say no), a slightly faster run, a good OoS option, or a new move that prevents people from just running in and poking him at inopportune moments. Honestly, I feel just 1 or 2 (maybe) would be enough to clear Ganon's bad name.

 

[HaZarD2kv]

Jump cancel his kool-aid kick? Lol, that would be too good.

 

[didds]

Let's give Ganon a shell shift, that'll help his neutral

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Let's give Ganon a shell shift, that'll help his neutral

My idea was to give him oil like Hakan in Street Fighter 4. Ganon looks like he could be from Turkey, right?

 

[didds]

My idea was to give him oil like Hakan in Street Fighter 4. Ganon looks like he could be from Turkey, right?

I'd say him being from Turkey is more reasonable than the rest of the cast, I admit that an oiled Ganon might be detrimental to the appearance-metagame though.

Oiled Ganon= top tier attractiveness

 

[MLGF]

I think Ganondorf just needs some sort of armor on a few of his moves. Light armor on his forward air sounds really dangerous for example.

 

[Mew2King]

few things i want to say

1) DK is pretty darn good in this game imo. I just picked up him today (my first time ever using him in PM was this morning, a few hours ago). I JV 5 stocked a roy with him already after just a few games

2) I tested Link's grab and pivot grab really quick (from the timer and compared to marth's counter), and they seemed to be about either exactly a second, or barely more. which is around like 60-70 frames for both (prob 60). I don't know where you guys (Hylian) are saying it is 80 or 90 for. Not what I am experiencing at all. It's true that I only tested it for like a minute (not much to compare from unlike Melee where I have more to compare from), but I would really double check Link's grab and pivot grab (I forgot to test dash grab); they seem about a second, or barely more if at all.

EDIT - Okay so what happened is hylian agreed it was 85 frames simply because it was an argument against me, then tested it himself to see they were both about 1 second. K. well idc anymore, but it IS hard to punish in many situations, and that is what my experience has tested me. Enough that you CAN actually spam it from a distance and still buffer dodge/roll to escape, unless they are waiting for specifically the grab.

3) in response to "maybe the guy didn't get a chance to come out and compete" - these are only true in RARE cases in my experiences. Over my 9 years playing tournaments and 12 years playing melee, the VAST majority of people who claim to be good, end up being quite terrible and just don't know what they are talking about. It's only extremely rare cases when some unknown guy comes out of nowhere and does really good. Like less than 10% of the time probably in what I've seen over the years.

It makes more sense to wait until someone proves themselves, than to give every single person the benefit of the doubt, due to this.

With that said, a person can still become smarter and more skilled over time if they have a great ability to learn. If I was judged as a newb from my first 2 tourneys in 2005, while good for a newb, I was nothing compared to the top 3 or so in the world at that time. It's because I was able to learn from my experiences well and realize what to do to improve that lead to reaching a full potential. However, at THAT point in time, my understanding of competitive smash (due to lack of experience or other reasons) was much less than it is now. I would trust the doctor with 30 years experience over the doctor that is still in school or just graduated, for example. They've had opportunities to learn more. Maybe a bad example but perhaps you can know what I mean.

It's your ability to learn which is a major factor in how far you will go

this is easily done by just playing friendlies all day against any/everyone.

Plenty of opportunities to learn.

And I also think most of Melee/PM characters are untapped.

The only characters truely taken to the extreme are the Melee top tiers for the most part. And that's because the top/smart players invested in characters capable of winning. I'll go back to the example of Dr.PeePee. there's a high chance he could be the best Roy if he wanted to. Instead I'm probably the best roy but I guarantee that a BIG reason for this is because there is almost no competition for the title "best roy". Me/PP invested into marth over roy because Roy is pointless to use in tournament over marth or other characters.

Being the best Zelda in Brawl for example is 10 times easier than being the best Metaknight or Ice climbers, because any talented/smart player (at least, the vast majority of talented/smart players) will invest their time into characters that can win.

Another example, I'm most likely 2nd best fox in melee, and most likely best roy in melee. But my fox, skillwise and mastery-wise, is far beyond that of my roy. There are simply no Roy's that are what I would call "great" or even good. The character is capable of so much more. There is a great deal of competition for best fox. The title "2nd best fox" means a LOT more than the title "best roy", due to how taken-to-the-extreme-of-mastery the character Fox is already.

PP mains Marth in PM because he spent so much time and theorycraft on Marth ALREADY from melee, and the character is almost the same so it gets to carry over. Outside of matchup knowledge, me/pp's marths are probably far more mastered to marth's full potential in PM than say <insert random character> like Ness is taken to Ness's full potential in PM.

 

[azzucips]

M2K (and you) are fools for not even considering there may be players in melee that do not play the spacies or a good character. Lazarond could very well play link in melee and you and M2K are saying that because he couldn't make it to the top of melee with Link or become famous that he is less skilled and "should" lose to Kels.

Kels is a great fox, but does he have Years of experience of what new link can do? absolutely not and neither does M2K. his options have changed dramatically and what I hear is that because kels could probably shut down laz's link in melee, he should shut down his link in PM which is stupid to hear

Lazarond mains Pichu However, he's been picking up YL, and he beat some random sheik player at a WDW one day rofl. Then I completely annihilated him.

I think Hylian said Link's grab is 62 frames . Pivot grab is 58.

 

[HaZarD2kv]

I honestly hate the idea of armor. No one should have free retaliation to a move that causes major hit-stun. It's one of the things I hate the most about PM. It pretty much means that you have to grab the character more. I would rather see Squirtle have disjointed hitboxes than armor.

 

[Terotrous]

Are we really talking about buffing Falco?

The character who most people agree to still be number 2 in the game?

TBQH I think that's just Melee talking. He doesn't really have the results or the theory fighter to back it up in PM.

Ganon needs something to spice up his neutral game. A better recovery, a disjointed aerial Wizards foot or Brawl upsmash aren't gonna help much.

Well the horizontal Wizard's Foot would definitely do that. It is kinda similar to Quick Draw, though with much more commitment.

 

[Mew2King]

I find my falco to do better vs a lot of people than my fox, despite my fox, skillwise, being like 10 times better. a charizard and a rob both 2 stocked my fox in money matches and tourney matches yet when I go falco i get 2 stock mid % and 3 stock low %. These are only the examples that stuck out to me off the top of my head. But my falco should never do better than my fox imo, because I have fox mastered to the extreme so much more. I play fox a LOT in melee/PM. My most used in PM for sure (mewtwo might be 2nd idk). I actually think I play fox in PM more than i play fox in melee (I'm usually playing sheik/marth in melee; sheik more so but i should use marth more since im a lil' rusty w/ him).

 

[Mew2King]

Lazarond mains Pichu However, he's been picking up YL, and he beat some random sheik player at a WDW one day rofl. Then I completely annihilated him.

I think Hylian said Link's grab is 62 frames . Pivot grab is 58.

didn't someone say that the pivot grab was like 80 or something?

 

[Terotrous]

I find my falco to do better vs a lot of people than my fox, despite my fox, skillwise, being like 10 times better. a charizard and a rob both 2 stocked my fox in money matches and tourney matches yet when I go falco i get 2 stock mid % and 3 stock low %.

Could easily be the matchup, Charizard in particular is enormous and obviously super susceptible to the pillar combo, so Falco might well do better against him than Fox. Not sure about ROB, though he does have an amazing recovery that can't be stopped by much, except possibly for Falco Dair. Matchup experience is also a possibility, if those were Brawl players they might not have a lot of experience against Falco, because he hasn't been too common in PM so far. On the other hand, Fox is quite common so most people know that matchup.

The thing with Fox isn't that he dominates in every match, he usually just goes even or a bit above against everyone, but the ability to perform well in every matchup is still super valuable. Falco seems like someone who would have more volatility in his matchups, there's probably some he wins really handily, but also some that he would lose.

 

[MLGF]

^
Project M might as well stand for Project Matchup.

 

[HaZarD2kv]

I agree with you M2K, Fox just doesn't seem right in PM. We played at KiT and Mewtwo was much more of a versatile threat than Fox was. It could be that other characters have more options? Falco on the other hand, his laser game transferred well into PM. I'm so confuzzled as to why Fox made the top of the list.....

 

[Juushichi]

I know basically no one plays the game, but I liken Fox in PM to Setsuki in the card game Yomi (but v2, not v1) in the sense that they're strong and have a bunch of options, but don't absolutely lock down opposing characters like they did in an earlier version.

There are obviously some things that don't work as well in Fox's case (uthrow uair), various characters that do/don't fall over from shine, range increases, general success vs his weight/fall speed. Still, I think that Fox has the best neutral game... in well, the game. The way that neutral works is much different than it was in Melee, however. I am not a top player by any stretch, but I feel like Fox players haven't adjusted their range enough. His punishes are still mostly as potent as they were before.

In contrast, I think a lot of the new characters have "fake-er" neutral games and a heavier punish game (iirc, Reflex believes this as well) that will only be highlighted more and more over time.

The fact that Fox now generally has more (idk gonna throw out numbers here) 55-45/50-50 MUs than 6-4 or better is absolutely more significant than it used to be. You're really going to have to know your **** and for a character that "spawns at kill %", only goes as well as your tech is that day and etc, this is going to make it seem like he's not as good. But this was the same stuff we talked about in Melee, wasn't it?

 

[The_NZA]

I find my falco to do better vs a lot of people than my fox, despite my fox, skillwise, being like 10 times better. a charizard and a rob both 2 stocked my fox in money matches and tourney matches yet when I go falco i get 2 stock mid % and 3 stock low %. These are only the examples that stuck out to me off the top of my head. But my falco should never do better than my fox imo, because I have fox mastered to the extreme so much more. I play fox a LOT in melee/PM. My most used in PM for sure (mewtwo might be 2nd idk). I actually think I play fox in PM more than i play fox in melee (I'm usually playing sheik/marth in melee; sheik more so but i should use marth more since im a lil' rusty w/ him).

Honestly, that's really easily explainable. Falco and Fox die by their mistakes, and win when they make minimal amounts of them. PM matches you against situations you haven't experienced/ don't know how to optimally handle FAR MORE than melee due to 41 viable characters. Therefore, the frequency of you "making a mistake" is much larger until you learn every matchup as well as you know your melee matchups.

Falco's laser gives you more breathing room and a buffer to make less mistakes. Meanwhile, Fox HAS to commit into someone in order to do damage. Therefore, it's easier to make a mistake with Fox than Falco, especially in a game where you haven't 100% downloaded your opponent.

Sometimes saying "I win x amount with this character but don't win as much with this one" isn't a valid ruler stick to measure character balance. Afterall, part of why someone like Hbox used Ness against Armada's young Link in Apex 2013 isn't because Ness is necessarily a better matchup against Ylink than Jiggs. It's because he was likely to force Armada to make more mistakes against a character he had never played against.

 

[Paradoxium]

So what makes Fox's neutral game the best against every character? Sorry im a bit of a newb

 

[The_NZA]

^
Project M might as well stand for Project Matchup.

Melee was Super Smash Matchup as well for its first few years. Until everyone learned to deal with Shiek and Marth, Jiggs learned to deal with Fox, IC's learned to deal with their AI, Peach learned to deal with Falcon, etc. Lack of matchup knowledge inevitably leads to "Super Smash Matchup" since matchup knowledge IS half the battle.

 

[Mew2King]

Ok I see,

I agree with you M2K, Fox just doesn't seem right in PM. We played at KiT and Mewtwo was much more of a versatile threat than Fox was. It could be that other characters have more options? Falco on the other hand, his laser game transferred well into PM. I'm so confuzzled as to why Fox made the top of the list.....

cuz i won like every tourney with fox lol (altho i use a LOT of chars every tourney most people only post Fox on the results pages i noticed. I also notice that PM "pros" who don't come from a melee background have NO IDEA what they're doing vs fox/falco).

and top melee pros, who a lot of which use fox, make a strong, but not that strong transition into PM (they do well cuz they're top players that used the char for 100s/1000s of hours), which should be expected but still surprises people

and yeah PM is very counterpick based game imo

in response to "knowing the matchup" i disagree. Fast fallers are characters that should be hit VERY HARD when they get hit. Most people do not take their hits as far as they can go.

example - when you hit a floaty, you will still hit them once or twice. A mediocre marth in FD might do a 30% chain grab to fox on FD. Since I know how to take my hits far (and it's all 100% guaranteed unless I mess up), I can guarantee a 0-80 at very least (or mixups like ken combo instead of smash, etc). Fast fallers will get hit REALLY hard when they get hit. The fact I get away from only being hit with tiny combos, to me, proves that people aren't that good at the game yet. )I actually feel this way about pretty much everyone, in every smash game, besides the top top players of each game. but it applies even more to PM since it's way newer and less mastered and more unexplored). At least not in combos/followups/etc.

Hits could be taken WAY further.

 

[ShadowGanon]

...I am not a top player by any stretch, but I feel like Fox players haven't adjusted their range enough...

 

[HaZarD2kv]

Makes sense, you transfer your knowledge of a previous game into a new one and there are bound to be some differences. Match-ups, new mechanics, new characters and such. I'm not shocked at how well melee players (being one myself) do in PM, it's just that so many people play Fox in both games that I don't see why him ranking low from a lot of players in tournament doesn't affect his placement. I also don't fully comprehend tier lists, which is why these questions are being asked.

 

[Empyrean]

In regards to all this Ganon talk, I think it might be a good idea to give him a grab (I mean, you can't flame choke all the time).

 

[Mew2King]

I only play fox in PM cuz I had played fox so long in melee. I had an amazing starting point, so i just invested into the character completely from there

Had wolf been in melee and fox not in melee, I would be playing wolf in PM instead. I think wolf is prob better, but no really good wolf player yet

and by no really good wolf player i mean, if someone of armada's calibur picked up wolf he would pretty much instantly be the best wolf

may or may not be an exaggeration i don't know, but you get what I'm saying.

 

[Terotrous]

So what makes Fox's neutral game the best against every character? Sorry im a bit of a newb

Don't see where people were saying "the best", rather it's just the case that his neutral game is adequate / strong against every character. There are clearly characters whose worst matchup is not against Fox (ie, Jigglypuff fears Mewtwo / Ivy way more than Fox), but Fox is pretty much never an easy matchup for anyone.

 

[SixSaw]

No one should have free retaliation to a move that causes major hit-stun.

I agree, crouch canceling is pretty dumb.

 

[HaZarD2kv]

Sixsaw, you can punish crouch cancel with grabs though, they force you into another kind of animation, especially if it's strong. That's how Shiek and Falcon can F-air to grab.

 

[Plum]

What was that thing? Forever ago... the Samus windmill. Invincibility on something on her dash attack? lol

Ganon's dash attack is so fast, armor on that would be crazy! It just might work...


Leave Falco as he is. Brawl players kinda don't matter Kappa

Ganon can't handle the Windmill of Fury. NOBODY CAN HANDLE THE WINDMILL OF FURY.

 

[NickRiddle]

The Windmill of Fury is even better in this game.

 

[trash?]

in response to "knowing the matchup" i disagree. Fast fallers are characters that should be hit VERY HARD when they get hit. Most people do not take their hits as far as they can go.

example - when you hit a floaty, you will still hit them once or twice. A mediocre marth in FD might do a 30% chain grab to fox on FD. Since I know how to take my hits far (and it's all 100% guaranteed unless I mess up), I can guarantee a 0-80 at very least (or mixups like ken combo instead of smash, etc). Fast fallers will get hit REALLY hard when they get hit. The fact I get away from only being hit with tiny combos, to me, proves that people aren't that good at the game yet. )I actually feel this way about pretty much everyone, in every smash game, besides the top top players of each game. but it applies even more to PM since it's way newer and less mastered and more unexplored). At least not in combos/followups/etc.

Hits could be taken WAY further.

not the biggest fan regardless, but this bit is spot-on. there was a lucas theory video done in TAS a while back that does murderous pressure that would make a TAS space animal weep slowly, but nobody is close to that level of tech skill with him yet

 

[didds]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOdcF_bOrvs

this is the lucas vid, correct?

 

[Ripple]

"most people can't take spacies 0-death like I can on FD, people need to take their punish games farther"

you know, I would agree, IF spacies ever let me take them to FD. like really? the only reason spacies ever get punished that hard is

1. because they don't know to ban FD, meaning they are terrible.

2. They made t to winners finals and are against an amazing opponent who can do that AND take them to FD.

the PM ruleset does not let Fox get taken to FD and a huge weakness of his is removed

 

[Ace55]

Well the horizontal Wizard's Foot would definitely do that. It is kinda similar to Quick Draw, though with much more commitment.

How is a horizontal aerial downB gonna help his neutral game much? Hell, outside of recovery or a godly read when would you use it over aerial sideB?

In regards to all this Ganon talk, I think it might be a good idea to give him a grab (I mean, you can't flame choke all the time).

Ganon having arguably the best downthrow in the game makes me kind of hesitant to directly buff his grab.

 

[trash?]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOdcF_bOrvs

this is the lucas vid, correct?

nah, that was... 2.1, last I remember. there was one based off of shield pressure from 2.5 or 2.6, and it had some amazing stuff happen

for example, discharging after charging your neutral b didn't count as a hitbox, but it still pushed opponents, so you can break their shield, discharge while they're still in the air, and if you push them off the edge, they'll just fall to their death. incredibly gimmicky, but also incredibly funny to watch

e: you also get stuff like this. his tech skill ceiling is massive right now

 

[Empyrean]

Ganon having arguably the best downthrow in the game makes me kind of hesitant to directly buff his grab.

While the throws themselves are excellent, Ganon's grab range is ridiculously short. Extending it a bit won't make him broken or anything. Either way, it's just a suggestion, albeit a more realistic one than other buff suggestions I've seen.

 

[CORY]

really, just make it lower. too may things just go under it for free (i.e. mario's dash attack ;x).

i'm not mad about shorties crouching under it, just random attacks that are entirely safe against ganon because he can't grab them at all, on top of having overall crappy oos options.

 

[didds]

Lucas seems amazing to me, I've heard that landing the first hit outta neutral is where he struggles, but idk man, he's so quick. And his hands just be shinin and s**t and all of a sudden I'm blastin off again, wondering how he combo'd me into Usmash again...

Not my best matchup